The 11 Myths of Model Railroading - Myth #5

[cmrproducts]

The 11 Myths of Model Railroading

#1 – Zero maintenance layout (2200 sq ft layout) – You can’t maintain a large layout by yourself
#2 – DCC 8 amp boosters and welding engine wheels of the engine derails
#3 – Track Cleaning – Never again!
#4 – Reverse Loops – Using a toggle switch with DCC
#5 – Not removing ties on flex track
#6 – IDC connectors - 3M scotch locks/Suitcase connectors for track wiring-NEVER
#7 - The Rolling Stock Truck Tuner tool & why do you need one
#8 – Soldering Track Joints
#9 – Homasote Expansion vs Wood
#10 – DCC and you have to modify the turnouts – YOU DON”T
#11 – Homasote Cost – making a mess when cutting – You Don’t have to make dust when cutting

PLW the MRR Myth Busters – #5 - The Myth is:

You have to remove several ties at each end of flex track to install the track jointers!


No you Don’t. This Myth was started because the person thought that they could save some time. It was a lazy way of installing the jointers as they were used to the old sectional track having the ties recessed for the jointers.

You do not have to remove any ties when putting on the rail jointer. Just use a knife to cut the little plastic tabs off that clamps the tie to the rail. I then pu***he tie down a little and slide on the metal jointer between the ties and the rail. Then I solder the joint and as the heat dissipates into the rail the plastic tie softens up a little and it will let the metal jointer settle down into the tie ever so slightly.

Now there is no hump as the joint is now level with the rest of the track. I have used this method for the last 20 years. The one thing I hate is going back and trying to put the ties back in after I am done.

I have seen so many layouts, that I have visited that have never went back and put the ties in or if they did you could always see it!


>>>All of these techniques have been proven on a HO scale home layout with over 15 scale miles of mainline track and has over 2800 feet of track (42 scale miles) total in place, so far. The layout hosts bi-weekly Operations and yearly OPTUD’s (OP Till U Drop) 12 hour sessions and has had up to 40 operators at some of these sessions. The layout runs Digitrax DCC Radio. All of these so called MRR Myths have been Busted as this layout has been in operation for over 5 years and we have proven these over and over again.<<<

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts
PLW the MRR Myth Busters – #5 - The Myth is:
You have to remove several ties at each end of flex track to install the track jointers!

No you Don’t.

Well, yes, you mosty do. Read on.

QUOTE:
This Myth was started because the person thought that they could save some time. It was a lazy way of installing the jointers as they were used to the old sectional track having the ties recessed for the jointers.

What are you talking about? Sectional track with rail joiner cutouts isn't that old (1960s at best), and the REAL reason for removing the end ties on flextrack is so that you avoid having the hump at joints, where the ties pu***he rails up at the joiner. To NOT remove the ties is lazy, sloppy, and quick, and can lead to hours of fun tracking down derailments.

QUOTE:
You do not have to remove any ties when putting on the rail jointer.

True...IF you use Peco track, which comes with a neat little slot molded between the ties and the rails to hold the joiner, or IF you spend a lot of time manually carving such a slot into conventional flextrack ties.

QUOTE:
Just use a knife to cut the little plastic tabs off that clamps the tie to the rail. I then pu***he tie down a little and slide on the metal jointer between the ties and the rail. Then I solder the joint and as the heat dissipates into the rail the plastic tie softens up a little and it will let the metal jointer settle down into the tie ever so slightly.

I don't see this working. I've soldered professionally (PC boards), and so know how to use an iron. I've also soldered many scale miles of joints and feeders, and solder together steam kits. Plastic ties don't let you melt them "a little". They're either solid, or melted. Period. If they're melted, you've ruined them, and should cut them out anyway. I dare someone to try to heat embed metal into plastic ties and make it work consistently (how many miles of track did he say he has?)

QUOTE:
The one thing I hate is going back and trying to put the ties back in after I am done.

Why? It's about as fast and simple as you can get in this hobby. Unless I really want the tie plate detail (which is rarely) I don't even bother reusing the plastic ties. I've got a bag of Micro Engineering prestained ties that has lasted me two layout's worth of tie insertions. Just add a little dab of white glue to the roadbed, slide the tie under the rails, make sure everything's even, and done.

