MTH and a year ago

[Anonymous]

I'm on the mailing list.   Did you suggest I made the email up?   hahaha WHY in the World would I bother?

[Anonymous]

:)   I may be wrong but I believe all the engines will offer DCC in addition to the MTH DCS standard.  Reduced features of course.

It really doesn't matter what they come out with or how good it is. It is as simple as this. 

DCS is a system that can never be more than a toy train.

Why? Becasue you can't model anything. Suppose they had 20 differnt locos. You can run only the locos they have.

I can't model the 1880's because I can't take the MDC, Bachman, and IHC models and convert then because there are no DSC decoders and DSC is not DCC compatible.

I can't model 1917 Redwoods for the same reason. I have to convert old Mantua 2-6-2s into side tankers. Oops can't run them. No decoders.  

I can't build a junky climax.

So until they put out decoders--oh wait a minute--their decoders run on 24 volts--they'll fry the 16 volt motors. So they can't release their decoders without damaging our current inventory.

DSC is a bad business plan.  

 

[Anonymous]

MTH will last in ho as long as Lionel did

 

You cant win the market over with lawyers.

[grayfox1119]

MTH must learn to be like the Palm tree, you either learn to bend in a hurricane force wind or you get taken out by the roots......know your customer base, if you want to make a radical change, it had better be darn good.

[CAZEPHYR]

I was just curious if you were on their mailing list or maybe a dealer emailed you.   I thought I might have been on their list as I sign up for most everything, but did not get anything on the availability from them.  No, I believe it is coming to market.  Dave actually has one shipping out to him on Friday according to his email.    It sounds like they are out and shipping.

I hope they produce their next model in a shorter time frame if they want to be competitive.   Lionel started up on HO three different times and stopped production three times for various reasons.  It is always good to have competition in the Model Railroading market to keep prices in check. 

 

[Anonymous]

I can only speculate but I wonder since it was their entry into the market they wanted to make sure they had a superior product.   I guess we will find out soon.  

Like I said earlier my experience with them is O scale.   Impressive.   Sound is terrific and the die cast engine is nice.  I'm not a prototype guy so I can't comment.  

Does anyone know...Are they going to have DCC controlled couplers similar to O scale?  I suspect this will be a DCS feature. 

I was just curious if you were on their mailing list or maybe a dealer emailed you.   I thought I might have been on their list as I sign up for most everything, but did not get anything on the availability from them.  No, I believe it is coming to market.  Dave actually has one shipping out to him on Friday according to his email.    It sounds like they are out and shipping.

I hope they produce their next model in a shorter time frame if they want to be competitive.   Lionel started up on HO three different times and stopped production three times for various reasons.  It is always good to have competition in the Model Railroading market to keep prices in check. 

 

[CAZEPHYR]

The HO market is fast and furious and with all of the new products announced at the National Show and products already announced, my money available to purchase duplicate products like the K4 is ruuning short.  I received the BLI K4 almost twelve months ago to add to my PFM and Spectrum models of the same engine.  I do like PRR, having been raised watching the K4's run, but only so many K4's are needed. 

If the new product had been anything other than a duplicate of an existing model, they might have done better in the start up HO sales. 

I would be curious to know how many of the K4 models they imported and is a second run coming like most of the companies follow up on.   Remember, the second run of the Lionel and Turbines are the ones they had to blow out.  I think most of the first run sold, but as problems were reported, the sales slowed down.  I had to rebuild my Lionel Challenger just to get it to run and four other Challengers that I know of were sent back for repair to Lionel.   Even the lighting on my engine did not work correctly.  

MTH will have to have deep pockets to continue in HO for sure and I don't believe they have received any money from the Lionel judgement, at least from what I read in the publications. 

 

 

 

   

[jfugate]

One thing I've noticed is MTH seems to be trying to get into the HO market using a somewhat offensive-stanced O-scale competing with Lionel mentality, but going against HO manufacturers.

The HO market is different, and I predict that unless they tone down their chest beating and focus more complementing what's already available, MTH will fail in the HO market.

I could be wrong, but I don't think you can use a one-size-fits-all marketing scheme. You need a little more creativity than that, and the HO market expects you to be more of a team player and not so much of a single source vendor like MTH is trying to be in the much smaller O-scale market.

