Holy Philadelphia Mint, Batman!!

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966
To find out that such a highly regarded RR has its faults is comforting. I imagine that total perfection in running characteristcs is an unrealistic goal. Thanks Joe for your frank answer. I was just poking fun with the throw away comment, but I appreciate the serious nature of the response. (serious sounds wrong...honest, thought provoking perhaps).

I just know when I got my advanced copy of Realistic Layouts and I opened up to the lead photo spread featuring a scene on my layout -- my immediate first reaction was, "man, that looks better than the actual layout!" [swg]

That scene is about two feet long and is bracketed by bare plaster on both sides. If you walk by it in person, you'll almost miss it since there's still so much of that end of the layout in the bare plaster and even bare benchwork stage.

Then I thought how many of the more famous layouts I've visited looked so impressive in the magazines and when I went on a layout tour at a convention and saw them in person, they were generally much more humble and incomplete than it appeared in the slick hobby press.

And looks is only part of the equation. There's also the operational side, and for that to work flawlessly, you need to have a mechanical bent and be willing to spend time on maintenance -- finding and fixing trackwork and equipment bugs (true some of this can be 'preventitive' where you head off any maintenance issues by not getting in a big hurry and building it right the first time.)

It's all part of setting your expecations realistically. Unfortunately, this is seldom discussed in the hobby press. Makes me wonder how many people have left the hobby because they had unrealistic expectations? Or in this thread, how many were bummed by the cost of a convention and say they'll never go to another simply because the slick hobby press contributed to making their expectations too unrealistic?

Going to your first national convention can mean you'll discover most layouts are much more humble undertakings than the impression generally given in the hobby press.

But hey, impressive beauty shots sell magazines. Shots of bare benchwork plywood pacifics don't. [swg]

[Walter Clot]

Lots of good thoughts everyone.
Jfugate your suggestions were good and practical.
I haven't been on any tours, but the few times I've been able to see someone else's layout in person, I've always enjoyed it. I like seeing what they've done and what they plan to do. Most layouts both inspire me (to do more and better) and encourage me, where I feel that I've achieved some degree of operation or construction achievement.

[Bob Hayes]

Getting back to the original subject, my first national convention was 1963 in Indy. Drove there from L.A. with my friend Bob Smith. Had a hotel reservation, but didn't arrive until after 6pm, and the hotel cancelled it. BUT, they did have a vacancy on the 2nd floor next to the contest room! Don't remember much about the convention though. There was a train trip from the hotel(the station was either next door or connected, don't remember)to a re-constructed version of the General at some out of the way location, and there was a shop tour, some layout tours, and a very hot banquet, all included with the price. After the convention we were invited to Dayton to see some other layouts, but I don't remember who's. My last full convention was in 1985, NMRA's 50th. Great convention, especially the way the layout tours were organized. The police shut down the intersections near the convention center, and all the buses left at the same time. What a show. Seems to me everything was included in the price; no extra fare items. Once again, the convention hotel messed up. The people who had my room hadn't checked out when I arrived with my confirmed reservation(because of the Oshkosh show the previous week). So I ended up with part of a suite(and a roll-away bed) on the corner of the hotel with a view of the convention center, and the main drag towards the lake(I think). For 6 nights, I paid $125, AND got all the free drink tickets I wanted. Saturday night after the banquet, I was "buying" rounds.

But since then, the cost of conventions and all the extra fare costs for the things I think are a big part of a convention(layout tours) have gotten so out of hand that I just go to the train show, and visit the local hobby shops. That's what I did for San Jose & Seattle. I did pay $75 for the National Narrow Gauge Convention in Santa Clara a couple of years ago that included self guided layout tours, clinics, and train show. So, why can't the NMRA do the same thing??? I'm also looking forward to the PNR convention in August for $99, which includes layout tours, clinics, banquet, contest room(what did I leave out, Joe?), and a convention hotel where a single is $69 and includes breakfast! Once again I ask: Why can't the NMRA do that?

