Hello everyone,
Well now that things are some what settled, I am beginning to get my modeling underway once again. However I am still having a problem with financing. (Why do these things have to be so darned expensive)
Anyhow I have decided, that with the exception of finishing my brass Empire Builder consist That i am not going to buy any more new model train items. Its just cost to much. I still am going to focus on modeling the Great Northern Railway during the year 1969. However I will probably model the summer as all my scenery supplies are set up for that season.
My question though, am I the only person having problems with continuing to afford the hobby? When you could purchase at the hobby shop locomotives for $40.00 and freight cars for $7.50, I could afford my hearts desires. Now I am in a situation where if I buy something from a hobby shop, when they reorder its a new item that costs three times the piece of inventory it replaced, or in a few cases, they are just leaving the model train business, and depending on me to buy their unsold inventory.
This leaves me fustrated and saddened because I can no longer afford to participate in my favorite hobby, at least from the standpoint new equipment is concerned. Since this simply can't be the case, I have decided to try a second hand approach. There are tons of second hand trains availabale out there. Why not put them to good use? So to that end I have engaged in a polocy that I call, Nickles and Dimes and Thriftshop Finds. To kick off this new program, I stopped in a second hand shop thats just down the street from where I work. Sure eneugh there was a a small supply of HO scale trains available, The lot had three locomotives in various states of repair, (Two in much better shape than the third) about 10 freight cars, and a good mish mash of track. including two new boxes of 5 pieces of Flex Track. What did I get this treasure trove of model train goodness for? $25.00. Pricing the items out individually from some of the discount houses, I would have had to pay well over $275.00 to pick up the entire lot if it were new prices.
To me this seems to be the way to go. With luck the RTR craze won't take the repair parts off the market any time soon. and Microscale don't go anywhere, I need your decals more than ever now. Not unless I want to run a block of 8 Snap on 50 Plug Door Box Cars.
If your down to here, thanks for letting me vent. James
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
James,
No matter what stick with the hobby. There will be an emptiness if you don't. It's all good. I applaud your attitude. Just don't get down and keep having fun.
James are you are not the only one as said before. I am with you 100%, and I asked the question a few days ago what people thought Ebay would do for the second hand market. I am hoping almost as much as you are that the second hand market will take off. by rough ideas, I would think that you would get 75% increase in the model railroad market share. You will still have the new buyers, but also new buyers sell off stuff to expand, and us second handers come for the pickings. I would think that is why some of us are in the hobby to begin with. We can do this hobby with little investment beyond time.
And who is to say that if the second hand market takes off that a secondary third market presents itself if it has not already in some cases.
And on and on it goes.
James do you think I am heading down the right road on this idea.
One can still dream though.
Take care
Reeves
Well, fellas, I think the handwriting is on the wall, if you go by MR's overview of product prices for new items displayed/announced at the recent NMRA convention (under "Products and Hobby News"). Only 3 locomotives, out of the 23 listed, came in with a MSRP under $100. Most were in excess (many well in excess) of $200. I also noticed quite a few structure kits being priced in the hundreds as well. Hobbyists better start hitting the lottery!
CNJ831
reeveshd wrote: James are you are not the only one as said before. I am with you 100%, and I asked the question a few days ago what people thought Ebay would do for the second hand market. I am hoping almost as much as you are that the second hand market will take off. by rough ideas, I would think that you would get 75% increase in the model railroad market share. You will still have the new buyers, but also new buyers sell off stuff to expand, and us second handers come for the pickings. I would think that is why some of us are in the hobby to begin with. We can do this hobby with little investment beyond time. And who is to say that if the second hand market takes off that a secondary third market presents itself if it has not already in some cases. And on and on it goes. James do you think I am heading down the right road on this idea. One can still dream though. Take care Reeves
You present some sound logical arguments and there is alot of second hand model train material on E-bay. My problem with E-bay is that alot of the items that are available on a second hand basis from e-bay are from people who by all rights shouldn't be within a mile of a model train. I continually see items up for sale with disclaimers like, "I do not know much about trains, I am selling for so and so's estate." or "Found this in the garage, taking up space." And the ones that really make me cringe are the ones that try to BS their way past you and try to hype up their item into something its not. I have seen many auctions where the Bachmann "Lustra Chrome" F-9A Santa Fe engine was described as being "Very Rare"
