I took a look at this model at the Train Show. It looks like a pretty nice loco but, assuming I modelled the Pennsy and ran only DC, I would not purchase one because of the unique power requirements. Granted that NMRA spec only mentions minimum voltage at railhead but a little research would tell you that 12-14V was a typical maximum for HO.
I'm still trying to figure out why they would design the electronics like that, unless it was some concession to having 3-way compatibility (DC, DCC, DCS). Oh well, we may never know.
Now, about this "CurtMC" conspiracy...
Simon, shhhhhh!
Now why do you want to rush our "friend"? Let him take his time.....he'll be back soon enough and we'll all be ready to welcome him.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
dave hikel wrote: As for DCS, it is NOT a toy system, and it dosen't require 24 volts. In fact, MTH posted on their website that the MR review speed tests were not accurate. On 16 volts DC the K4 is supposed to do 75smph, and 16 volts will runn DCS just fine.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Curt
Thanks for the clarification. Except for the space, the names are the same and could be mistaken for one another at first glance. I appreciated your effort at the show to give us the latest information from the manufacturers.
CAZEPHYR
Heyas,
I dunno Joe, seems to me the difference between drool and spit is momentum and trajectory.
All I know about MTH is what I've seen in here and their ad campaign. If you develop momentum at the rate MTH seems to have or you buck a stiff wind you wind up with a wet spot on the front of your shirt. It seems MTH is doing the drooling while everyone else is doing the spitting.
Their re-invention of the wheel campaign places them in the same position of a bottled water outfit trying to campaign against their competition. What can you do but advertise negatively about your competition in your attempt to create the appearance of product diversity?
dwRavenstar
CAZEPHYR, you might notice that the "CurtMc" above does not put a space in his name... He had nothing to do with the National Train Show photos posted on the Atlas forum... (and hopefully he hasn't claimed that he did)
Those postings and photos on the Atlas forum were made by me, the real Curt Mc (Note: With space - same as I use on the Atlas forum)...
I get the impression somebody wants to try to imitate me here and forgot to put the space in the name when he registered... So I drop in every now and then to see what "CurtMc" here is up to.
By the way, glad you enjoyed my photos, if you have any questions on them just send me a personal message or e-mail over on the Atlas HO forum where I normally hang out...
- Curt Mc (the real one)
dave hikel wrote: As for DCS, it is NOT a toy system, and it dosen't require 24 volts. In fact, MTH posted on their website that the MR review speed tests were not accurate. On 16 volts DC the K4 is supposed to do 75smph, and 16 volts will runn DCS just fine. Obviously MTH must offer decoders for us to install in our other equipment so we can model a particular time and localtion. However, DCS offers a level of control beyond what we currrently have in DCC (even with the CV set to 128 throttle steps). I like modeling the Cascade Mountains in O scale. Running a W1 electric on the point of a 60 car freight consist with an R-2 (2-8-8-2 steamer) working as a helper on the rear, I can run up the grade to the portal of the Cascade Tunnel and uncouple the R-2 ON THE FLY just like the Great Northern. Two operators running DCC could pull this off if they worked well together and their locos were programed very well. But in DCS it's easy to do by yourself. All locos run in scale miles per hour, with cruise control, so changes in grade and load won't muck things up. I've run more modern consists with three Dash-9's on the point and a couple more cut in the middle for distributed power (something we used to see quite often in Seattle and over Stevens Pass). When I would look down of the coupler in front of the pair of locomotives cut into the middle, the slack would be running in and out without tugging or shuving on the cars ahead. Esentially I had two trains running in intimate proximity. I'm under no illusions that DCS is going to take over HO. DCC is here to stay. What really make me excited is, according to MTH's spec sheet, they've included their speed control in DCC mode if your system can handle 128 throttle steps. To me this is the best of both worlds. My HO equipment can have the sound, lighting and speed control I've come to love in O scale on just about any DCC layout.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The example you stated about the SD70MAC's is a perfect example of two competing companies both offering good products overall and not bashing anyone.
The Kato's run better, but the Genesis shell has advantages, in my opinion. The colors used is another reason I perfer the Genesis shell. I really like Kato's, but their final colors are not my choice. The Kato Santa Fe Warbonnet red looks like they get when they are faded and after the oxidation sets in.
I did not take offense to the MTH advertisement, but ignored it in general. MTH choose to compare their 1928 version of a model, which I would not buy. The forties and fifties era is the version I model in because I had opportunity to see them run. They were modified when I first saw them and why would I want to model the older version with the incorrect whistle sound.
