The price of HO locomotives / just venting .

[jecorbett]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

So here is what you do......to keep your health in top shape, and to get some free money to buy a real nice loco of your desire, start walking down country roads and picking up soda bottles, beer cans and bottles, etc. and turn them in to the nearest redemption center. In no time you will have earned enough money, and you will be healthier for all that walking....and, you will be keeping America clean !!! LOL

I got a chuckle out of this because like you, I can remember when soft drinks, milk, and beer was sold in returnable glass bottles, for which consumers paid a deposit when they bought these items and got the deposit refunded when they returned the items to the store. We used to gather up discarded soda bottles and redeem them at the corner store for 2 cents apiece.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

There are O gauge locos for over 1K. Be thankful you are in HO/N (I'm in O and am broke)[:D]

Maybe you are but I ain't.

[jecorbett]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

QUOTE: Originally posted by emdgp92

I find it amusing that people remember what things cost years ago....but somehow forget that salaries were a lot less then. Not trying to slam anyone, just something to consider.

What I find amusing is people seem to forget about the abundance of high paying Union jobs back in those days coupled with low rent /house payments and lower cost of living..Car payment wasn't $350.00 a month either.
Of course you never hear that side of the story because those facts doesn't figure in when they try to justify todays high cost of the hobby compared to those days. ..[;)]

In terms of inflation adjusted dollars, I find that this hobby is actually much cheaper than it was several decades ago. When I got back into the hobby in the late 1970s, most of my locos and rolling stock were Athearn BB. Had the price of these kept pace with inflation, I estimate they would cost twice as much as what they are actually selling for now. In the earlier 1980s, I began collecting Rivarossi steam locos and they sold for about the same price as they did at the time Rivarossi went belly up. In terms of real dollars, they were selling for half to one third as much as they did back in the 1980s. Not only is the hobby cheaper today, the quality is much better. We are getting much more bang for our bucks.

[spidge]

Sorry guys but salaries have not kept up with the cost to living( realy live ). There are many poles and research firms that confirm this.
I do agree that you get what you pay for. If you pay full price or retail you also pay for some of the development of new and improved products.
I have a couple atlas engines that look like they were built in the early '70's and they run so so, but the new of course run awesome. Time and experience from the manufacturers seems to have made an impression. They have noticed that a small pecentage of people realy scratchbuild so they now know to produce different items as time goes on. Meaning more selection.
It would be nice to see a more freindly design in N scale but its so small.
Also all this plastic is petrolium($$$) based is it not? Not only does the cost to produce go up but getting it to the end user is often very expensive.
There ar eso many ways to cause pricing to go up we could be here all day.

Just a tidbit I heard today; Did you know every year after winter the US mandates ethinal be added to gasoline to make it run cleaner, and that we(US) cannot produce enough to satisfy the demand. So we have to import it at an additional cost of $.52 per gallon imported? What are we doing? Someone is protecting an industry out there and it hurts everyone[xx(]

I know, get out there and register to vote and put someone in the government that will do the right thing!!!!!

Thanks for the venting. I needed more air to heat at throw in here.

[grayfox1119]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emdgp92

I find it amusing that people remember what things cost years ago....but somehow forget that salaries were a lot less then. Not trying to slam anyone, just something to consider.

You are so right, I just realized that after reading your reply. I was making $.65 and hour after school on my 1st job at a grocery stroe, and after Junior College, my 1st job paid $1.77 an hour.......lots of OT though.

[Medina1128]

I just put things into perspective. When I was in high school, my parents bought a brand new house. That house cost less than a Mustang does now... [:(]

[THayman]

It's true that sometimes you pay for the extras, sometimes you have no choice. The new ES44DC's will not be available for less than $200-300 for several years- for the quality of the Tower 55 loco however, I'm more than willing to pay.

[tatans]

I think one of the major problems with prices is the purchaser, if you very occaisionally buy the odd boxcar etc. over a year period and save up for a year or two and buy an engine, what is the problem? remember, there are guys on this forum that spend 1/2 a day every month buying "stuff" for the layout and think nothing of it, there are also many guys who buy brass engines as if they were toothpaste and never bat an eye then ferret them away in boxes never to be seen again(figure that one out?) So unless you fit into this category don't worry about it, of course these engines cost a few bucks, but just DON'T buy one every month, like the rest of us.

