Counting rivets

[wjstix]

Maybe a rivet counter is someone intensly interested in the correctness of his own modelling, a nitpicker is someone who is overly interested in someone else's level of correctness??

[Shilshole]

Well, sure, there's much to agree with here, especially your last paragraph.

On the other hand,

People can't simply increase their supplies of time and money to match the "higher" standards set by rivet counters.  In the same way that no one in the real world likes acknowledging that they don't have the money to do something, no one on this site likes being reminded that the best they can do given their resource constraints just isn't up to someone else's "standards."

Why do you think you have to even concern yourself with what skilled protoype researchers/modelers can achieve?   More importantly, who is 'reminding' anybody that their best doesn't meet some standard?  My own standard is internal, inspired but not dictated by others' achievements, and shaped by my own external constraints such as time and budget.  Who, on this site, is reminding you of your limitations?  Or is it simply by virtue of others posting their accomplishments that you feel your modeling is below some 'standard'?

[whitman500]

Well, sure, there's much to agree with here, especially your last paragraph.

On the other hand,

People can't simply increase their supplies of time and money to match the "higher" standards set by rivet counters.  In the same way that no one in the real world likes acknowledging that they don't have the money to do something, no one on this site likes being reminded that the best they can do given their resource constraints just isn't up to someone else's "standards."

Why do you think you have to even concern yourself with what skilled protoype researchers/modelers can achieve?   More importantly, who is 'reminding' anybody that their best doesn't meet some standard?  My own standard is internal, inspired but not dictated by others' achievements, and shaped by my own external constraints such as time and budget.  Who, on this site, is reminding you of your limitations?  Or is it simply by virtue of others posting their accomplishments that you feel your modeling is below some 'standard'?

I was responding to (and disagreeing with) a post that said: "rivet counters set a standard worth aspiring to."  Aren't you saying the same thing? 

[Don Gibson]

We ALL set some sort of acceptance standards for ourselves. The problem seemingly becomes when they may not match someone else's. - DG

"If you wanted to paint your Genesis Big Boy pink with purple polka dots and run Amtrak decorated heavyweight  passenger cars behind it, that is your business".

I'd like it!  Where can I find some (ah one ah two)  'polka dotted' paint?

 

[Shilshole]

I was responding to (and disagreeing with) a post that said: "rivet counters set a standard worth aspiring to."  Aren't you saying the same thing? 

Sure, to the extent that modeling 'standards' in this hobby can be established by and imposed on anyone.

But then you turned 180 degrees and objected to being reminded of failing to meet some 'standards'.  Would you care to answer the questions I asked about that part of your post, the part that once again invokes some undocumented behavior on the part of some unnamed entities?  I'd like to know who these reminders are.  I haven't seen this happening, but it's possible that my browser is dropping posts, and I'd like to track down the source of the problem.

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

A nitpicker counts other peoples' rivets.  That is a problem.  A rivel counter counts his own rivets.  That is ok.  In the end he probably improves the availability of good models for the reast of us, who are neither.

[Train Master]

my neighbor 'chris' claims to be a rivet counter but hes just a nit picker. he runs his trains by tight schedules that match as closely as possible the actual railroad he models and says that anybody who doesnt do it his way is wrong. my oldest freind, jeff, runs his trains any way he wants to. chris told him hes wrong and cant call himself a model railroader. jeff told him to commit a physically impossible act then to go jump in the lake (only 400 feet away). jeff hates nit-pickers by the way. chris is so deadset in his belief about most modelers not bein such that he wont join a forum because they are all (i use his exact words) a bunch of children who dont know squat. needless to say many disagree with him and some other wish he would just vanish. jeff (jeffrey wimberly) gave him a black eye one day for not keepin his mouth nailed shut about the kcs railroad. chris need to go get a friggin life.

[Paul3]

Train Master,
This guy "chris"...why don't you just ignore him?

Edit: I deleted my text about punching people when I found out that Train Master forgot to include the tidbit about Jeff defending himself when he slugged this "Chris" guy.  Self defense is always allowed IMHO.  Sorry, Jeff.

Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
Edited by Paul3 at 8:44PM 11/3/06

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Paul: What Trainmaster didn't tell you was that 'Chris' physically attacked me for not running my layout in a "correct and prototypical manner". I was defending myself. If you want unacceptable behavior, try this. 'Chris' physically attacked a man who is disabled and can't walk without special equipment. I was fully justified in giving him his just desserts. As for him being a nit-picker, that's with a capital 'N'.

[howmus]

Paul: What Trainmaster didn't tell you was that 'Chris' physically attacked me for not running my layout in a "correct and prototypical manner". I was defending myself. If you want unacceptable behavior, try this. 'Chris' physically attacked a man who is disabled and can't walk without special equipment. I was fully justified in giving him his just desserts. As for him being a nit-picker, that's with a capital 'N'.