I can't criticise to harshly though as there are sellers who obviously are hobbiests that are trying to sell their unwanted items and from these people I have had a large number of dealings. However in most instances I ended up paying close to MSRP for what I was wanting. after you factor in shipping and handling. In the items I have purchased however I wasn't neccicarily looking for a bargain as the items I have purchased on e-bay for the most part have been highly specific items geared for the intention of completing a project I had, have, or will have underway. While at the same time, being unable to obtain these items from hobby shops in my area. (If you can consider being 100 miles from the nearest hobby shop "in your area")Example, I was needing a set of Athearn heavyweight passenger cars so I can assemble an excursion consist for a railway museum I have planned on my layout. Manage to find all the cars except the baggage. In kit form to. But I payed close to $8.50 for each car. In the 2003 Walthers Catalog. (The last year Athearn was carried) Passenger Cars are shown at being $9.90. But now I have my excursion train. (The excursion train idea was from when I was modeling a freelanced BNSF line from Casper WY to Salt Lake City and since I have it, Im carrying the idea to my new layout)
The other problem I have with Ebay though is you can't inspect the item before purchasing it. You have to rely on the seller's description. As we all know, some are great, some are a joke. But if I can inspect an item. hold it, scrutinse it, and get a better idea for what I am getting into when I purchase it, I am generally more inclined to buy it. I have found that on E-bay that unless the item is clearly described to me, and well documented. I tend to ignore it. Also now that I have firmy cemented my focus for the Great Northern in 1969, that just alot of chaff gets routinely ignored. No needing to chase after UP GE Dash X 66,whatcha digtits any more. Don't need them. Even if they are listed at 2 powered units for $7.99. Since I can not inspect an item, I tend to seek out items that are new in the box items to help ensure against a higher rate of former owner induced defects.
Perhaps I will get lucky and find used DCC decoders for like $5.00 each. I was already given an older Digitraxx Empire Builder system for christmas. I just have to decide if I want to use it or not. Just wish I had more than three decoders.
On your point of their being a secondary third hand market. Its entirely possible for brass items. While not all that common, I have seen some items that are on their third and fourth owners. However I will say that these items are comparitivly ancient affairs having been made in the early 50s or so and are somewhat crude by even todays plastic standards. I know that some of the stuff in my possesion, i am the third owner. though its not really anything of highly significant collector value.
The only problem is that with the exception of Tyco. Unless the train set has F-units, Most train sets with diesel locomotives are appropriet for the 1970s or later. And I model the late 60s. Tyco locos though. Are good for the 60s. But except for the F-Units. none of their locos were good for GN. Drats this is going to be harder than I thought
he he he. Maybe I should model BN instead he he he.
Well if you are down to here. Thanks for letting me ramble some more.
James.
James! I am hearng a brand new man! Your perspective and attitude seem to have come 180 deg, and you sound determined, no longer dejected. What a pleasant change, for you and for me. As you can see, you are among friends who share your new approach to the hobby.
It happens that two of my grown daughters (one for sure, the other is tentative) are going to be returning home for an extended period, so that means wife and I must part with the Tundra and our two year-old travel trailer. I retired at the same time as the trailer purchase, and we very much enjoy camping, so this decision was a tough, but necessary, one. We can't afford, on my fixed income, to be towing a depreciating item in a gas guzzler and driving the girls to job interviews 20 km away, so out they both go. That's life.
I hope you can find a great deal of happiness with your new purchases.
-Crandell
I love finding nickle and dime stuff. In fact, tonight I have been working on a structure that cost me exactly ten cents at a garage sale. (I even saved on garage sale shopping. I don't drive to garage sales. I schedule my Saturday morning walks to hit the garage sales that in walking distance.) Several years ago, I found a log cabin toy for ten cents. Roof, windows etc missing, actually only the shell. Not every well proportioned for my scale, made of a kind of tough rubbery flexible plastic. Good I guess for kids who are going to throw toys at each other and bite them. But it did look vaguely like a log building. Went in my somewhere bin. I model the factitious East Texas courthouse square town of Johnston in a forest industries region- lumbering, creosote wood treating, pulpwood cutting, etc. The high school team is called the Johnston Lumberjacks. I figured I needed an eating place in town, and to keep up the loggin theme, it seemed appropriate to have a restaurant that plays up the theme, the LUMBERJACK COOKHOUSE. Appeals to tourists, etc. and to local high school pride, etc. Restaurant is of course a log building. The texture and geometry of my log cabin toy seema little too regular to be an authentic looking log building, but this is not supposed to be an authentic log building. It is a MAKE BELIEVE IMITATION log cookhouse from some romanticized idea of logging. The windows on the building were way too high and the building a little overly tall. I cut off the bottom 4 scale feet of the building and that made it about right. (I will use the bottom 4 feet and the base, turn it upside down and it will be a loading platform for an implement dealer!) The upper walls did not hold their shape so I glued some wood braces inside. Worse, the flexible plastic building was slightly skewed-- twisted along its longitudinal axis. To get it to bend back, I wedged a piece of wood in from the front right upper corner to the back left loweer corner of the building. I will have to build a low relief interior on both sides to hide the stick. I am having one heck of a lot of fun with this project. I plan to finish it and post it on www.atlasrr.com Sunday Night Foto Fun in a weekend or two.