Another thing that grips me, is having 2 national conventions 600 miles apart, 2 years in a row. There's no way the average West Coast person is going to go to both, let alone either one. I think the conventions should be spread out farther across the country each year.

Off my box.

Bob Hayes
Chiloquin, OR

[simon1966]

Bob, I think some of what you are asking for is impossible. The National Trains Show is clearly a huge event and requires a large convention center to be able to hold it. The space required for the NTS most likely limits the entire NMRA event to good sized cities. The convention hotels associated with the larger convention centers are generally not inexpensive and as anyone that travels a lot knows, downtown 3 and 4 star hotels almost always do not include breakfast. I attend at least half a dozen major medical conventions a year and have exibited in most of the convetion halls that the NTS and NMRA have been or are going to. I have found that if you are willing to walk or take a cab you can get rooms for much less money (many with breakfast) close enough to the convention centers. Try Priceline.com and you would be amazed at what can be done. The bottom line is that the cost of renting these huge spaces is astronomical. Compared to a medical convention the price of the NMRA is very low. I suspect that the NMRA barely breaks even on the convention part and makes it all up with the NTS. I don't know what the exhibitors pay at the NTS, but an 8'x10' space at the type of shows I exhibit at costs in the $3-5K range.

[twcenterprises]

I was an exhibitor at the '95 Atlanta show (actually, I was one of the group who built the "Atlanta Central", the give-away layout at the end of the show), and I was also a tour guide on one of the layout tours. I did tour the layouts before the convention both to be able to give directions to the bus driver, and also so I could concentrate on "guiding" the group without being distracted by trying to see the layouts at the same time. As such, I did get to participate in a number of things free, but if I had to pay, I would have only done the National Train Show for about $10 or so. I had higher expectations of the layouts we toured, but all 4 were relatively complete. I did not fault any of the layouts or the owners, but did make positive comments as much as possible. I did ask questions, and made a couple suggestions, and one layout owner did provide refreshments during the tour, and at the end, the guests seemed satisfied with the tour.

All in all, the convention itself is really just out of my reach financially, but the NTS I could manage if I didn't have too much transportation and lodging cost.

Brad

[Bob Hayes]

Simon,

The 1977 & 1985 national conventions were in the city's convention centers. But the San Jose & Seattle conventions where held in the convention hotel, and the train show was in the convention center, which by the way were not near each other. And not staying at the convention hotel can be a big mistake. I went to the Denver convention in 1977, and stayed at a hotel that was on the north side of Denver. In order to go on layout tours, I had to be at the convention center(which was across the street from the convention hotel) at 8am to pick up tickets for that days tours. The drive from my hotel to the parking lot near the convention center was at least 1/2 hr. during non-commute times. So I didn't go on any layout tours that year. Didn't get to go on a tour of Coor's either because the bus driver wouldn't stop because of the strike at Coor's that year. And, the NMRA does make money on the national conventions, although it wasn't always that way. I don't know if all the profit is just from the train show, though. I'm a little cloudy on this, but I think the National organization has a convention committee that runs the conventions now, and the host city people set up the layout tours. Maybe someone from the NMRA can clarify this.

Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

Someone asked about what the NMRA is charging for booth space ... it's darn reasonable if you ask me. Model-trains-video.com (the company that distributes my how-to DVDs) paid something like $400 for an 8x10 booth with table, two chairs and electrical power at the National Train Show in Seattle in 2004.

I know from other venues what booth space at a National show can cost and these prices are quite reasonable.

I also know from having been on the National Convention Committee for the 1994 NMRA Convention in Portland Oregon that the goal of the conventions is to not go into the red, but to make a small profit if possible for the NMRA. Also, to make the conventions feel as worthwhile as possible, they deliberately load up the clinics, tours, and events so you can't possibly see it all -- you *have* to pick and choose. If you think about it, that only makes sense. Otherwise you pay all this money and then you sit around because there's nothing for you to do if they didn't load it up with options.