If it were me, I would permanently "uninvite" the guy from visiting my layout.  My layout is based in the Finger Lakes in 1925.  That said, you want to bring over one of them diseasal type thingys and run it here?  Come on over, we will both have some fun.  Oh by the way could someone please tell me if I have the correct number of rivits and stuff on this loco.  Please let me know if the painting and company logo are not right.  This is a 2-6-6-2 used on the Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western Railroad back in August of 1925.  I want this to be absolutely prototypical.  Your nit picking..... opps, help is appreciated.  Thank You!

[andrechapelon]

Paul: What Trainmaster didn't tell you was that 'Chris' physically attacked me for not running my layout in a "correct and prototypical manner". I was defending myself. If you want unacceptable behavior, try this. 'Chris' physically attacked a man who is disabled and can't walk without special equipment. I was fully justified in giving him his just desserts. As for him being a nit-picker, that's with a capital 'N'.

'Chris' sounds more like a psychopath with a capital 'P'.

Andre

[BRAKIE]

Paul: What Trainmaster didn't tell you was that 'Chris' physically attacked me for not running my layout in a "correct and prototypical manner". I was defending myself. If you want unacceptable behavior, try this. 'Chris' physically attacked a man who is disabled and can't walk without special equipment. I was fully justified in giving him his just desserts. As for him being a nit-picker, that's with a capital 'N'.

 

While I don't like to butt in on another's fight I would have knocked him a flip or two myself..Not because of his views but,because of his cowardly attack on a weaker person..

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Paul: What Trainmaster didn't tell you was that 'Chris' physically attacked me for not running my layout in a "correct and prototypical manner". I was defending myself. If you want unacceptable behavior, try this. 'Chris' physically attacked a man who is disabled and can't walk without special equipment. I was fully justified in giving him his just desserts. As for him being a nit-picker, that's with a capital 'N'.

If it were me, I would permanently "uninvite" the guy from visiting my layout.

I did. He is persona non-grata here.

[tomikawaTT]

Jeffrey

Like your attacker, I insist on operating as closely as possible to my prototype's published timetable.  Unlike him, I don't expect anyone else to do the same.

Learning what I needed to know about that timetable, then adapting it to my modeling, used up a lot of time that could have been used in other ways.  For example, I could have added about a gazillion rivets to my virtually undetailed fleet of boxcars, to match the few that came with them from the manufacturer.

OTOH, those rivets fail the 100 meter rule - you can't see them at a scale 100 meters.  You CAN see the clock, so Chidori (trains 11 and 12) had better arrive, and depart, on time - on my railroad.  If you, like the UP, run all trains as extras, on time is determined on an individual train basis, by immediate orders from the DS - and you are the DS (as well as engineer, conductor, brakeman and chief gandy dancer.)  Unless specifically asked, I won't even suggest how you should run YOUR railroad.

I will suggest that you do it in the way YOU enjoy most!

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September 1964 - to schedule)

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Hi Chuck, I just like to run trains. If two are heading toward each other, the one closest to a turnout gets diverted so the other can pass. Other than that, I just let 'em run while I work on the layout.

[Paul3]

Jeff,
Note that I've edited my above post to reflect the new information given.

Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************

[Dave Vollmer]

Wow...  I've never heard of anything like that.  Physically fighting over how to operate a layout?

This Chris guy needs a serious time out.  Certainly physical assault is not a behavior common to, nor unique to, rivet counters.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

The guy has a bi-polar disorder and is mentally unstable. I let him know I don't want him around here anymore or for that matter on any of my family's property. We own almost the entire loop out here. It's almost a 1/4 mile around.

[SteamFreak]

The guy has a bi-polar disorder and is mentally unstable. I let him know I don't want him around here anymore or for that matter on any of my family's property.

Obviously this guy is wrestling with psychological demons and his behavior has nothing to do with model railroading of any type. I'd keep a safe distance and just be thankful you're not inside his head.

Nelson

[denny99]

The guy replies to the post and right away starts letting me have it  about the order I painted the darn thing...You did the roof first before the rest of the shell?...If it were me, I would have done the body shell first and than the roof..it would have..yada, yada, yada....who cares in what order I painted the model..it came out pretty slick when I finished and isn't that all that matters?...some things people need to keep to themselves...chuck

chuck,
I happen to read the thread on the other forum you're talking about.
here is the link http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?2838

I think you totally misunderstood what the guy said. he said that it would be EASIER to paint the roof after. not that it would be the CORRECT way to do it. afterall, he said "You do have some nice results, though.".

some things people need to keep to themselves... denny

[rghammill]

In response to several responses to my other post:

The first words of my sentence were "for me" when referring to aspiring to the level of accuracy of rivet counters.

Everybody has their own comfort level as far as accuracy is concerned. That's the way it should be.