(Edit: I just now took a picture of the 10 cent log cabin project and added it to a new comment further down...Thumbnail here:)
Also today I tried a new painting technique with a paint set I bought at a garage sale for 25 cents, a set of 24 water colors including WHITE, a color I don't usually see in water colors. I want a white that deliberately covers POORLY, to look like badly deteriorating paint on a masonry building. I first painted my structure with flat brown oxide primer spray paint, the $1 a can stuff from the Dollar Store. I am loking the effect.
Some recent El Cheapo and junkbin projects I have uploaded to railimages...
I used to work in TV news in the 60s and early 70s when companies wanting a free plug on the news sent out freebie 16mm film clips to use when we had a dull news day. I saved the plastic covers the film reels came in, mostly to make tanks of various kinds. I cut off just about one-sixth of a film reel case to make a BARREL VAULT ROOF for a low relief store.
Some years ago, I built a 2 story house kit as a 1 story house just so mine would be different from everybody else's model and LIKE a house I knew in a prototype scene. I saved the pieces from the 2nd story, even though they were not tall enough to make a single story by themselves. Two weeks ago, I needed a minimal low relief house to put at the end of a residential street that otherwise just stopped. The old second story pieces made up the upper half of the single story of a house, while scrap Evergreen clapboard styrene made up the bottom of the story. The attic level leftover from a house kit that been bashed into a flat-roofed building provided the attic level of my minimal house while a piece of roof leftover from still another kit topped it off. Foliage hid that the house had absolutely no depth behind the yard in front of it, etc.
Next, I plan to take an old Rapido N-scale coupler leftover from MicroTrain conversion, turn it on end and detail it to resemble a drill press!
selector wrote: James! I am hearng a brand new man! Your perspective and attitude seem to have come 180 deg, and you sound determined, no longer dejected. What a pleasant change, for you and for me. As you can see, you are among friends who share your new approach to the hobby.
I went down a long dark road that was very unpleasent and do not wish it upon anybody. I barely survived it. However thanks to my super loving girlfreind, and my steller parents, I managed to make it through my ordeal. As far as my problems go. Im still at the bottom of the hole. But at least there is bright happy sunshine shinning in to it and now the place doesn't seem so bad and I can see a way out. Going to take a while to get things back in shape. But I now have hope, where I had none before.
James
I'm all for this approach. I think the essence of modelling is using the simplest, most common materials. I've bought a few locomotives and a couple of cars, but mostly I'm using my collection from 40 years ago. These are still good enough models for me, particularly since I've found that my real focus is more on the scenery and structures than on the trains themselves.
Right now, for example, I'm building a tall wood fence with posters and billboards on it. What started out as "just another retaining wall" around an incline has become a focal point of the layout. The fence is built from coffee stirrers "liberated" from work. The posters are zero-cost downloads of thumbnails from the Web, printed on decal paper. I used cheap wood stain and India Ink to color the fence. The decal paper will be the biggest part of the cost for this scene.
I have an MOW train, an old True-Scale from my teenage years in the early '60's. I've swapped a few wheelsets, but mostly I've been working on weathering these old things. With a little work, I've got a real eye-catcher, not because it's a "quality" model, but instead because it's weathered and beat-up. Similarly, I've added to my fleet of passenger cars with eBay purchases, and then I put lights in the cars and Kadees on the ends. To me, seeing something that I've put a lot of work into cruising on my main line is far more satisfying than watching a high-dollar train.
I'm also working on a scratch-built building for my coal-and-oil business, Motley Fuels. It's a couple of sheets of Evergreen siding, and maybe some roofing if I can find something I like. I bought some doors and windows at a show earlier in the year, but the rest is just glue, leftover sheet styrene and cheap acrylic paint. Yes, this takes a lot more time than buying a kit and putting it together. On the other hand, if you put a few dollars away every week but it takes many weeks to assemble one scratch-built structure, then by the time it's done you'll have saved up enough to get the parts for the next one.