Personally, I've really enjoyed any National Convention I've attended. The discussions and interactions with other modelers has been great, and I come back from one so totally jazzed about the hobby I can go for months on the energy generated. The resulting motivation to get something accomplished on my layout is hard to generate and worth a lot to me. I try to attend the ones that get to the west coast every few years.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes
I'm also looking forward to the PNR convention in August for $99, which includes layout tours, clinics, banquet, contest room(what did I leave out, Joe?), and a convention hotel where a single is $69 and includes breakfast! Once again I ask: Why can't the NMRA do that?

Bob Hayes
Chiloquin, OR

Bob:

That's essentially correct, although as the convention gets closer, prices are going up so the early commers got the great deal.

I'm on the convention committee for this year's PNR Regional Convention since it is almost within walking distance of my house. The goal from day one was to keep this convention affordable, so it is possible to do a convention "on the cheap" but it takes some work. You don't want to get too carried away with any extra things. There are no bus tours -- everything will be "here's the map -- see you there ..." [swg]

For more, see http://pnr2006.com ...

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes

Simon,

And not staying at the convention hotel can be a big mistake.

Bob, I agree that there are huge benefits to staying in the convention hotel. You miss out on comraderie etc. But because of the downtown location of these hotels, by there very nature they are going to be expensive. Since cost and lack of an included breakfast was one of your comments against attending in a previous post. I was pointing out a way you could accompli***his without staying at the convention hotel.

I agree fully with what you are saying. I just think that it would be very hard for the NMRA to find a city that has the space and low cost accomodations. These things just don't seem to go together.

[Leon Silverman]

Staying at an off-site hotel maybe an option for someone who is only attending a meeting or convention but is not an exhibitor or officer of the organization. One option that might keep costs of future meetings down is scouting suburban locations or hotels near the airport. Unless you actually need the huge floor space of a convention center, there are many chain-name hotels with multiple room banquet facilities. In Philadelphia, for instance, twenty minutes outside of center city in almost any direction willo bring you to many of these hotels, not to mention the Airport, itself.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

I was just looking at the cost of the NMRA convention here in Philly in July.

$150 just to get in the door for the week?!? [:0]

And $50 for one-day only??? ([:0] again!)

Is this a bit on the expensive side, or am I completely out of it?

50 bucks a head for one day's admission? *** these guys better give me a huge swig of whatever they been drinkin'. They'er better be some seriously good free loot like uhhh use of two supermodels or NFL cheerleaders if I'm gonna part with 50 bucks for a train show.

[Anonymous]

Just way and go to the train show part thats open to the public on Fri, Sat and Sun. Its costs about $15.00 to get in and you get to see the same things just no open houses or clinics.

[Anonymous]

I guess I'm one of the few who think $150 for the week really isn't out-of-line especially when you consider that this event is being held at the Philadelphia Convention Center. The PCC is NOT a cheap venue.

Considering conventions and conferences for musicians and worship leaders easily exceed $300 for three days. For example, The National Guitar Workshop costs $950 for the week and this does not include registration, lodging and other required expenses.

The real question is: Will NMRA put on a program that will be worth $150??

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Gumby4

I guess I'm one of the few who think $150 for the week really isn't out-of-line especially when you consider that this event is being held at the Philadelphia Convention Center. The PCC is NOT a cheap venue.

I guess I'm with you, Gumby. I see many Computer - Techie conventions where the price to just get in the door is $900 and up, so $150 for the week is bargain basement pricing.

[MisterBeasley]

So, how many people go to these things? Are they all there at once? I'm wondering if using elaborate venues like this are worth the expense. For these big techie conferences, most of the participants are probably there at corporate expense. Not too many NMRA types will be.

If I can go to a train show for $8 with free parking, it's hard to understand why the NMRA can't find a less expensive venue so its members could save their hard-earned money to spend on trains.

Maybe somebody from the NMRA can chime in with a balance sheet? Are we missing something here?

