Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Belt Drive Steam Engines?

4306 views
22 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Maryville IL
  • 9,577 posts
Belt Drive Steam Engines?
Posted by cudaken on Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:31 AM

 Does not sound like a good idea to me. Have looked at a few PK 2 and new Bachmann with sound that have belt drive. Is it a gemmick belt like I have on my GMC 6-71 Supercharge with teeth? Or just a rubber band like the old Athearn?

 

 Cuda Ken

I hate Rust

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Wylie, TX
  • 238 posts
Posted by SqueakyWheels on Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:35 AM
Yes, the Bachmann has a belt similar to your supercharger's drive belt, only in miniature; plus, the mini drive belt would be made from neoprene whereas the belt on your suprecharger is made from reinforced rubber.
Tim _______________________________ Our Father is MY PILOT!!!!
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: US
  • 429 posts
Posted by train18393 on Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:50 AM

Kuda Ken,

The belt has square cogs on it, but not all the way across like the one driving that roots blower. If you have ever looked at prototype steam engines you will notice that there is nothing between the boiler and the chassis, such as a drive shaft and a worm and worm gear. There may be a few linkages, and the leaf springs above the chassis, but that is about it. It looks like a 62 Falcon with spring shackels in the back. Lots of air and not much else. This is especially evident on a engine with small drivers. The belt drive makes this visual cue that there is really an electric motor in the firebox that much less evident. I have a couple that have many smiles on them and have never had a problem with one. Replacement belts are available, and I did get spare ones just in case, because parts availability may be questionable. Not that think that they will be, but insurance is nice to have. I am guessing the belt is about 1/4" wide with the cog holes about 3/16 wide, and it is made out of some sort of nylon kind of stuff. 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: US
  • 625 posts
Posted by jondrd on Sunday, February 11, 2007 6:02 AM

 I believe the belt on your supercharger is a Gilmer not gemmick, although the normally aspirated crowd would probably call it a gimmick.

 Jon Cool [8D]

  

"We have met the enemy and he is us" Pogo via the art of Walt Kelly
  • Member since
    March 2002
  • From: Elgin, IL
  • 3,677 posts
Posted by orsonroy on Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:44 PM
 cudaken wrote:

 Does not sound like a good idea to me. Have looked at a few PK 2 and new Bachmann with sound that have belt drive. Is it a gemmick belt like I have on my GMC 6-71 Supercharge with teeth? Or just a rubber band like the old Athearn?

The "gimmick" that Bachmann's using on their drive belts is that they'll outlive your car! They're sattelite-grade drive servo belts.

Ray Breyer

Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: Saginaw River
  • 948 posts
Posted by jsoderq on Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:12 PM
If you follow the Bachmann boards you are aware they are not near as infallible as you estimate and there was a very severe problem with availability for a time.
  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: THE FAR, FAR REACHES OF THE WILD, WILD WEST!
  • 3,672 posts
Posted by R. T. POTEET on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:01 PM

I have little mechanical skills when it comes to automobiles - a clutch, accelerator, and brake pedals and a steering wheel pretty well puts it all together for me; don't really care to know anything else beyond that.  Maybe it is because I am in N-Scale and we don't do things that way but I have read this post and five responses and I still don't have the slightest idea what the aitch anyone is talking about; can someone take just a brief moment to explain this to me.

I know that Tiger Valley Models - who is, apparently, still in business -  uses a chain drive mechanism on their die-cast ALCO diesel locomotive models and many years ago I encountered a photo of a chain-drive/belt drive on a steam locomotive.  This particular loke, if memory serves me correctly, was O-Scale and the chain/belt was driven off of a bevel mechanism and drove the driving axle on the running gear.  This was, apparently, a carryover from a technology current in the thirties.

Athearn - did they inherit this mechanism from Globe perchance? - used to use rubber band drive on their Hustler and RDCs but, in this case, the rubber band was a "spit ball' flipper and twisted to change the drive alignment by 90º.  Back in 1982 I was working at one of the local hobby shops and we got some RDCs from the last time Athearn would ever produce these units; one guy was skeptical when I told him about the rubber band drive so I pulled a shell.  His countenance changed from "Getouttahere" to "NowI'veseeneverything" quicker than it takes to tell about it.

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Maryville IL
  • 9,577 posts
Posted by cudaken on Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:44 PM

 R.T., if you look at the belt that goes to the top gear you will see theeth in the belt and gear. Keeps the belt from slipping.

      Thanks for the answer folks, as normal you guys are great.

                             Cuda Ken, thinking about Mopar again.    

I hate Rust

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: THE FAR, FAR REACHES OF THE WILD, WILD WEST!
  • 3,672 posts
Posted by R. T. POTEET on Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:10 PM
 cudaken wrote:

 R.T., if you look at the belt that goes to the top gear you will see theeth in the belt and gear. Keeps the belt from slipping.