QUOTE:
>>>All of these techniques have been proven on a HO scale home layout with over 15 scale miles of mainline track and has over 2800 feet of track (42 scale miles) total in place, so far. The layout hosts bi-weekly Operations and yearly OPTUD’s (OP Till U Drop) 12 hour sessions and has had up to 40 operators at some of these sessions. The layout runs Digitrax DCC Radio. All of these so called MRR Myths have been Busted as this layout has been in operation for over 5 years and we have proven these over and over again.<<<
BOB H - Clarion, PA

That's nice, and you're entitled to your opinions, but at least in this case, your're dead wrong. Hobby conventional wisdom, tested over thousands of REAL miles of tens of thousands of modeler's layouts, over a period of 40+ years prove that in virtually ALL cases, it's best to remove end ties when using flextrack.

You'll be telling us to not solder rail joints next (oh wait....)

[Paul3]

I gotta agree with orsonroy on this one. I've tried doing this Bob's way, and it didn't work for me. So I simply file my ties and slip them back under the rail. Viola! All done. The trick, however, is to make sure that you don't allow your ties to get seriously out of spacing with the others...but that can be done with some care in the laying of the track in the first place.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[beegle55]

I have to agree also. It's just plain better to cut off the tie. No offense, but have some amount of backing before you call it a myth!! It isn't required, but its alot better and looks better too! [:(!]

[howmus]

On this one, I have to agree with the others, cmrproducts. Much easier to cut some ties off the end, solder the joints, and then reinstall the ties after trimming them down to fit properly. Looks better and makes for smoother track and less derailments. Period!

[dknelson]

My experience is that homasote makes dust when it is sawed. It makes some dust with a handsaw, more dust with an electric. Having a vacuum cleaner nearby helps. Doing it outside helps too. It is not enough to keep me from using the stuff. Bob, how do you not make dust when cutting homasote with an electric saw?
Dave Nelson

[JDCoop]

Well, I guess I have to be different. I basically do it the same as cmrproducts (not completely the same, mind you). I don't have lumpy track. I don't have derailment problems. Ultimately, I've removed ties at the joint and I've left the ties on at the joint, painted and weathered the track, ballasted the track, and now could not tell you which method was used on any of the joints. Doing anything right takes time. If you do it the way cmrproducts is suggesting and ru***hrough it, yeah, you will get lumpy track. Been there, done that. I slowed down and stayed on the railjoint until I was satisfied. No lumps. No bumps. No kinks. No derailments. I can operate a properly weighted 40-car train backwards and forwards throughout the entire layout without a derailment (unless I run through a switch...better known as operator error).

Oh, and I guess I am in a true minority. I don't solder railjoints either. The only things I solder is the feeders on Peco switch machines and the feeders on the push-buttons. All of my wiring is connected by using either bars or UR gel splice connectors. My feeders are the pre-made rail-joiner types (I only wi***he wire was a heavier gauge). Conductivity problems you say? Nope, not one. In fact, while building the layout and before having all of the wiring connected, I was operating 85-ft of track with 1 set of feeders without any ill effects (however, all of the feeders have been connected as I wouldn't trust 1 set of feeders to permanently supply 85-ft of track).

The bottom line is to each his own. I've done it both ways and I'm not going to pronounce that one way is best (as there is no absolute in this argument). If you want to cut off the ties, cut away. If not, do it cmrproducts' way. In everything in life there are right ways, wrong ways, and preferences. That's where the debate begins and ends.

Jeff

[tomikawaTT]

Ties should be removed when there is a valid reason for doing so.

Rail joiner thickness isn't a valid reason. That's why there are #11 hobby knife blades.

Maybe the idea that all rail joints have to fall at the ends of sections of flex track should be myth #5A. In my case, I slide the loose rail of Atlas flex so the rail joints have at least a couple of inches of stagger. Much easier to avoid kinks! Wherever the end of that loose rail ends up, I carefully remove the cast plastic spikes and a little of the tie itself, enough so that the rail joiner doesn't force the rail end upward. If on a curve, a little pre-bending is in order - as is the liberal use of the NMRA gauge.