[rayw46]

Loathar, the convention you are speaking of is the Southeastern Region of the NMRA. I attended the one in Birmingham a couple of years ago and throughly enjoyed it. There's a different feel to the regional conventions because they're smaller, the clinics are generally still of a high quality, the banquet seems more personal and we had a great train show and sale. Attendees were invited to bring unwanted equipment to sell at an auction after the banquet. I'm not going to be able to attend the convention in Memphis due to prior obligations, but I definetly plan on attending in 2007 when the convention will be in Cartersville, Georgia, north of Atlanta. It will be sponsoned by the Piedmont Division and its going to be a great one.

[simon1966]

I think some of you are not clear on what is going on. There are 2 annual events that take place together. The NMRA convention and the National Train Show. The NMRA convention runs July 2nd to 9th and includes clinics, tours etc. It is the convention that requires the $150 registration fee. The National Train show always runs in concert with the NMRA Convention. It cost $15 to get in and this year runs from the 7th to the 9th. If you are a registered attendee of the NMRA convention your registration cover the NTS and you get to attend the National Train Show in the AM of the 7th, before the general public is admited. Here is the link which tells you all about the workshops etc. http://www.ij2006.org/ Now I have not attended the NMRA convention, but was able to get to the NTS in Cincy last year and can say without doubt it is the best train show I have ever been to. There are tons of vendors, many quite aggressive on pricing as there is so much competition. But best of all, are all the manufacturers booths. You get to see all the new products and speak directly to the manufacturers. This is not your ordinary run of the mill train show.

The NTS sheer size determines the type of venue/city that can host it. When it was in St. Louis, it filled the Rams football stadium. The NMRA seems to go for mid market 2nd teer cities, which would keep the price down somewhat. At least they seem to avoid the really expensive convention cities like NYC and San Fran.

[rayw46]

Hey folks, bare plywood and unweathered rolling stock on a layout are not , "faults." In most cases it is just that the bulider has simply reached that point in building his or her layout; or it could be a result of time and money issues; or it may be that the builder is more interested in operation that estectics.

[Anonymous]

Good discussion all around.

I realize that people have varying budgets and perceptions. But those of you who have never been behind the scenes in planning a meeting or convention often do not realize how much it costs to put one on. The real money for a not-for-profit meeting such as this one, is being made by the venue, not the NMRA. Having been involved (although not my main job) over the years in planning and budgeting a number of business conventions large and small, you folks should know that the NMRA (with which, to be clear, I have no affiliation) will write a very substantial check to the venue. $150 for a convention of this length is a real bargain in my view. Although the $50 day rate is a bit steep for a hobby-oriented show, it is good business practice to price the day rates high enough so that people don't have an incentive to do a lot of cherry-picking, and I have no problem with that.

Let's face it, unless you live in the Philadelphia area, your transportation, lodging and meals costs will be several multiples of the convention fee. And it is those expenses that have so far prevented me from justifying attendance. Once the kids are out of college ...

On a separate topic, great comments about layout tours. I've had the good fortune to visit a number of layouts. My very first take-away was, wow, in terms of progress and appearance, my own layout ain't that bad after all! Second, I've never yet seen a "flawless" priavte layout in terms of operation. Excellent ops, yes; flawless, no - another real encouragement in terms of the operating qualities of my own layout. I often read claims of "flawless" operation, so maybe they do exist - or maybe they have a different definition of "flawless". I've seen two flawless public layouts but they have no elevation changes and no working turnouts, and also no doubt involve a lot of behind-the-scenes and after-hours maintenance to keep them "flawless".

But thirdly and perhaps most important, I've always come away with at least one good idea.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayw46

Hey folks, bare plywood and unweathered rolling stock on a layout are not , "faults." In most cases it is just that the bulider has simply reached that point in building his or her layout; or it could be a result of time and money issues; or it may be that the builder is more interested in operation that estectics.