      Thanks for the answer folks, as normal you guys are great.

                             Cuda Ken, thinking about Mopar again.    



cudaken, I understand about belts and I understand about teeth and I understand about friction; one of the early computers on which I worked had a belt and pulley drum drive; this drum had to move in excess of two hundred and fifty thousand revolutions per hour; that is seventy revolutions per second.  The diameter of that drum was approximately twenty six inches.  The surface speed of that drum was very close to three hundred and twenty-five miles per hour.  Not as fast as a bullet, perhaps, but definitely faster than your R/T.

I am experiencing difficulty understanding the relationship between belts and Bachmann (steam) locomotives!!!

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • 4,368 posts
Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:26 PM

 cudaken wrote:
Does not sound like a good idea to me. Have looked at a few PK 2 and new Bachmann with sound that have belt drive. Is it a gemmick belt like I have on my GMC 6-71 Supercharge with teeth? Or just a rubber band like the old Athearn?

Like the other members have said, it is a cogged neoprene belt, similar to what's used by NASA. I've never heard of a belt failing in a Spectrum steamer, and the only things that would ever cause the belt to fail are oil and cutting tools.Big Smile [:D] I have a Bachmann 2-8-0, and it is the quietest, smoothest running steam engine I own.Big Smile [:D]

P.S. Nice car.Big Smile [:D]

_________________________________________________________________

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 2,268 posts
Posted by NeO6874 on Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:45 PM
 R. T. POTEET wrote:
 cudaken wrote:

 R.T., if you look at the belt that goes to the top gear you will see theeth in the belt and gear. Keeps the belt from slipping.

      Thanks for the answer folks, as normal you guys are great.

                             Cuda Ken, thinking about Mopar again.    



cudaken, I understand about belts and I understand about teeth and I understand about friction; one of the early computers on which I worked had a belt and pulley drum drive; this drum had to move in excess of two hundred and fifty thousand revolutions per hour; that is seventy revolutions per second.  The diameter of that drum was approximately twenty six inches.  The surface speed of that drum was very close to three hundred and twenty-five miles per hour.  Not as fast as a bullet, perhaps, but definitely faster than your R/T.

I am experiencing difficulty understanding the relationship between belts and Bachmann (steam) locomotives!!!

 

I think the main question was along the lines of "why is bachmann going BACK to belt-drives?!".  Athearn used belt drives on old locos (OK, rubber bands) and they were really bad, and since the worm drives/gear towers are so good, it would appear that belt drives are a couple of steps backwards... 

-Dan

Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Ohio
  • 1,615 posts
Posted by Virginian on Monday, February 12, 2007 4:30 AM
The first answer said it; Bachmann used a belt drive so they had less drive "stuff" showing between the boiler and the frame, to be more prototypically accurate.  Mine work fine.  I guess if and when they fail I will have to come up with an alternative.  A friend had one break on him.  Apparently, some of B'mans belts have some defects.  He cut a tiny piece of fiberglass reinforced packing tape and wrapped around the belt.  He put a drop of ACC (if I remember right) on the broken ends of the belt. and a drop of epoxy on the ends of the tape to help the glue.  It's working so far.  I plan to try wrapping it with dental floss and painting with diluted rubber cement if I ever have to resort to something.  I have no idea if it will work.  Anything should work better than the old pancake motors.
What could have happened.... did.
  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 398 posts
Posted by msowsun on Monday, February 12, 2007 6:04 AM

Athearn used belt drives on old locos (OK, rubber bands) and they were really bad, and since the worm drives/gear towers are so good, it would appear that belt drives are a couple of steps backwards... 

Athearn used rubber bands instead of gears. Very bad....

Bachmann used a cogged belt drive to elevate the worm shaft out of sight. Very good......  

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2002
  • From: Milwaukee WI (Fox Point)
  • 11,439 posts
Posted by dknelson on Monday, February 12, 2007 8:06 AM

Distant and ancient memory is that Lindberg used a belt drive, using a metal tubular belt that looked sort of like a spring, in a pulley-like wheel, to power their SW switcher.  Back in the day -- and I mean before my day -- lots of O gauge trolley and interurban cars used a belt drive mechanism, sometimes a chain and gear rather like a bicycle chain, so there would be no splip.   I also recall someone coming out with similar chain and sprocket made of tough plastic.  Sometimes in O scale one axle would be geared and the power transferred to the other axle by chain or belt. 

Similarly distant and ancient memory is that someone wrote an article for MR about how to create a working booster unit in a tender (in HO) that used belt drive.    