Often, a modeler's level of accuracy has to do with other factors, like budget, time, current modeling skills, etc. Sometimes it's simply a lack of knowledge.

But we're all trying to accomplish the same thing: creating a model that we enjoy. I think most (if not all) also want to create a model that others will enjoy. And we're trying to find ways to improve the models we make. That's why we share our experiences, models, and ask questions and for critiques and advice on what we've done.

The fact that a given person may not be concerned about a specific detail like a coupler doesn't mean that they aren't particular about their models. They're just not particular about couplers.

But that's why the term "rivet counter" to me is useless. How particular about your models do you have to be to qualify as a rivet counter? Is Joe Fugate one? How about Tony Koester, or George Sellios? An I because I like the way Sergent couplers look better than Kadees? Is Frank Sergent because he wanted more prototypical couplers so much he created them and sells them? How about the folks at Kadee who didn't like the horn-hook couplers that were unprototypical so they invented a better one years ago?

From my perspective, it's the folks who are striving for better accuracy, and better detail who are making it possible for all of us to enjoy Proto, Spectrum or Genesis locomotives, and highly detailed RTR rolling stock, etc.

It's up to you to decide the level of detail and accuracy that you want to model. I would bet that over the years most people find that they want to have better detail and more accuracy as time goes on.

The issue that Dave was making, and I agree with, is that people who strive for accuracy are good, but are often discounted for their efforts and sharing that knowledge and information.

Nit-pickers on the other hand are simply people who will find something wrong with your model no matter what you do.

Rivet counters may very well point out inaccuracies in somebody else's model, but only when asked. Nit-pickers will point out anything they can at any opportunity.

A different way of looking at it is the intent:

A rivet counter shares information with the genuine goodwill of trying to help or inform others.

A nit-picker criticises others work for the sake of putting it down. In most cases I would guess it is for a feeling of superiority. In any event, it is not done for the others benefit.

Randy

[andrechapelon]

[Monty Python]

I'm a rivet counter and I'm OK

I sleep all night and count rivets all day

       He's a rivet counter and he's OK

       He sleeps all night and counts rivets all day

 

I count them rivets, I eat my lunch

My work how I do love it

On Wednesdays I post on this forum

And am promptly told to shove it.

      He counts them rivets, he eats his lunch

      His work how he do love it

      On Wednesdays he posts on this forum

      And is promptly told to shove it.

 

I count the rivets, I skip and jump

I love to press wild flowers

Then put on women's clothing

And scratchbuild wood box cars...................

[/Monty Python]

 

 

 

     

[SteamFreak]

[Monty Python]

I count the rivets, I skip and jump

I love to press wild flowers

Then put on women's clothing

And scratchbuild wood box cars...................

[/Monty Python]

Andre, way to bring a thread to a screeching halt!

Remind me never to ask for photos of your scratchbuilding technique.....

Nelson

[andrechapelon]

Andre, way to bring a thread to a screeching halt!

Remind me never to ask for photos of your scratchbuilding technique.....

Nelson

It was a dirty job and someone had to do it.

It was a choice between modifying MP's lumberjack song or altering an old Christmas carol.

To the tune of "Winter Wonderland"

I get into my wife's dainties

I build HO models while wearing her panties

I'm wearing her teddy

While I'm getting ready

To weather my scratchbuilt model of Disneyland.

Her negligee is a tight fitter

And I'm all in a twitter

I'm happy tonight

It'll cause me delight

To weather my scratchbuilt model of Disneyland.

Haven't quite finished the lyrics, but you get the picture.

 

Andre

 

[Anonymous]

Greetings and Happy Thanksgiving to all those who will be celebrating tommorow.

I found the following very apt to the discussion in this thread. While 99% of those who view our models would be unware of the short comings of the IHC 2-10-2, and I would guess most of us would not be terribly concerned with the "problems" with the locomotive from a detail stand point, still it is "wrong"  and while orsonroy may be a "nit picker", he is "right"  with regard to an other wise good running locomotive.

[/http]http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/956809/ShowPost.aspx[http/]

The decision is ours to make, change the boiler, add an air pump, change to the correct feedwater heater or let it run as is. If the price is "right", do the short comings nag at us, or do we just "play with our trains"? I think that the above discussion helps us to make an informed choice as to whether or not we want one or not, and may explain why they may be REAL bargins down the line below their current "Sale" price, and worth the time and cost of  needed modifications. I personally am thankful for "Nit-Pickers" input into my buying decisions.

 

Will

[wjstix]

The guy has a bi-polar disorder and is mentally unstable.

According to my wife, that describes ALL model railroaders !!

[IRONROOSTER]

Bump

Why?

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

Sorry for the "bump", please see my edited post 3 up. Working from page 21 made it a challenge to copy the address from a page one thread.

Have a great Thanksgiving holiday!

Will