Strangely enough, I do remove some plastic ties - but for an entirely different reason. In 1964 my prototype was replacing wooden ties with concrete ties under existing jointed rails. At each rail joint, the two wooden ties supporting the angle bars were left in place, and two concrete ties were dropped off to the side. To simulate that effect, I cut out two concrete ties every 200mm, then insert weathered-looking wood ties and spike them in place. The cleaned-up concrete ties will go back onto the subroadbed as part of the cosmetic scenery detailing.

Chuck

[cmrproducts]

dknelson and others

Who said anything about cutting the Homasote with a saw of any kind?



This is the problem everyone just assumes they know the only way to do something and then when someone calls everyone on it they suddenly state that the new idea is wrong.


I have been doing the no tie removal for at least 20 years and it is way faster for me only because I don’t want to go back and put the ties in.

And I have seen so many layout where the owner has not put the ties back in or did so carelessly that it probably would look better if they had not even tried! Just watch the Northlanz video one time or visit the display and you will see this, and this is suppose to be a professional operation?

I am not trying to impose my ideas on the veterans on this forum but am trying to throw out these ideas to the NuBe’s. The veterans are stuck in their ways and will never change no matter how much I can show them a different and maybe a better way. And anyone that argues with the last statement just proves my point!

The NuBe’s are not set in their ways and need to see other ways of accomplishing tasks that just might be faster and better for THEM. And my way may not be the only way to do the job but is a proven concept. There are too many other modelers that are using these methods or that have changed over after seeing the results. Just as noted on some of the above replies!

Oh by the way, I also have done computer repair for quite a number of years, so I know my way around a circuit board. Even spend some time engineering and manufacturing PC boards.


BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Pruitt]

I do the old tie-removal-and-later-replacement thing. It works great for me. If Bob's approach works better for him, that's great, too. What counts is the end result - good looking and flawlessly functioning track. How we get there is up to each of us. I've never considered doing what Bob does (never thought of it, actually), but if it does the job, that's what's important. I appreciate hearing about alternate ways of doing things I've spent years doing the same old way - sometimes the alternate way is better. Sometimes it makes no difference. But I always like hearing about it.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

This is the problem everyone just assumes they know the only way to do something and then when someone calls everyone on it they suddenly state that the new idea is wrong.

Sometimes they are not wrong. Sometimes they just have an alternate way of doing something that works for them. What is not a good idea, however, is assuming that people like to be called 'wrong'. This will usually draw out heated disagreement on this forum.

QUOTE: I am not trying to impose my ideas on the veterans on this forum but am trying to throw out these ideas to the NuBe’s.

Then perhaps they should be presented as ideas instead of myths to be busted. I think you will upset less people that way.

QUOTE: The veterans are stuck in their ways and will never change no matter how much I can show them a different and maybe a better way. And anyone that argues with the last statement just proves my point!

If that were true, then you just proved your own point about yourself. But I don’t believe in such generalizations.

Besides, what does it matter? This is supposed to be a hobby, not a business that is depending on people to get it right all the time.

QUOTE: Oh by the way, I also have done computer repair for quite a number of years, so I know my way around a circuit board. Even spend some time engineering and manufacturing PC boards.

And I routinely handle money in the millions everyday. Does that automatically make me an expert on it? Hardly, since the money is not mine. [;)]

Bob – In general you have some good input here. However, I think if it were presented in a less condescending way (it’s a myth and the veterans are wrong), you might have a more sympathetic audience.

[cmrproducts]

MAbruce

Maybe I could have used a less demanding title but one thing for sure there have been hundreds at least looked at the proposals. Something that probably not have happened had I just stated I have done this or that a different way.

Sometimes one has to poke the bee hive to get some attention, but there is always a consequence as you may just get stung! And I knew this going in!


BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Texas Zepher]

Well I never thought I would be posting to these threads ..... but....

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy
To NOT remove the ties is lazy, sloppy, and quick, and can lead to hours of fun tracking down derailments.....That's nice, and you're entitled to your opinions, but at least in this case, your're dead wrong. Hobby conventional wisdom, tested over thousands of REAL miles of tens of thousands of modeler's layouts, over a period of 40+ years prove that in virtually ALL cases, it's best to remove end ties when using flextrack.