Right now, I'm in my "peak earning years." Even though my wife seems to be in her "peak spending years," I still have money I could spend on train items if I want an extravagant model of something. But, I really prefer to do it the old fashioned way.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I'm a supporter of second-hand trains. Gotta love train shows and eBay. I've picked up some good stuff from both that would have cost at least double at a train store brand new off the shelf. I'm a teen, and can't/shouldn't put everything I make into model railroading. I need to save for college, and make sure my car is always in working condition. Now, yes, I'll order new items when I can, or if that's all that I can find, but I'm always looking for a cheaper way to acquire something.
However, I have also picked up a few good thrift items from train stores. My best find would be a Bachmann Spectrum HO K4 for $10.
Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern
In my post yesterday, I mentioned the Lumberjack Cookhouse I am "junkbashing" from a ten-cent garage sale log cabin toy. I went and shot a picture of it this morning to show off. A project in the DIME category.
The figures for the interior are in the Nickle-AND-dime category. They set me back about 15 cents apiece, some twenty years ago or so, I forget for sure.
Twenty years ago, I invested in special ordering some Plastruct figures that sounded inexpensive. About ten for $2. When they came I was disappointed. Looked like they were molded in the translucent pink rubbery stuff that artificial fishing worms are made of, and I couldn't see putting them on the layout in the light of day. But COULDN'T THROW THEM AWAY EITHER! Read Model Railroader this month about minimally-visible interiors where you need something so structure doesn't look empty, but it doesn't have to be "good". I knew the interior of Lumberjack Cookhouse would not be very visible. Once I primed the Plastruct figures with flat white, they began to look vaguely human instead of shrimplike. Not much choice or definition of figure positions but I can just cut off the bottoms of the ones that are supposed to be sitting in booths.
Did I mention cutting off the bottom four scale feet of the log cabin. I think I can turn it upside down as a loading platform. Why that's ALMOST free!
Thanks for sharing your inexpensive structure with us. It inspires me to go to garage sales and flea markets and the like.
This is the kind of thread that I enjoy reading as a model train shop owner, believe it or not, because it really puts into perspective a problem that some folks can see clearly in this hobby and some can't.
First I want to say to CNJ831, who made a comment about "price gouging" in this hobby in another thread the other day, that I know he was primarily speaking of those who set the MSRPs and not individual shop owners. My response was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I am reminded and must get used to the idea that my sarcasm doesn't transmit well in this format.
In the rush to make this a ready-to-run/roll/pre-built "no hassle" hobby, the art of making a great model railroad is being lost. Someone else mentioned that whether you spend 10 dollars a week or a 100 dollars a week, you CAN participate in this hobby. You just have to be more creative. Creative...remember that word?
It's not all that good for my business to tell people how they can enjoy the hobby without spending a bunch of money. But it wasn't so many years ago that I was saving enough money to buy an Athearn blue-box locomotive, (even though I was being pushed to buy a Proto 2000) and I don't want to ever get so jaded about the prices in this hobby that I lose the view from the other side of the counter.
Folks when I acquired this store in 1997 I rarely heard someone refer to this as a rich man's hobby. I hear it all the time now. It's scary.
But I'll say it again and again, you can enjoy this hobby to some degree no matter how much you can afford to spend. You don't need 1000 dollar DCC systems and 250 dollar locomotives. You don't need 90 dollar pre-built structures and 30 dollar freight cars.
All of you guys are correct, you can work within this hobby with used stuff. For selfish reasons I hope you can still make it down to your LTS once in awhile if you have one in your area and buy a couple of things.
And a quick note to James who started this thread, I just started reading this forum a couple of months or so ago, but it was around the time when people were sending you their best wishes for your situation. I was so impressed with the concern that fellow forum members showed toward your situation that it made me proud to belong in such a group of people as those that make up our model railroading community...and was part of the reason I decided to join the forum. I hope that things continue to get better for you...and I don't want to get into details, but I deal with something nearly every day, and have for a long time, and to borrow something from the AA group, sometimes it really is one day at a time, everything does get better eventually even though it may never be completely gone but having the support of your loved ones and a hobby that you enjoy can sure work wonders.
One Track Mind wrote: This is the kind of thread that I enjoy reading as a model train shop owner, believe it or not, because it really puts into perspective a problem that some folks can see clearly in this hobby and some can't. And a quick note to James who started this thread, I just started reading this forum a couple of months or so ago, but it was around the time when people were sending you their best wishes for your situation. I was so impressed with the concern that fellow forum members showed toward your situation that it made me proud to belong in such a group of people as those that make up our model railroading community...and was part of the reason I decided to join the forum. I hope that things continue to get better for you...and I don't want to get into details, but I deal with something nearly every day, and have for a long time, and to borrow something from the AA group, sometimes it really is one day at a time, everything does get better eventually even though it may never be completely gone but having the support of your loved ones and a hobby that you enjoy can sure work wonders.
