Dick--I haven't seen a brass B&A Berkshire, but that doesn't mean the model doesn't exist. I know that PFM imported the Van Swearigan-style Berks some years back, and Balboa had a B&M Berk with the coffin FWH, both in original and as-bought by SP during WWII.
I'd suggest that you try Peach Creek Shops in Laurel, MD. www.peachcreekshops.com I've acquired a few used brass locos from them and they're a really GREAT resource. I know they carry a large collection of Eastern brass steam, so if they don't have one, they might know how to get ahold of one. They're good people. I've always had good luck with them.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Carey:
People like you and JimValle are my heroes!! Those two locos in your photographs are just bloody GORGEOUS! And I'm glad to see that other brass runners out there realize that with TLC, brass will run and pull like crazy. I've still got my first brass articulated, an Akane M-4 2-8-8-4, that I bought in 1964 and it just thunders around my layout with whatever I choose to put behind it. The big beast has NO conception of car limit, LOL! I wonder if I can say that about any of my BLI's in ten years?
I don't know if Max Gray ever put out an MT-2. I have one of their MT-3's without the Skyline casing and it's a wonderful loco--still has its original open frame motor, but pulls smooth and quiet. Thanks for the hint, though, I'll have to check and see if they ever imported an MT-2. They were a very unusual loco on the SP--especially handsome before the Skyline casing was applied.
BTW, is that big, beautiful 2-10-2 of yours a Key or a Sunset? I know both put out USRA-style 2-10-2's a number of years ago. I've got a Colorado and Southern Key 2-10-2 and it's just a bruiser of a loco--smooth and really quiet.
Again, thanks for posting those photos. I'm droolin'.
JimValle wrote: It is just tremendous fun to take these engines apart, overhaul them, reassemble them and put a custom coat of paint and decals on them and finally, a heavy coat of weathering. You can do that because they are out of the collector's orbit now so no need to preserve "market value". And how some of these older Japanese brass babies run! I put them oOn my club's modular layout and just gallop along, passing up all the BLI and Precisioncraft bplugs that can't get out of their tracks because of the amp draw on the sound systems and decoders.
It is just tremendous fun to take these engines apart, overhaul them, reassemble them and put a custom coat of paint and decals on them and finally, a heavy coat of weathering. You can do that because they are out of the collector's orbit now so no need to preserve "market value". And how some of these older Japanese brass babies run! I put them oOn my club's modular layout and just gallop along, passing up all the BLI and Precisioncraft bplugs that can't get out of their tracks because of the amp draw on the sound systems and decoders.
I'll certainly agree with Jim that, if you are an experienced tinkerer with model trains (particularly brass models), you can often make an inexpensive dog into a thoroughbred. But on the other hand, without such a mechanical background, you can get yourself into trouble really fast! Many of the older or earlier brass models were subject to surprising inaccuracies and more importantly poor running characteristics that can only be offset by knowledgable tweeking and adjustment of the drive train, re-soldering or replacing loose parts, or recognizing valve gear problems and how to correct them. Few, if any, of the older engines - especially steamers - will be found to be good runners right out of the resale box. If they had been, they might not have been up for sale in the first place! So, you guys with no more than RTR knowledge, need to be very careful about jumping into the 2nd hand brass models arena.
CNJ831
Max Gray imported the MT-3 and MT-4 / 61 and 62.
Key imported the MT-1 /1983
ALCO inported the MT-2 / 79
Balboa and Key also imported the MT-3
Key imported the MT-5 /82 and Westside /76
Any of the SP mountains can be found used.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Dick--no decoders, I'm strictly DC. However, from what I've heard, installing decoders in brass locos is relatively easy after you insulate the motor from the frame. And since, as I change out old open-frame motors in my brass to the new Canon style, I usually re-mount them in the frame with sealing caulk, if I choose to go with DCC, about half of my brass will be ready for decoders. I just don't think I'm ready for the complexities of DCC, yet--at least from what I've been reading about it.
rrebell wrote:from a runner--hey don't knock the plastic, they have to be fiddled with to get them to run right, just try a spectrum k-4 without tinkering, as for brass, i own a few. Only one i paid real money for was a small 20 ton shay in ho, could not get in plastic and dont think they ever will, now looking for brass class A climax, same story
I'm not knocking plastic, believe me. I've got a Genesis and several BLI's that I'm quite happy with, and you're right, they also need 'tinkering.' Almost everything in our hobby does, that's why it's a hobby and we're not just watching trains run around all day. My main point was to dispel the myth that we who are mainly into brass just collect them and let them sit on the shelves.