[dave hikel]

   I've got to imagine MTH's next HO locomotive won't take nearly as long to develop.  For the K4 they not only had to do the locomotive tooling, but they also had to come out with an entirely new electronics package.  Personally, I'd like to see a diesel or USRA design for their next locomotive.  Something that can be offered in many different road names.

   As for DCS, it is NOT a toy system, and it dosen't require 24 volts.  In fact, MTH posted on their website that the MR review speed tests were not accurate.  On 16 volts DC the K4 is supposed to do 75smph, and 16 volts will runn DCS just fine.  Obviously MTH must offer decoders for us to install in our other equipment so we can model a particular time and localtion.  However, DCS offers a level of control beyond what we currrently have in DCC (even with the CV set to 128 throttle steps).  I like modeling the Cascade Mountains in O scale.  Running a W1 electric on the point of a 60 car freight consist with an R-2 (2-8-8-2 steamer) working as a helper on the rear, I can run up the grade to the portal of the Cascade Tunnel and uncouple the R-2 ON THE FLY just like the Great Northern.  Two operators running DCC could pull this off if they worked well together and their locos were programed very well.  But in DCS it's easy to do by yourself.  All locos run in scale miles per hour, with cruise control, so changes in grade and load won't muck things up.  I've run more modern consists with three Dash-9's on the point and a couple more cut in the middle for distributed power (something we used to see quite often in Seattle and over Stevens Pass).  When I would look down of the coupler in front of the pair of locomotives cut into the middle, the slack would be running in and out without tugging or shuving on the cars ahead.  Esentially I had two trains running in intimate proximity.  I'm under no illusions that DCS is going to take over HO.  DCC is here to stay.  What really make me excited is, according to MTH's spec sheet, they've included their speed control in DCC mode if your system can handle 128 throttle steps.  To me this is the best of both worlds.  My HO equipment can have the sound, lighting and speed control I've come to love in O scale on just about any DCC layout.

[DrummingTrainfan]

   I've got to imagine MTH's next HO locomotive won't take nearly as long to develop.  For the K4 they not only had to do the locomotive tooling, but they also had to come out with an entirely new electronics package.  Personally, I'd like to see a diesel or USRA design for their next locomotive.  Something that can be offered in many different road names.

   As for DCS, it is NOT a toy system, and it dosen't require 24 volts.  In fact, MTH posted on their website that the MR review speed tests were not accurate.  On 16 volts DC the K4 is supposed to do 75smph, and 16 volts will runn DCS just fine.  Obviously MTH must offer decoders for us to install in our other equipment so we can model a particular time and localtion.  However, DCS offers a level of control beyond what we currrently have in DCC (even with the CV set to 128 throttle steps).  I like modeling the Cascade Mountains in O scale.  Running a W1 electric on the point of a 60 car freight consist with an R-2 (2-8-8-2 steamer) working as a helper on the rear, I can run up the grade to the portal of the Cascade Tunnel and uncouple the R-2 ON THE FLY just like the Great Northern.  Two operators running DCC could pull this off if they worked well together and their locos were programed very well.  But in DCS it's easy to do by yourself.  All locos run in scale miles per hour, with cruise control, so changes in grade and load won't muck things up.  I've run more modern consists with three Dash-9's on the point and a couple more cut in the middle for distributed power (something we used to see quite often in Seattle and over Stevens Pass).  When I would look down of the coupler in front of the pair of locomotives cut into the middle, the slack would be running in and out without tugging or shuving on the cars ahead.  Esentially I had two trains running in intimate proximity.  I'm under no illusions that DCS is going to take over HO.  DCC is here to stay.  What really make me excited is, according to MTH's spec sheet, they've included their speed control in DCC mode if your system can handle 128 throttle steps.  To me this is the best of both worlds.  My HO equipment can have the sound, lighting and speed control I've come to love in O scale on just about any DCC layout.

I must admit that the inclusion of DC, DCC, and DCS operating abilities would probably make me more likely to buy one of their locomotives (although I don't have much money and I am no fan of steam) than the original rumor I heard of DC or DCS. If they were to make a SD70ACe for, say, $150-$200 (which is far less than any T55 product I've seen) they may have a winner for me.

[Darth Santa Fe]

By this time next year, 1.34 HO scale model railroaders will have thought about switching to DCS.