I am glad that you find topics like this insightful. My situation is being compounded not only by higher prices. But in my region of the country. I may buy the $7.50 car kit that has sat on the shelf for ages. then nothing gets reordered. Shortline Hobbies in Douglas WY has done this very thing. I have bought almost every single HO scale item they have. And they are not going to reorder because in their view model railroading is a dead hobby and not worth their time to bother with. At Who's Hobby House in Rapid City SD. I have nearly exausted their supply of kits. When they reorder Its with RTR items that cost nearly three times the price. I have found that I am now forced to E-bay and Mail order to get what I want. But we all know the disadvantages of these sources and I have elaborated on them before.
So what am I to do? The solution I came up with seems like a mighty good one to me. I would hope as a hobby shop owner, now aware of this need, that perhaps you can still obtain from the manufacturors more affordable items. Also I think it would be a good idea to start a healthy second hand section as I know from now on when ever I find a hobby shop that has one, I will be thoroughly going through it.
As for my situation. Its slowly getting better. Basicly throwing money down into the bottom of the hole hoping I can stand on top of it as I make my way out. Things are progressing far more slowly than I would like, but the only other option is to fall back into depression again and after nearly not surviving the last bout. Slow and steady seems to the course to stay.
I just wish I could do more to help the high prices of the hobby.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
All of those things are definatly good ways to pinch the pennies. And I several of those items already in my bag of tricks.
The one thing that is alluding me though is the 4X8 sheets of styrene. There seem to be no plastics supply houses in my area. At least none listed in the yellow pages. However foamcore is a suitable substitute for most of my modeling needs.
One thing I need to find a less expensive source for is model paints. With the amount that I have to do. Paint is simply to expensive to get in the quantities provided. Then for me mail order is the only viable solution as the only options for model paints around here is Testors.
Oh well the battle continues.
Master of Big Sky Blue wrote:One thing I need to find a less expensive source for is model paints. With the amount that I have to do. Paint is simply to expensive to get in the quantities provided. Then for me mail order is the only viable solution as the only options for model paints around here is Testors. Oh well the battle continues. James
Not to sound redundant, but I’m in the same low budget boat. If it was not for eBay, I would not be in the hobby. Although I think the deals are getting more sparse there - but that's another issue for another day.
I think the second hand market is only going to expand. A large segment of those in this hobby are currently in retirement and (trying to put this as tactfully as possible) are starting to reach the end of the line. Estate sales of pre-owned equipment are already on the rise. I’m hoping that a flood of quality second hand equipment will force manufactures to rethink their pricing.
Of course this could all change if people start taking on the practice of having their trains buried with them…
Hello James,
I've been following your posts with interest because, as I mentioned to you once in an email message, I was in a similar situation to yours in the early 1980's. Like you, I had a core group of friends and family who eased the pain enough to help me dig my way out. Since then I've gone thru cycles from having plenty of cash to being broke [my kids' school tuitions aren't cheap!].
One thing I've learned [and I have to keep re-learning it unfortunately] is that, mrr is only a hobby - it cannot be The One Thing In Life that brings me happiness. If I try to use it as a means to stardom - trying to impress everybody - then I'm setting myself up for disappointment, big-time! But when I casually spend time building a kit, painting a structure or doing some other type of train-related activity --- and sharing with a small group of friends, locally or online --- that's where the hobby 'payoff' comes in. My fondest hobby-related memories are of my late teen years, when I did not have a layout of my own but collected [and painted] Athearn BB locos and ran them on the BSME club layout. It was those memories that nudged me back into mrr'ing in my mid-thirties.
I stopped subscribing to Model Railroader and the other mags because I noticed the ads were making me anxious that I "just gotta have" this latest-and-greatest new product that's beyond my budget. The stuff I've accummulated that's sitting on my shelf can keep me quite busy for a few years, even though I realize my end results are unlikely to land in the pages of MR. As long as I accept that I'll continue to enjoy the hobby - even on my limited budget.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Its good to know that I am in good company.
Master of Big Sky Blue wrote:One thing I need to find a less expensive source for is model paints. With the amount that I have to do. Paint is simply to expensive to get in the quantities provided.
jaabat wrote:Many craft stores sell bottles of acryllic craft paint that dries very flat for $.50 each. Sometimes on sale 3/$1.