Hogwash, my 40+ years experience says different. The method described can be just as smooth and trouble free as any other. Not only on my own layout(s) but on the club's. My joints where ties were not cut have been the most trouble free of all the zillions of methods used by the members over the last 23 years. I think only 1 of mine has had to be redone, and even then it was because a turnout a bit further down had to be replaced and they were careless taking it out and kinked the track.


I wish I had some pictures where people have used the "slide the extra ties" in method.

I know skill has something to do with it, so perhaps it isn't really the method but the craftsmanship of the person doing it.

[whitman500]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

MAbruce

Maybe I could have used a less demanding title but one thing for sure there have been hundreds at least looked at the proposals. Something that probably not have happened had I just stated I have done this or that a different way.

Sometimes one has to poke the bee hive to get some attention, but there is always a consequence as you may just get stung! And I knew this going in!


BOB H – Clarion, PA

I agree. Given that the same topics are endlessly rehashed on this forum, one of the main reasons for reading it is to see veteran modelers argue. The more heated it gets, the more interesting it is to read.

[jbloch]

As I'm a newbie and haven't even started my benchwork yet, I find this issue/technique an important discussion. I like Bob's idea of the heat/molding effect of securing the joiner to the tie--seems less cumbersome than having to pull the ties off, cut a bigger groove in the tie, put the ties back on while hopefully forming these new grooves in guage. But I have a couple of concerns: (1) It seems like the duration of the solder-heat is critical to "softening" the tie the right/and yet not too much amount. Did it take you much trial and error to get this down? (2) I don't plan on soldering my straight flex track anyway (plan on putting the feeders on the flextrack rail and not at the joiners--see other threads for the reasoning behind this)--but guess could just put the iron on the joint to heat it without soldering it

Jim.

[rrinker]

Nothing 'critical' about filing the grooves. All I do is nip off the 'spike' detail with my rail nippers or sprue cutter, and you still have the molded-in flat spot that is supposed to be the tie plate. A couple of passes with a round file, groove in the right place. It doesn;t have to be perfect, it's not there to actually hold anything or align anything, it's merely there to fill in the unprototypical gap where the ties were removed.

--Randy

[selector]

Having just spent two weeks recently trying to get my track to a C+ to B- level of smoothness, I can assure our onlookers that when I had to use a joiner over a tie using flextrack, I first had to ensure that the spike heads were well and truly cut away. Moreso, I sometimes found it necessary to actually remove the offending tie, scrape away a half-millimeter or so of plastic below where the rail would sit, and only then would the joiner permit the two ends to lie flush with the rest of the rail extending on either side of the gap. Other times, just gouging out enough with the blade during the spike head removal seemed to get enough of the tie surface below the rail that the joiner would actually lie low enough to get that same flush look.

I would have to practice for some time to get the right heat to the ties to get them to soften just right. Oh, and how I have softened a few ties...lemme tell ya!

[cmrproducts]

jbloch

This process of soldering the jointers and letting it melt into the tie was not something I really spent a lot of time developing, it just sort of happened.

It seemed that when I would solder the joint that it just naturally returned to the proper height so I really did not plan on doing this. When I first tried this method of not removing ties I had seen others using the Dremel tool and they would just under cut the rail with the cutting disk by cutting into the plastic tie. This usually left quite a space and also left the tie looking quite cut up.

I figured that with the metal jointer being only .010 thick that it would not matter much but it did left the rail humped up some.

Also I used to solder the drop wires to the middle of the 3 ft flex track but then when I would try and make any changes the solder spot would not let the track flex smoothly and if I tried to get all of the solder off it just melted the ties in that area so I began just soldering the drop wire to the track jointer when I decided to solder all of my track joints.

Now I know that I am in the minority on the thoughts of soldering all of my track joints! But apparently I must have my room humidity under control as I do not have the problems other seems to be reporting. While it could be my method of using OSB for the subroadbed or just room conditions, I have really not experienced this problem.

But back to the ties and soldering joints, it could be that with me adding the extra time in heating both the jointer and the drop wire adds enough heat to let the jointer snuggle down into the plastic tie and not cause any melting of the tie.

Now I do have to admit I have melted a few ties over the years but this was probably due to a dirty joint more than anything and the added heat just could not be dissipated through the rail fast enough and it overheated the plastic tie.

BOB H – Clarion, PA