[RMax1]

There are those of us that do think the prices are too high and have stopped buying except on rare occassion. I have bought a total of 2 loco sets in the last 2 years. 2 Proto E8 A/B sets. One had sound and the other did not. Total cost just under $400. I'd call it 3 and 1/2 loco's for $400 because one was a dummy. To me that is a lot of money for loco's. I know I know there are people out there buying brass this and that. Well good for them. and there are people pouring their paychecks into buying huge fleets for a 4X8 layout that's nice too. Brass guys could care less about plastic because they are buying brass! Fleet freaks would buy if you made the cost 10 times what it is now. It is the casual hobbiest that is hurt. They buy 5 or 6 loco's a year and a number of cars. So I can't blame the manufactures for catering to the fleet freaks. If you have some one willing to throw money at you no matter what you ask???? For the average small guy just shop wisely and let the Brass and fleet guys knock them selves out.

RMax1

[Anonymous]

I just pre-ordered an P2K WP GP20 with QSI DCC/Sound for $175.00 including USA shipping from www.firsthobby.com. It is detailed as delivered in silver & orange, including the large Pyle National Headlights. The DC version is $112.00 including
USA shipping. I also recently purchased an Athearn GP35 including adding a Digitrax DCC Decoder for less than $85.00. Both of these units have enhanced detail compaired to the Westside Steam Locomotives I purchased several years ago.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Foster

"Venting" in the land of origin of English can mean letting air into or out of a room or building...

David, I'm aware of the proper English meaning of the word, thanks. It was the current American usage that had me puzzled.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve

Venting is just like a safety valve on a steam engine as it approaches the summit under a great load. It is one thing that keeps everything together. Or BOOM.

Eh? What are you on about?

[simon1966]

We can go round and round presenting points about the relative cost of living, salaries and the cost of a loco from years gone by. But as has been discussed many times before there has been a marked upward shift in the average cost of a locomotive in the last 5 years and IMO this has been even more marked in the last 12 months.

Think back to pre BLI and the introduction of sound. What were we buying then? Athearn BB, Atlas Classic, Stewart, LifeLike P2K and P1K etc. What were we paying for these locos? Less than $100 and in many cases less than $50 from the on-line discounters and the train show crowd. Most of the models were in plentiful supply. I am only talking 3 to 5 years ago folks.

Now look at today. I would suggest that the average MSRP of a new loco is close to $200. Even non-sound equipped locos are selling in the mid $100 range.

Yes. You can still get low priced older run locos from the heavy discounters like Trainworld.

Yes. New locos have sound, DCC , more detail, better running characteristics etc.

Yes. Production runs seem to be more limited enabling locos to sell at closer to MSRP.

This is all true. But the bottom line for many, and therefore the reason why this thread topic comes up over and over again. Is that it is increasingly hard to fill out a loco roster with what you want at a reasonable price. IMO this change is relatively recent, which is why it generates such feeling. The demand for DCC and sound, the consolidation and takeover of Athearn, LifeLike and others and the apparent decision by manufacturers to go for increasingly limited runs (no matter what Atlas calls this) has exacerbated the problem.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

But the bottom line for many, and therefore the reason why this thread topic comes up over and over again. Is that it is increasingly hard to fill out a loco roster with what you want at a reasonable price.

That's an entirely subjective opinion, Simon. In the last few years I've had no trouble building a roster for my US layout projects at what I consider reasonable prices, and I can assure you, my tastes run from uncommon to downright obscure.

That's what makes this topic so contentious - what you or I consider a reasonable price is subjective, and is always likely to differ. With the best will in the world, I get the impression that some posters want all the bells and whistles, but they aren't all that willing to pay for them.

Another thought that often occurs to me is that many modellers buy far more locomotives than they could ever realistically use on their layouts, and this is the reason why they quibble about prices. I'd rather have a small roster of the best quality locos I can afford, detailed and weathered to represent specific prototypes, rather than hundreds of undistinguished Athearn BBs. But again, that is merely my choice...

All the best,

Mark.

[simon1966]

Mark, agreed it is a subjective opinion, but the point I was making is that the MSRP of some of the key players, specifically P2k has shot up in the last 12-16 months. So a good mid range new release model (i'm not talking older stock being liquidated by Trainworld here) costs a whole lot more than it did 3 years ago. This is the issue that I feel causes this subject to come up over and over again.