Ray:

I agree with you, and I am somewhat saddened by the fact that our hobby market has fallen into the "glitz sells" mindset. I really enjoyed the days in the 1960s when MR would put bare benchwork on the magazine cover and not think twice about it. And trackside photos often had one or two incomplete layout photos in it.

My point is that it's too bad that people who sign up for layout tours at the National conventions get their expectations set too high if all they have ever seen is layouts in the hobby magazines. IMO, every layout article ought to have at least one or two overall room shots or a shot or two of the "still under construction" part of the layout to better educate people that fine looking layouts don't happen overnight and that most have at least some parts that are still incomplete.

I know when I go on the Layout Design Special Interest Group tours at the national, I'm looking forward to seeing incomplete layouts, and so are many of the ones who sign up for these tours. The LDSIG deliberately tries to get the most innovative layouts on the tour, and having had my layout be the object of one of those tours, I can tell you the crowd that takes these tours loves to look under the layout at the benchwork and take out the measuring tape to see how high your benchwork is, how wide your aisles are, etc. [swg]

[cuyama]

You guys who are complaining about the cost of the NMRA national convention should be glad you're not into other pastimes. The computer gaming national convention here in San Jose was $500-725 (no, I didn't attend, but a friend did). And a quick Google search shows that the dollhouse (NAME) convention is $195 and the American Sewing Guild Convention costs $385 to $555.

Of course it is cheaper to be a square dancer ($50 per person) or Hot Wheels Collector ($60), in terms of national conventions. And you do get a collector hot wheels toy car with that registration ... so maybe that's just the thing for you skinflints. Now Allemand Left and help me find my Splittin' Image.

Regards,

Byron

[Bob Hayes]

Simon,

My comment about the hotel and breakfast was only meant for comparison sake, not that breakfast was a requirement for staying at a hotel. Here is a Holiday Inn(PNR Convention) charging $69 for a single, while a national convention hotel is charging $95 & up.

Byron,

Just because we don't wi***o throw our money away on hotel rooms doesn't make as "skinflints". What do you charge for a track plan? If we spend an extra $150 on a hotel room for 5 nights, we just have $150 less to spend on your track plan!

Bob Hayes

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob Hayes
Just because we don't wi***o throw our money away on hotel rooms doesn't make as "skinflints".

Sorry, I must not have been clear. I was not talking about hotel rooms, since cheap rooms and expensive rooms are usually found within a reasonable drive of all conventions. I was referring to the topic of this thread, complaints about the price of the convention itself compared to other hobby conventions.

I'm not saying everyone should go to conventions -- just like people don't have to attend the National Quilters Quorum, the Philatelists Fandango, the Cloggers Conclave, teh American Sand Painting Soiree, or any other such national event (real or imagined) to enjoy their respective hobbies. I was only trying to point out that the NMRA Conventions does not seem to be priced out of line with similar events in other hobbies.

Sorry to offend.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama

I was referring to the topic of this thread, complaints about the price of the convention itself compared to other hobby conventions.

That's not even the topic of the thread.

The topic of this thread is my surprise at the convention registration costs. It isn't the registration costs in comparison to other conventions' cost, and it also isn't a complaint (unless every time someone is surprised by something they're complaining?). I didn't even say it wasn't justified - I don't have the books, so I can't really say. A few posts have brought in the costs of some other conventions, but that's just part of the ensuing discussion.

I figured the registration cost would be somewhere around half of what it is, so I was surprised. I wonder how many people (local to Philly or not) cannot attend because the cost is so high just to walk in the door?

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
[Is this a bit on the expensive side, or am I completely out of it?

Brunton, I was attempting to answer the first part of the above question that you posed in the first posting.

Based on my posting, no, it's not expensive when you compare it to similar hobby conventions.

Sorry if I misunderstood your question.