I also have too many K4's already to consider buying more. After all, even the PRR only had 425.
Now I need to figure out what that number would be in 1/87 scale.
jfugate wrote:One thing I've noticed is MTH seems to be trying to get into the HO market using a somewhat offensive-stanced O-scale competing with Lionel mentality, but going against HO manufacturers.The HO market is different, and I predict that unless they tone down their chest beating and focus more complementing what's already available, MTH will fail in the HO market.I could be wrong, but I don't think you can use a one-size-fits-all marketing scheme. You need a little more creativity than that, and the HO market expects you to be more of a team player and not so much of a single source vendor like MTH is trying to be in the much smaller O-scale market.
I personally think it's to late for MTH now. They came into HO with lawsuits at their heels, and they attack BLI. They're just to far gone, the vast majority of HO modelers want nothing to do with MTH now.
By this time next year, 1.34 HO scale model railroaders will have thought about switching to DCS.
By this time next year, 1 HO scale model railroader will have switched to DCS (most likely mthrules).
Let's see if those predictions come true.
I wonder why mthrules hasn't come through here yet? Hmm...
_________________________________________________________________
dave hikel wrote: I've got to imagine MTH's next HO locomotive won't take nearly as long to develop. For the K4 they not only had to do the locomotive tooling, but they also had to come out with an entirely new electronics package. Personally, I'd like to see a diesel or USRA design for their next locomotive. Something that can be offered in many different road names. As for DCS, it is NOT a toy system, and it dosen't require 24 volts. In fact, MTH posted on their website that the MR review speed tests were not accurate. On 16 volts DC the K4 is supposed to do 75smph, and 16 volts will runn DCS just fine. Obviously MTH must offer decoders for us to install in our other equipment so we can model a particular time and localtion. However, DCS offers a level of control beyond what we currrently have in DCC (even with the CV set to 128 throttle steps). I like modeling the Cascade Mountains in O scale. Running a W1 electric on the point of a 60 car freight consist with an R-2 (2-8-8-2 steamer) working as a helper on the rear, I can run up the grade to the portal of the Cascade Tunnel and uncouple the R-2 ON THE FLY just like the Great Northern. Two operators running DCC could pull this off if they worked well together and their locos were programed very well. But in DCS it's easy to do by yourself. All locos run in scale miles per hour, with cruise control, so changes in grade and load won't muck things up. I've run more modern consists with three Dash-9's on the point and a couple more cut in the middle for distributed power (something we used to see quite often in Seattle and over Stevens Pass). When I would look down of the coupler in front of the pair of locomotives cut into the middle, the slack would be running in and out without tugging or shuving on the cars ahead. Esentially I had two trains running in intimate proximity. I'm under no illusions that DCS is going to take over HO. DCC is here to stay. What really make me excited is, according to MTH's spec sheet, they've included their speed control in DCC mode if your system can handle 128 throttle steps. To me this is the best of both worlds. My HO equipment can have the sound, lighting and speed control I've come to love in O scale on just about any DCC layout.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
The HO market is fast and furious and with all of the new products announced at the National Show and products already announced, my money available to purchase duplicate products like the K4 is ruuning short. I received the BLI K4 almost twelve months ago to add to my PFM and Spectrum models of the same engine. I do like PRR, having been raised watching the K4's run, but only so many K4's are needed.
If the new product had been anything other than a duplicate of an existing model, they might have done better in the start up HO sales.
I would be curious to know how many of the K4 models they imported and is a second run coming like most of the companies follow up on. Remember, the second run of the Lionel and Turbines are the ones they had to blow out. I think most of the first run sold, but as problems were reported, the sales slowed down. I had to rebuild my Lionel Challenger just to get it to run and four other Challengers that I know of were sent back for repair to Lionel. Even the lighting on my engine did not work correctly.
MTH will have to have deep pockets to continue in HO for sure and I don't believe they have received any money from the Lionel judgement, at least from what I read in the publications.
CAZEPHYR wrote:I was just curious if you were on their mailing list or maybe a dealer emailed you. I thought I might have been on their list as I sign up for most everything, but did not get anything on the availability from them. No, I believe it is coming to market. Dave actually has one shipping out to him on Friday according to his email. It sounds like they are out and shipping. I hope they produce their next model in a shorter time frame if they want to be competitive. Lionel started up on HO three different times and stopped production three times for various reasons. It is always good to have competition in the Model Railroading market to keep prices in check.