By this time next year, 1 HO scale model railroader will have switched to DCS (most likely mthrules).

Let's see if those predictions come true.

I wonder why mthrules hasn't come through here yet? Hmm...

[Anonymous]

One thing I've noticed is MTH seems to be trying to get into the HO market using a somewhat offensive-stanced O-scale competing with Lionel mentality, but going against HO manufacturers.

The HO market is different, and I predict that unless they tone down their chest beating and focus more complementing what's already available, MTH will fail in the HO market.

I could be wrong, but I don't think you can use a one-size-fits-all marketing scheme. You need a little more creativity than that, and the HO market expects you to be more of a team player and not so much of a single source vendor like MTH is trying to be in the much smaller O-scale market.

Joe, you're exactly right. In HO, I think there is kind of an un-written rule amongst the manufactuers not to flame each other. Anyone notice there had almost never been an HO add like the MTH one until it came out? In HO, the manufactuers more or less work together, thanks to the NMRA no doubt, but I've never seen Kato flaming Athearn because their SD70MAC is better than Athearn's, for example.

I personally think it's to late for MTH now. They came into HO with lawsuits at their heels, and they attack BLI. They're just to far gone, the vast majority of HO modelers want nothing to do with MTH now.

[CAZEPHYR]

The example you stated about the SD70MAC's is a perfect example of two competing companies both offering good products overall and not bashing anyone. 

The Kato's run better, but the Genesis shell has advantages, in my opinion.  The colors used is another reason I perfer the Genesis shell.  I really like Kato's, but their final colors are not my choice.  The Kato Santa Fe Warbonnet red looks like they get when they are faded and after the oxidation sets in.

I did not take offense to the MTH advertisement, but ignored it in general.  MTH choose to compare their 1928 version of a model, which I would not buy.  The forties and fifties era is the version I model in because I had opportunity to see them run.  They were modified when I first saw them and why would I want to model the older version with the incorrect whistle sound. 

I also have too many K4's already to consider buying more.  After all, even the PRR only had 425. 

Now I need to figure out what that number would be in 1/87 scale.

 

[rrinker]

  
   As for DCS, it is NOT a toy system, and it dosen't require 24 volts.  In fact, MTH posted on their website that the MR review speed tests were not accurate.  On 16 volts DC the K4 is supposed to do 75smph, and 16 volts will runn DCS just fine.  Obviously MTH must offer decoders for us to install in our other equipment so we can model a particular time and localtion.  However, DCS offers a level of control beyond what we currrently have in DCC (even with the CV set to 128 throttle steps).  I like modeling the Cascade Mountains in O scale.  Running a W1 electric on the point of a 60 car freight consist with an R-2 (2-8-8-2 steamer) working as a helper on the rear, I can run up the grade to the portal of the Cascade Tunnel and uncouple the R-2 ON THE FLY just like the Great Northern.  Two operators running DCC could pull this off if they worked well together and their locos were programed very well.  But in DCS it's easy to do by yourself.  All locos run in scale miles per hour, with cruise control, so changes in grade and load won't muck things up.  I've run more modern consists with three Dash-9's on the point and a couple more cut in the middle for distributed power (something we used to see quite often in Seattle and over Stevens Pass).  When I would look down of the coupler in front of the pair of locomotives cut into the middle, the slack would be running in and out without tugging or shuving on the cars ahead.  Esentially I had two trains running in intimate proximity.  I'm under no illusions that DCS is going to take over HO.  DCC is here to stay.  What really make me excited is, according to MTH's spec sheet, they've included their speed control in DCC mode if your system can handle 128 throttle steps.  To me this is the best of both worlds.  My HO equipment can have the sound, lighting and speed control I've come to love in O scale on just about any DCC layout.

 
 Pretty easy to do by myself on my Digitrax system as the throttle has 2 knobs so I have independent control over two locos/consists at the same time, with no odd flipping back and forth required. And plenty of HO and even N operators do helpers ops with DCC with no problems, including cutting off the helpers on the fly.
 The fact remains, as good as DCS might be, if they do not license it to others, it will NEVER succeed in the market. It's not as big a deal in the hi-rail market where there aren't many choices, but in HO where there are so many manufacturers, being stuck with just one will never work. Notice that some of the new Atlas O offerings are available with TMCC - why? Because Lionel seems to be smart enough to license it out. Maybe Atlas wanted to put DCS in their locos, but since MTH won't license it - they go with TMCC. This very well may be another Beta Vs. VHS. Beta really is technically superior, but Sony refused to license it. Perhaps Mike and his management need to review a little history.