BTW, I think PFM imported a Climax, some years ago. You might want to check on E-Bay or some of the larger hobby shops that carry a lot of brass (Caboose Hobbies, Peach Creek for example), you might come across one.
CNJ831 wrote:I'll certainly agree with Jim that, if you are an experienced tinkerer with model trains (particularly brass models), you can often make an inexpensive dog into a thoroughbred. But on the other hand, without such a mechanical background, you can get yourself into trouble really fast! Many of the older or earlier brass models were subject to surprising inaccuracies and more importantly poor running characteristics that can only be offset by knowledgable tweeking and adjustment of the drive train, re-soldering or replacing loose parts, or recognizing valve gear problems and how to correct them. Few, if any, of the older engines - especially steamers - will be found to be good runners right out of the resale box. If they had been, they might not have been up for sale in the first place! So, you guys with no more than RTR knowledge, need to be very careful about jumping into the 2nd hand brass models arena. CNJ831
You guys might want to check out Mark Schutzer's site. He has several clinics on repairing/updating/tweaking brass locomotives.
He can be found here: http://markschutzer.com/
Good stuff, including a tutorial on gearboxes.
Andre
All I can say to that is model something more popular.
markpierce wrote: GearDrivenSteam wrote: I don't know. With models coming out that are much more affordable and just as detailed, I don't think the majority of people are interested in spending a grand for a locomotive. I know I'm not. NOt that I have that kinda money to throw around on locomotives. Even if I did have the money, I wouldn't do it. Yes, but the plastic models are not railroad/car/locomotive specific. They are merely generics. Further, most common locomotives are NEVER modeled. As for SP locomotives, please give me a break from the ACs and GSs. How about the more common Hogs, Mogs, and Decks? I'd buy'm, if they'd make'm. Meantime, I'll buy the brass, even though I'd prefer the affordability and mechanically reliable of plastic/die-cast metal models. (Now offer me some MM-3s.) Mark
GearDrivenSteam wrote: I don't know. With models coming out that are much more affordable and just as detailed, I don't think the majority of people are interested in spending a grand for a locomotive. I know I'm not. NOt that I have that kinda money to throw around on locomotives. Even if I did have the money, I wouldn't do it.
I don't know. With models coming out that are much more affordable and just as detailed, I don't think the majority of people are interested in spending a grand for a locomotive. I know I'm not. NOt that I have that kinda money to throw around on locomotives. Even if I did have the money, I wouldn't do it.
Yes, but the plastic models are not railroad/car/locomotive specific. They are merely generics. Further, most common locomotives are NEVER modeled. As for SP locomotives, please give me a break from the ACs and GSs. How about the more common Hogs, Mogs, and Decks? I'd buy'm, if they'd make'm. Meantime, I'll buy the brass, even though I'd prefer the affordability and mechanically reliable of plastic/die-cast metal models. (Now offer me some MM-3s.)
Mark
As an FYI, Peach Creek shops is moving, and all of the brass that they have is now 50% off the price on the web page. I just purchase an AL&M 4-6-0 for $130 from them yesterday (it arrived today). Also John Glaab is the owner of the shop and is very helpful (and knowledgeable). He wrote the last version of "The Brown Book of Brass Locomotives". I intend to run all of my brass one day, but I have found it very hard to complete any of my projects with a 2 yr old and a 3 month old to take care of. I have a PSC 4-8-0 that I have remotored that is awaiting a decoder install, a Tenshodo USRA 0-8-0 that I have taken apart to remotor and then paint, and a Ken Kidder 0-6-0 that I have taken apart to strip, remotor, and paint. All of these projects have been shelved for the time being of course. One thing that I really want to get to is remotoring and painting my SRR 4-6-2 PS4 from PFM.