As to the second part of the question, I have no data. [:)]

And of course, as other have pointed out, if the cost of the convention itself is out of the budget, folks who live nearby can attend only the train show for a lot less. Personally, I don't budget hobby money to attend every year, but I've been to a national three times and enjoyed each one a lot.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TA462

I think $150 to enjoy your hobby, learn more and meet new people that have the same hobby as you for a week is very reasonable. It sounds like a lot of money but when you consider it runs over 8 days and if you actually attend the clinics and go on the tours everyday then it is only $18.75 a day.

I know there are free clinics, but are there any free tours? Most of the layout tours start and $40 and go up from there. I didn't look at cost for the prototype tours. Still, if I had the money and a free week I'd probably attend, bein' as how I live right across the Delaware Ocean in Jersey.

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama

And of course, as other have pointed out, if the cost of the convention itself is out of the budget, folks who live nearby can attend only the train show for a lot less.

That's what I'm planning to do. I even played with idea of registering for the convention on Friday in order to get in to the show in the morning, but the one-day cost made the pre-public time not quite worth it.

[jfugate]

I know couples where the wife has a casual (or more semi-serious like my wife) interest in the hobby, and they will sandwich the convention into the middle of a vacation.

Once you've been to a few of these conventions like I have, they become a great place to renew acquaintances with people who share your passion for the hobby.

Many of these folks travel with RVs, so the housing and food costs are the same as any other vacation ... and the cost for the convention and some tours is no more than you might pay as a tourist for other bussed tours.

So it all depends on your perspective, which is what I believe Byron is saying, and I agree with him. No one is forcing anyone to go, and yet these things are pretty well attended. So the prices can't be too far out of line for those who want to spend hobby money on social events.

If interacting with the *people* in the hobby is an important factor to you, then you can't beat a national convention for providing the opportunity. But if you'd rather hang out in the basement with just you and your trains -- save your money and only go to the train show. That's a perfectly good strategy too, if you're not the social type. [swg]

[SilverSpike]

QUOTE: Posted by Joe Fugate
My point is that it's too bad that people who sign up for layout tours at the National conventions get their expectations set too high if all they have ever seen is layouts in the hobby magazines. IMO, every layout article ought to have at least one or two overall room shots or a shot or two of the "still under construction" part of the layout to better educate people that fine looking layouts don't happen overnight and that most have at least some parts that are still incomplete.

I know when I go on the Layout Design Special Interest Group tours at the national, I'm looking forward to seeing incomplete layouts, and so are many of the ones who sign up for these tours. The LDSIG deliberately tries to get the most innovative layouts on the tour, and having had my layout be the object of one of those tours, I can tell you the crowd that takes these tours loves to look under the layout at the benchwork and take out the measuring tape to see how high your benchwork is, how wide your aisles are, etc.

I am so glad you said that! Almost every article feature on a layout in the modeling magazines leaves me wanting to know more. Such as, what type of benchwork was utilized, electrical and wiring, bench height, width, etc. I would love to see some more of the "behind the scenes" stuff to get a better idea of how the modeler actually built the layout. The operations and detailing aspect is important, but the magazines could spend twice as much space on the same layout feature and go into more detail about how it was actually built.

Thanks again Joe, you always hit it right on the mark!

[Anonymous]

At first I was very excited about maybe attending my first convention. I've been in aviation all my life but ALWAYS have been an armchair MRR. For almost 35 years I've dreamt of someday building a nice size dream layout. Well taht dream is about to come true. The 14 x 28 room is almost done. Unfortuantely my son will be leaving home for college in a year. My big regret I did not start this sooner for him. Tears me up. But when he comes home it will be there for him. However , I had considered maybe taking him and I and possibly my wife and daughter to the convention in PHL. The girls could go shop and hang out while we attended stuff and went on tours. Or they could tag along. But when I seen tour prices were 4-70$ I couldn't belieive it. Is that per person?? I could not afford to drop 100-200$ a tour. Is there any way a family could attend this affordably and have a good time? I assume you could alos eat out on your own instead of paying for the banquet meals or is that a big function at the convention? Kinda disappointed !! Seems liie this is not really cost minded for family entertainment. Looked like fun.