                           --Randy

[Anonymous]

CAZEPHYR, you might notice that the "CurtMc" above does not put a space in his name...  He had nothing to do with the National Train Show photos posted on the Atlas forum... (and hopefully he hasn't claimed that he did)

Those postings and photos on the Atlas forum were made by me, the real Curt Mc (Note: With space - same as I use on the Atlas forum)...

I get the impression somebody wants to try to imitate me here and forgot to put the space in the name when he registered...  So I drop in every now and then to see what "CurtMc" here is up to.

By the way, glad you enjoyed my photos, if you have any questions on them just send me a personal message or e-mail over on the Atlas HO forum where I normally hang out...

- Curt Mc (the real one)

 

 

 

[dwRavenstar]

Heyas,

I dunno Joe, seems to me the difference between drool and spit is momentum and trajectory.

All I know about MTH is what I've seen in here and their ad campaign.  If you develop momentum at the rate MTH seems to have or you buck a stiff wind you wind up with a wet spot on the front of your shirt.  It seems MTH is doing the drooling while everyone else is doing the spitting.

Their re-invention of the wheel campaign places them in the same position of a bottled water outfit trying to campaign against their competition.  What can you do but advertise negatively about your competition in your attempt to create the appearance of product diversity?

dwRavenstar

[CAZEPHYR]

Curt

Thanks for the clarification.   Except for the space, the names are the same and could be mistaken for one another at first glance.  I appreciated your effort at the show to give us the latest information from the manufacturers.

   CAZEPHYR

[csmith9474]

Where is the "beating a dead horse" smiley when you need one?

[cjcrescent]

 

   As for DCS, it is NOT a toy system, and it dosen't require 24 volts.  In fact, MTH posted on their website that the MR review speed tests were not accurate.  On 16 volts DC the K4 is supposed to do 75smph, and 16 volts will runn DCS just fine. 

They may not have been "accurate" but they were more realistic than what MTH says.

NMRA specifics 12 volts to the track, (I will concede that some powerpacks may go to 14v, but I also believe these are not the norm, and not at full load,) so now with most power packs you already have a 4v deficit. That's 1/4 of the 16v MTH "recommends" so you are now down to a DC max speed of 57smph. Kinda slow for a loco that runs around 75-80 mph. Here is the S-9 standard off of the NMRA web site:
A. Full throttle voltage available at railhead shall not be less than 12 volts direct current at maximum anticipated load. (1)

A lot of MRs will use their one and only powerpack to power not just the trains, but the switch machines and the lights in the buildings, which places a further load on the pack which WILL reduce the amount of  current to the track. The trains will have 12v to work with and NOT 16v. Again a little sleight of hand work by MTH. The loco will run slower on 12v, the hobby standard, and not the 16v that seems the magic number for MTH.

A lot of guys also have separate power supplies for their switches and lights, but I don't think I have ever seen a powerpack for HO that can put out a max of 16v DC for the throttle at full load.

[AntonioFP45]

Simon, shhhhhh!

Now why do you want to rush our "friend"?  Let him take his time.....he'll be back soon enough and we'll all be ready to welcome him.

 

 

 

 

[jeffshultz]

You know, it is kinda scary - but having MTH attack them might be the best thing for BLI. Thanks to certain models... and a bit of attitude, BLI wasn't all that highly thought of either.

But you know how it goes, "Yeah, he's an idiot - but he's our idiot."

[Vampire]

I took a look at this model at the Train Show. It looks like a pretty nice loco but, assuming I modelled the Pennsy and ran only DC, I would not purchase one because of the unique power requirements. Granted that NMRA spec only mentions minimum voltage at railhead but a little research would tell you that 12-14V was a typical maximum for HO.

I'm still trying to figure out why they would design the electronics like that, unless it was some concession to having 3-way compatibility (DC, DCC, DCS). Oh well, we may never know.

Now, about this "CurtMC" conspiracy...