CJCrescent would you mind sharing your painting tips with me for this loco.
cjcrescent wrote:As to poor or inadequate details, that was mostly a technology deficit, not a lack of correct plans. Look at how the quality of the details & the number produced, by Cal-Scale, Kemtron now Bowser and PSC, have really improved. Why mention these? These companies made the majority of the detail parts that came on Brass imports from the late 1950's until recently. Look at an old PFM/Akane/Balboa catalog, and it will name who made the detail parts. (Balboa did have their own detail maker there in the company called Bal-Scale.) They were located in Sou-Cal.The older, and even some of the newer, (late 70's) brass engines had one problem that made them "poor runners'. That was the poor quality Japanese motors that came with the majority of brass. Unless the motor supplied was a Pittman or another high quality motor of the time, the loco could not reach the running quality that was designed into it. On any steamer I bought that was a "poor runner", by the simple replacement with a good Pittman, those "poor" characteristics went away. All it took for that was to remove 4 Screws, counting the one that held the motor, drop in the Pittman, replace the boiler and now you had a "good" runner. With a little tweaking as Tom described, they became "great" runners.
Clearly, your encounters with 2nd hand brass have been brighter than what I've seen. As one who has owned or examined a number of Custom Brass locomotives, some were good but other were downright inaccurate relative to the prototype (they were even supposedly known for it!). Alpha, International, and several other mfgs had similar reps. Often I've seen 2nd hand models with deteriorating driver centers, wornout driver tires, binding valve gear or geartrains, very poor factory soldering jobs that needed to be redone, and pieces totally missing from models. None of these repairs are jobs for someone not intimately familiar with building/rebuilding HO locomotive models.
I'd also advise that it's one thing to buy from a pricey hobby shop dealing in used brass, where the item has likely been carefully examined for quality already and you can return it if you find defects, but quite another dealing privately, as on eBay, etc., as I expect most here with any idea of buying their first used brass loco would be most likely to do . So, I'll repeat my warning that 2nd hand brass is no place to be fooling around for the novice.
CNJ831 wrote: Clearly, your encounters with 2nd hand brass have been brighter than what I've seen. As one who has owned or examined a number of Custom Brass locomotives, some were good but other were downright inaccurate relative to the prototype (they were even supposedly known for it!). Alpha, International, and several other mfgs had similar reps. Often I've seen 2nd hand models with deteriorating driver centers, wornout driver tires, binding valve gear or geartrains, very poor factory soldering jobs that needed to be redone, and pieces totally missing from models. None of these repairs are jobs for someone not intimately familiar with building/rebuilding HO locomotive models. I'd also advise that it's one thing to buy from a pricey hobby shop dealing in used brass, where the item has likely been carefully examined for quality already and you can return it if you find defects, but quite another dealing privately, as on eBay, etc., as I expect most here with any idea of buying their first used brass loco would be most likely to do . So, I'll repeat my warning that 2nd hand brass is no place to be fooling around for the novice. CNJ831
I never said that it would be ok for a novice to buy a second hand loco and expect it to be "perfect". And really I'm not taking issue with the advice you have given. Even with "new" ones that have sat on a shelf or in its box for its entire "life", I never expect to be perfect. Given the "RTR attitude" that seems to have taken over vast areas of the hobby, I'm not sure I would recommend that anyone who doesn't have a good mechanical aptitude even buy anew one.
I currently own 10 brass, 4 are used, 8 of the 10 are SRR prototypes. This is down from the 35 brass steamers and 10 diesels, (8 of these were used), I used to own. But I have never purchased any loco second hand that has had any of the wheel problems you've mentioned. I may have only 4 second hand locos of my own now, but have over the past 30years, repaired, rebuilt, regeared, remotored, redetailed and painted over 700 brass locos, new and used for many modelers. And except for one driver on a Tenshodo N&W class A, that was loose, (repaired by keying the driver to the axle), have never seen anything worse than some wheel plating wear and cracked insulation washers. Out of all the possible problems you've mentioned, (except for the worn tires and centers), they can/and have been present on new ones I've owned straight from the factory. Repairing those gear, valvegear, motor, and detail problems is what I, and maybe Tom, would consider part of "tweaking". But with learning the use of some basic tools 99% of the problems associated with second hand brass can be taken care of fairly easily.