I was just curious if you were on their mailing list or maybe a dealer emailed you. I thought I might have been on their list as I sign up for most everything, but did not get anything on the availability from them. No, I believe it is coming to market. Dave actually has one shipping out to him on Friday according to his email. It sounds like they are out and shipping.
I hope they produce their next model in a shorter time frame if they want to be competitive. Lionel started up on HO three different times and stopped production three times for various reasons. It is always good to have competition in the Model Railroading market to keep prices in check.
MTH will last in ho as long as Lionel did
You cant win the market over with lawyers.
SpaceMouse wrote:It really doesn't matter what they come out with or how good it is. It is as simple as this. DCS is a system that can never be more than a toy train. Why? Becasue you can't model anything. Suppose they had 20 differnt locos. You can run only the locos they have. I can't model the 1880's because I can't take the MDC, Bachman, and IHC models and convert then because there are no DSC decoders and DSC is not DCC compatible. I can't model 1917 Redwoods for the same reason. I have to convert old Mantua 2-6-2s into side tankers. Oops can't run them. No decoders. I can't build a junky climax. So until they put out decoders--oh wait a minute--their decoders run on 24 volts--they'll fry the 16 volt motors. So they can't release their decoders without damaging our current inventory. DSC is a bad business plan.
It really doesn't matter what they come out with or how good it is. It is as simple as this.
DCS is a system that can never be more than a toy train.
Why? Becasue you can't model anything. Suppose they had 20 differnt locos. You can run only the locos they have.
I can't model the 1880's because I can't take the MDC, Bachman, and IHC models and convert then because there are no DSC decoders and DSC is not DCC compatible.
I can't model 1917 Redwoods for the same reason. I have to convert old Mantua 2-6-2s into side tankers. Oops can't run them. No decoders.
I can't build a junky climax.
So until they put out decoders--oh wait a minute--their decoders run on 24 volts--they'll fry the 16 volt motors. So they can't release their decoders without damaging our current inventory.
DSC is a bad business plan.
Dave
Let us know how the K4 runs and if you are happy with the whistle sound. The whistle sound I heard on the video on the MTH web was disappointing to me. I watched the K4's and they all had the passenger whistle during the late forties and used that whistle until the end of steam.
The sound on the video was the 1927 banshie whistle, much like the UK used on their general locomotives. My thought on this, they should have the correct whistle on the post war engine, You might be getting the early version and want the unit as it is. I emailed MTH about this issue and they emailed back that only one whistle sound would be available.
The smoke looked good and their #1 scale does a good job of puffing and timing the smoke to the chuffs, but you have to be careful not to run them dry of smoke liquid or it will damage the unit. Maybe they have a function to shut it down if it is low.
If you don't mind, give us a user type of review when you get time. Try to run it on DC if you can and see if the MR review was correct for the top speed of 36mph on DC. This might have been corrected since that preliminary review. .
Thank you
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
dave hikel wrote:Hi guys,Well, I have a UPS tracking number for my MTH K4, which is predicted to arrive on Friday. My local train store received their shipment a couple days ago. I haven't made it into the store to see and run the locomotive, but the guys I talked to were very pleased.You talk about MTH having to earn respect in the HO world. This is obviously true. But Atlas, Athearn, BLI, etc. had best not make the same mistake Lionel did. Lionel wasn't worried about competition from MTH until about 1999. By that point MTH had nearly caught Lionel in market share, and they did it by offering high quality, scale locomatives with the kind of detail those of us in O gauge had only seen in brass.Those of us in HO have mainly heard of MTH in the negative light of lawsuits, patent complaints and rough advertising. But in O, MTH has built a reputation for offering a WIDE variety of top shelf products. What's more they opened up the world of prototypical operation for a lot of people who had only run toys around a circle of track with DCS. When DCS came out in 2002 the only other command control system in 3-rail O gauge was Lionel's TMCC, which at the time had not yet been licensed to the other manufacturers. DCS was able to run both systems and has become very popular.As for something to drool over, I'm waiting for the first blueberry pie of the season.
Dave,
If MTH doesn't shorten HO model development time their presence in HO market will be fleeting. The HO market is very dynamic and with K4 MTH proved to be very slow on their feet.If they get their act together maybe they have a chance, time will tell. At this point I'm not optimistic about their chances.
As of this point I don't think MTH has given Atlas,Athearn,BLI,etc. much to lose sleep over.JMHO
Jon
I think this sounds exactly as Microsoft advertising. Just wait until Vista arrives and everyone can live in a nice world without any problems. I have heard all this before, many times
It's time MTH show us something more then words. Will they?