[cmarchan]

Many of you agree the price of locomotives primarily in HO scale is high. I have somethings for you to ponder:

1. What do you think is a reasonable price for a locomotive?
2. How would the manufacturer be able to make a reasonable profit selling this unit while maintaining a QUALITY LEVEL everyone could live with?
3. Would you be willing to sacrifice quality, detail, paint accuracy, etc to lower the price?
4. Will you be willing to accept occasional problems with QC and not ostracize or harrass the manufacturer?
5. How many locos would you purchase if most of them were in the $30.00 to $50.00 range?
6. Do you currently buy Bachmann, Life Like (NOT Proto 1k or 2K), IHC, used Tyco, AHM?

Carl

[CNJ831]

Mark, as an outsider to the way American hobbyists have conducted their purchases for decades, you can not possibly appreciate the dramatic changes that have occurred for us. Ever since the 1950's it was typical of American hobbyists to purchase new items on a whim, to impulse buy when at the LHS...it was an expected part of the hobby and part of the then affordable fun. This is why so many of us indeed have 50, 75, or 100 locomotives, as well as rolling stock beyond what our layouts can handle.

Likewise, often when some ktbashing article would appear in the pages of MR, RMC, or elsewhere, many hobbyists would tackle the job immediately, whether they needed the car/loco, whatever, or not. Cutting up and modifying an inexpensive car or engine was always considered an enjoyable and expected part of the full hobby of model railroading.

Now a great many of us, especially those long in the hobby, are progressively forced into being very careful about how we spend our limited disposable income. The idea of buying anything we want, when we want, save for a small faction of well-to-do hobbyists, is largely in the past. Few modelers over here are so desirous to be prototypical that they want only to buy "a few of the best quality locomotives that will fill out a limited prototype roster". In fact, the majority don't follow strict prototypical guidelines to begin with!

The recent pricing/limited run alterations in the hobby are very disturbing to a great many but perhaps not to newbies who know no better. I have more than a few friends that have totally ceased to purchase new items because of rising prices and now work completely with kits, scratchbuilding materials, etc. already in their possession. Ours is a limited-interest hobby and to start eliminating participants in a major fashion from it at this time, when it is already in slow decline, is a very serious matter for all.

CNJ831

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Mark, agreed it is a subjective opinion, but the point I was making is that the MSRP of some of the key players, specifically P2k has shot up in the last 12-16 months....This is the issue that I feel causes this subject to come up over and over again.

OK, I can see why it's a controversial topic. It's interesting that the prices of P2K models here in Australia haven't greatly changed over the past few years - I didn't realise there had been such a great price increase in the US. I wonder why that is?

Cheers,

Mark.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmarchan

Many of you agree the price of locomotives primarily in HO scale is high. I have somethings for you to ponder:

1. What do you think is a reasonable price for a locomotive?
2. How would the manufacturer be able to make a reasonable profit selling this unit while maintaining a QUALITY LEVEL everyone could live with?
3. Would you be willing to sacrifice quality, detail, paint accuracy, etc to lower the price?
4. Will you be willing to accept occasional problems with QC and not ostracize or harrass the manufacturer?
5. How many locos would you purchase if most of them were in the $30.00 to $50.00 range?
6. Do you currently buy Bachmann, Life Like (NOT Proto 1k or 2K), IHC, used Tyco, AHM?

Carl

And this my friends is the nub of the issue. Better quality, better details, more electronic features, better lighting, better sound all cost more.

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

I'd rather have a small roster of the best quality locos I can afford

and this is the effect.

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Ever since the 1950's it was typical of American hobbyists to purchase new items on a whim, to impulse buy when at the LHS...it was an expected part of the hobby and part of the then affordable fun. This is why so many of us indeed have 50, 75, or 100 locomotives, as well as rolling stock beyond what our layouts can handle.

Bottom line is that we have been spoiled in the US. Perhaps we are now facing a more realistic pricing structure. I for one am very happy that I fleshed out my roster when I did, because I for one have significantly limited the number of locos that I purchase. 2 in the last 18 months. So in effect I am doing what Mark suggests and only getting the best items that meet my need. The on a whim purchase at a train show or hobby shop has stopped for me.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Mark, as an outsider to the way American hobbyists have conducted their purchases for decades, you can not possibly appreciate the dramatic changes that have occurred for us.

You're right, CNJ, I can't.