Although I have heard of International, I am not familiar with Alpha. But if they are from the same era as International, I'm not surprised those locos are bad. Just about everything out of Japan was bad at the time. Even the early Tenshodos weren't much better, and they were even sold as "kits". Their drivers were so bad (cast Zamac, mostly boxpox, that weren't molded all the way thru) that you would be lucky to get a set that wasn't cracked. When Samhongsa started making their first brass models for NWSL, they were so bad that NWSL named them their "Disaster Series"
As to owning a Custom Brass, I only had one. It musta been a good one. Bought it new for $100 and sold it to an ATSF modeller in NO for $300, five years after I originally bought it.
marknewton wrote:markpierce wrote: Define "common". As far as I can make out, the most common US steam locomotive is the USRA light 2-8-2, and it's been modelled once or twice. As for plastic models, they're not all generic, far from it. You mention cars, all of the recent freight car models I've bought were quite prototype specific. Cheers, Mark.
cjcrescent wrote: I never said that it would be ok for a novice to buy a second hand loco and expect it to be "perfect". And really I'm not taking issue with the advice you have given. Even with "new" ones that have sat on a shelf or in its box for its entire "life", I never expect to be perfect. Given the "RTR attitude" that seems to have taken over vast areas of the hobby, I'm not sure I would recommend that anyone who doesn't have a good mechanical aptitude even buy anew one. (Then snipped)
(Then snipped)
CJ - Indeed, I agree with all you have to say. As noted, for the careful, knowledgeable and experienced hobbyist, purchasing and fixing up 2nd hand brass can prove at once to be fun, challenging and satisfying (been there, done that!)...while for the novice, without acquired loco rebuilding skills, it *may* provide nothing but a frustration.
Hi Marknewton,
I meant "common" in the context of a large number of locomotives with specific wheel arrangements for the larger railroads, which in my case includes Southern Pacific. Beyond the constant barrage of 4-8-4s and 4-8-8-2s offered us, the very-common-on-the-SP 0-6-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-10-2s, and 4-8-2s aren't available in plastic. ( 2-6-2s, 0-8-0s, and 2-10-0s were not common on the SP, just a handful of each.). As for "common" in your context, I agree the 2-8-0 wheel arrangement was the most common for the 20th century steam period, but they were built in a plethora (and beyond count) of variations. But I only see two different 2-8-0s in Walthers catalog (IHC and Bachman). What a travesty.
The majority of all the steam locomotives listed in the catalog do not accurately represent a specific railroad and class of locomotive, let alone a particular individual locomotive. Thus, I consider them "generic", and often are not accurate of any locomotive in the road names offered. Unless one models a shortline, and you find a specific prototypical locomotive for that shortline, and are willing and able of adding/modifying details, it is impractical to have a representative roster of locomotives without acquiring built-up brass models (if you're lucky) or major scratchbuilding and modification work.
CNJ831:
Not to knock the newer plastic locos--I've got several and I'm quite happy with them--but 'tweaking' most brass is relatively easy, as far as getting into the mechanism itself. About four to six screws and the superstructure lifts right off and there it is. I wish that I could say the same for several of the BLI's I've had to disassemble just to lube the motor gearing (as prescribed by the instructions).
Like CJ, I suppose that I'm lucky, since I've never run across the problems you have stated--though you're not the only one who has had these problems, I know. For the most part, the used brass that I've bought have only needed relatively minor tweaking--re-weighting and re-balancing and occasionally trading out the weaker stock motor for a good NWSL one--but having bought my first brass loco in 1964, I've gotten used to that fact. It's the price you pay for getting the specific locomotive you want for the specific railroad you're modeling. In my case, it's the Rio Grande, and the only Rio Grande-friendly plastic loco out there on the market currently is the Proto USRA 2-8-8-2--a handsome loco but a lousy puller-- which means I'd end up with a fleet of motive power that the Rio Grande used as pusher locomotives on Soldier Summit.