Dave Nelson

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Amish country Tenn.
  • 10,027 posts
Posted by loathar on Monday, February 12, 2007 10:24 AM
Don't know about the steamer belts, but being a Mopar fan I know that is one SWEET looking Charger!
  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Monday, February 12, 2007 10:41 AM

Ozone is lethal to many petroleum and rubber products.  Your motor, being nearby, produces ozone as a result of its operation using electricity.  So, your rubber, or petroleum derivative, belt is always in a somewhat hostile environment when your locomotive is performing.  Also, as we most know, your drivers are arcing with the tracks from time-to-time, and the tiny sparks also produce copious quantities of ozone. It is no wonder that some belts succumb to the ozone at some point.

I believe it might be a wise idea to secure a small supply of them for one's favourite locos that use them.  Even then, seal them away from oxygen, UV, and ozone.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 3,264 posts
Posted by CAZEPHYR on Monday, February 12, 2007 11:01 AM
 selector wrote:

Ozone is lethal to many petroleum and rubber products.  Your motor, being nearby, produces ozone as a result of its operation using electricity.  So, your rubber, or petroleum derivative, belt is always in a somewhat hostile environment when your locomotive is performing.  Also, as we most know, your drivers are arcing with the tracks from time-to-time, and the tiny sparks also produce copious quantities of ozone. It is no wonder that some belts succumb to the ozone at some point.

I believe it might be a wise idea to secure a small supply of them for one's favourite locos that use them.  Even then, seal them away from oxygen, UV, and ozone.

 

I had read the belts can cause drive problems if they are stored for long periods of time without being rotated.  I had purchased one of their models and was not happy with the running qualities of the belt drive and junked the model.  

Some O scale models had sort of the same arrangement with a chain type of drive that really did work well. 

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Ohio
  • 1,615 posts
Posted by Virginian on Monday, February 12, 2007 11:26 AM

Apropos of nothing, we have been changing out a lot of "silent chain" type drives at work in favor of timing belt drives.  Quieter, wear less and create less wear, suck less power, and transmit less vibration to the bearings, resulting in longer trouble free drive train wear.  I would think the benefits would be the same with 0.0001 horsepower motors like our models or 100 horsepower units like at work.  I suspect a lot of our old brush motors generate a lot of ozone too, but it does not appear to be eating our timing belts.  Gotta plug that hole over Antarctica don't you know.

Feel free to prefer the old gear towers, but don't try to make out like there is something inherently wrong with these belt drives.

What could have happened.... did.
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: San Jose, California
  • 3,154 posts
Posted by nfmisso on Monday, February 12, 2007 1:35 PM
Quite a few Harley Davidson motorcycles have belt drive.......
Nigel N&W in HO scale, 1950 - 1955 (..and some a bit newer too) Now in San Jose, California
  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: St. Louis, MO
  • 941 posts
Posted by river_eagle on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:32 PM

As my Spectrum 2-8-0s are quickly closing in on their tenth anniversery on my layout, the only failure having to do with the belt drive even remotely, occured when I noticed the pulling power of one of the units seemed to suddenly drop off considerably. 

running light no problems, but pulling load, would stop at bottom of the grade.

I thought to myself, it's that *** belt drive is slipping!, I wonder how much that's going to cost to fix!!

opened the loco and the belt was perfect, the glue for the flywheel had let go, and under load the motor shaft was slipping inside the flywheel. 

a little stupid glue on the shaft and right back into service, no further problems. 

When in doubt, rule #1 applies  Central Missouri Railroad Association cmrraclub.com
  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Maryville IL
  • 9,577 posts
Posted by cudaken on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:49 PM

 Thanks for the answers folks. Guess I take a try with the new Bachmann's with sound.

 As far as the hard drive being faster than my Charger, OK 325 MPH is fast. But can the hard drive rip the rear tires in 3rd gear at 30 MPH?Approve [^]

                  Cuda Ken

I hate Rust

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: St. Louis, MO
  • 941 posts
Posted by river_eagle on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:58 PM
with the weather today, it probally could!!!!Laugh [(-D]
When in doubt, rule #1 applies  Central Missouri Railroad Association cmrraclub.com
  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: THE FAR, FAR REACHES OF THE WILD, WILD WEST!
  • 3,672 posts
Posted by R. T. POTEET on Friday, February 16, 2007 8:15 PM
 cudaken wrote:

 Thanks for the answers folks. Guess I take a try with the new Bachmann's with sound.

 As far as the hard drive being faster than my Charger, OK 325 MPH is fast. But can the hard drive rip the rear tires in 3rd gear at 30 MPH?Approve [^]

                  Cuda Ken



Sure!!!!Six times a week and twice on Sunday!!!

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!