Your post is an interesting one, and there are many points you raise that are worth discussing, but I've just had the roster clerk ring me and offer me some overtime, so I'll take this up with you when I get back from work later today.

All the best,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

It's my opinion that it is possible to own a reasonable number of locomotives that are fairly accurate and run decently on a modest budget.

It's only when someone wants a highly accurate locomotive with an exceptional drive mechanism, DCC and sound that the prices get rediculous. Well why not? You can go out and buy a Ford Fusion for about $20K but if you want a GT40 you will probably have to shell out $250K and it only stickers for $125K.

It's supply and demand. Low supply added to high demand = high prices.

I don't think any of the model railroad manufacturers are becoming billionaires off the profits made from their products. In fact most are probably barely making enough to see the value of continuing to make new product.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Mark, agreed it is a subjective opinion, but the point I was making is that the MSRP of some of the key players, specifically P2k has shot up in the last 12-16 months....This is the issue that I feel causes this subject to come up over and over again.

OK, I can see why it's a controversial topic. It's interesting that the prices of P2K models here in Australia haven't greatly changed over the past few years - I didn't realise there had been such a great price increase in the US. I wonder why that is?

Cheers,

Mark.

Mark, I think it is generally accepted that LifeLike really messed up and flooded the market with too many models. IMO, when they came out with P2K several years ago, they really shifted the market by introducing a far better quality model with higher detail level than the norm of the day. But, too much of a good thing led to situations like P2K E7 loco's selling for $37.00 at train shows. Many P2K models were being dumped and you can still find some of these highly discounted models at trainworld and other liquidators. Perhaps too late, they significantly increased the MSRP of the models about 18 months ago. Apparently also reducing the production runs. Soon after this they sold the MRR business to Walthers, who continue the new pricing structure.

Now if you consider that there was another trend going on. Broadway limited hit the market and introduced more bells an whistles (literally). BLI revolutionised the business and proved beyond a doubt that modellers would pay way over $100 to get a sound loco.

Now the MSRP of a new sound equipped loco is over $200. We all know that the electronics and speaker have very little cost to manufacture, so there is little manufacturing cost difference to make a loco with or without DCC/sound. As a result, the DC variants have MSRP not so very far behind the sound locos anymore.

I am not saying that any of this is wrong, in fact I would say that the market has spoken and very loudly proclaimed that it is willing to pay a lot more for these locomotives.

These are simply my observations on what has been going on over the last year or so, which IMO leads to the regular re-hash of this subject on the forum.

[cmarchan]

Simon1966,

I agree with your comments. The pricing is based on what the market as a whole will bear. I also believe that there are more modelers today aware of the details of the prototype as there are more books, more historical societies, and the Internet contributing to that education. There was a time when we were happy with the (for example) Athearn BB unit with the wider body, fantasy paint schemes and louder electric motors. Collectors aside, the brass market proved albeit in smaller numbers, that models that more resembled actual prototypes were in demand ( they looked better than they ran).
The detail parts industry shows modelers enjoy having air hoses, ladder grabs irons, horns used by the prototype, etc.

Today many modelers lack the time to detail every model they purchase. Many modelers also want a loco than runs well out of the box, with little or no tweaking. Today's plastic models and non-brass models are great asthetically and mechanically.
Unfortunately, the cost of manufacturing is high and many of the facilities that produce these models (subcontracted by Atlas, Life-Like/Walthers, Athearn,etc) also produce brass museum quality models. They will not (and probably cant afford to) manufacture a product at a cost that would make the price more attractable. I beleve those subcontractors are used because of their reputations. Remember Kato made units for Atlas; people expressed concern about those prices over ten years ago. If the percentage of sales were close to the numbers of say, an Ipod or a Playstation, the results would be different.

Carl

[Anonymous]

Once again, CNJ831, you are a beacon in the fog on this subject, and cut through to the heart of the matter.

I have more than a few friends that have totally ceased to purchase new items because of rising prices and now work completely with kits, scratchbuilding materials, etc. already in their possession. Ours is a limited-interest hobby and to start eliminating participants in a major fashion from it at this time, when it is already in slow decline, is a very serious matter for all.

I've bought less than a dozen kits so far this year - I used to buy that many in a single afternoon's trip to the LHS. I'm simply being priced out of the hobby, and I'm not alone.

All I can add to your post is a big [#ditto]