And I agree with you and MarkNewton that there are current plastic locos out there that are road-specific. Unfortunately, they just aren't the railroads that I model, for the most part. So what do you do? In my case--and MarkPierce and CJ's, I think--you go brass and 'tweak.' And actually, once you get the hang of it (brass is for the most part very forgiving), it's not really that difficult. But for some of us who model specific steam, it's really the only road that we have to travel, right now.
Best,
This was posted on Railway Classics web site as of 22 July 06. They have announced that they are suspending importing models
Ch
7/22/06 - Announcement. Late last fall, Ajin informed us that they are no longer interested in building passenger cars for us, but were willing to continue to work on the EMD E-unit project but at a much higher price. We have been seeking replacement builders for our passenger car projects who will meet our demanding quality requirements and do so for a reasonable price. Unfortunately, even after a trip to South Korea, we have not been able to come to agreeable terms with any of the builders on price, especially in light of the unfavorable exchange rate. Due to this impasse, we have decided to place Railway Classics in "hibernation mode," placing our current projects on hold and cutting our expenses to a bare minimum until the business climate improves. David has taken a full-time job away from Railway Classics, but David and Doug are still continuing to handle Railway Classics business on a limited, part-time basis, continuing to take and fulfill orders for in stock items. We have no plans to cancel any of our HO scale projects and will continue to take reservations on them. Unfortunately, due to very low reservation levels, we are canceling all of our N scale projects. Refunds on the N scale Creek Series Observation deposits will be refunded to our Dealers shortly. We value our Dealers and our customers and ask for your patience and understanding during this time.
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub
knewsom wrote: CJCrescent would you mind sharing your painting tips with me for this loco.
Charlie wrote: This was posted on Railway Classics web site as of 22 July 06. They have announced that they are suspending importing models Ch 7/22/06 - Announcement. Late last fall, Ajin informed us that they are no longer interested in building passenger cars for us, but were willing to continue to work on the EMD E-unit project but at a much higher price. We have been seeking replacement builders for our passenger car projects who will meet our demanding quality requirements and do so for a reasonable price. Unfortunately, even after a trip to South Korea, we have not been able to come to agreeable terms with any of the builders on price, especially in light of the unfavorable exchange rate. Due to this impasse, we have decided to place Railway Classics in "hibernation mode," placing our current projects on hold and cutting our expenses to a bare minimum until the business climate improves. David has taken a full-time job away from Railway Classics, but David and Doug are still continuing to handle Railway Classics business on a limited, part-time basis, continuing to take and fulfill orders for in stock items. We have no plans to cancel any of our HO scale projects and will continue to take reservations on them. Unfortunately, due to very low reservation levels, we are canceling all of our N scale projects. Refunds on the N scale Creek Series Observation deposits will be refunded to our Dealers shortly. We value our Dealers and our customers and ask for your patience and understanding during this time.
The Railway Classics statement about Ajin not wanting to make their passenger cars might be due to the fact Ajin is busy making " mass production" plastic models now. They have turned out several projects for more than one importer and might be making more money on those projects than the brass models.
Why would they take a project to produce a few brass cars and limited profit due to the few numbers produced, when they might be able to make a living and larger profits by producing thousands of plastic models.
CAZEPHYR wrote: Charlie wrote: This was posted on Railway Classics web site as of 22 July 06. They have announced that they are suspending importing models Ch 7/22/06 - Announcement. Late last fall, Ajin informed us that they are no longer interested in building passenger cars for us, but were willing to continue to work on the EMD E-unit project but at a much higher price. We have been seeking replacement builders for our passenger car projects who will meet our demanding quality requirements and do so for a reasonable price. Unfortunately, even after a trip to South Korea, we have not been able to come to agreeable terms with any of the builders on price, especially in light of the unfavorable exchange rate. Due to this impasse, we have decided to place Railway Classics in "hibernation mode," placing our current projects on hold and cutting our expenses to a bare minimum until the business climate improves. David has taken a full-time job away from Railway Classics, but David and Doug are still continuing to handle Railway Classics business on a limited, part-time basis, continuing to take and fulfill orders for in stock items. We have no plans to cancel any of our HO scale projects and will continue to take reservations on them. Unfortunately, due to very low reservation levels, we are canceling all of our N scale projects. Refunds on the N scale Creek Series Observation deposits will be refunded to our Dealers shortly. We value our Dealers and our customers and ask for your patience and understanding during this time. The Railway Classics statement about Ajin not wanting to make their passenger cars might be due to the fact Ajin is busy making " mass production" plastic models now. They have turned out several projects for more than one importer and might be making more money on those projects than the brass models. Why would they take a project to produce a few brass cars and limited profit due to the few numbers produced, when they might be able to make a living and larger profits by producing thousands of plastic models.
My Overland Models ATSF Full Dome 60 was produced by Ajin. Kind of wondering if this is the last model produced by them. I do know that Overland has been shifting more of their models/orders to China and that models produced in China are very nice looking and well detailed. It will be interesting to see if Overland and Railway Classics will shift their production to Sam Tech or China/Vietnam. I think an option would be for the Brass Importers to offer Hybrids such as a brass shell and plastic underframe for passenger cars and a brass shell and a cast metal power unit for locomotives similar to Oriental Limited's Power House steam and Overlands drives for Rail Power shells.
Alex
Brass IS dead!
Everybody is stop selling it and making it. Get out now while you still have time is what I am hearing from the brass stores
Charlie wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: Charlie wrote: This was posted on Railway Classics web site as of 22 July 06. They have announced that they are suspending importing models Ch 7/22/06 - Announcement. Late last fall, Ajin informed us that they are no longer interested in building passenger cars for us, but were willing to continue to work on the EMD E-unit project but at a much higher price. We have been seeking replacement builders for our passenger car projects who will meet our demanding quality requirements and do so for a reasonable price. Unfortunately, even after a trip to South Korea, we have not been able to come to agreeable terms with any of the builders on price, especially in light of the unfavorable exchange rate. Due to this impasse, we have decided to place Railway Classics in "hibernation mode," placing our current projects on hold and cutting our expenses to a bare minimum until the business climate improves. David has taken a full-time job away from Railway Classics, but David and Doug are still continuing to handle Railway Classics business on a limited, part-time basis, continuing to take and fulfill orders for in stock items. We have no plans to cancel any of our HO scale projects and will continue to take reservations on them. Unfortunately, due to very low reservation levels, we are canceling all of our N scale projects. Refunds on the N scale Creek Series Observation deposits will be refunded to our Dealers shortly. We value our Dealers and our customers and ask for your patience and understanding during this time. The Railway Classics statement about Ajin not wanting to make their passenger cars might be due to the fact Ajin is busy making " mass production" plastic models now. They have turned out several projects for more than one importer and might be making more money on those projects than the brass models. Why would they take a project to produce a few brass cars and limited profit due to the few numbers produced, when they might be able to make a living and larger profits by producing thousands of plastic models. My Overland Models ATSF Full Dome 60 was produced by Ajin. Kind of wondering if this is the last model produced by them. I do know that Overland has been shifting more of their models/orders to China and that models produced in China are very nice looking and well detailed. It will be interesting to see if Overland and Railway Classics will shift their production to Sam Tech or China/Vietnam. I think an option would be for the Brass Importers to offer Hybrids such as a brass shell and plastic underframe for passenger cars and a brass shell and a cast metal power unit for locomotives similar to Oriental Limited's Power House steam and Overlands drives for Rail Power shells. Ch
Overland imported a short run of some SF Hi level cars also just before the Full Dome. I managed to complete my Hi level train with two of the last run cars, and they were built by Ajin.
The money for brass is the set up and the plastic can be reshot into molds time after time until they break. With the great job of plating that BLI did on their Zephyr cars, I probably will not buy any more brass cars as add ons if someone offers plastic that good.
It is speculation on my part, but I believe Overland could get Ajin to build more pasengers cars..