Revelation: Operating on a 4 x 8 layout--choose alternate route

[mondotrains]

Hi Chip,
I know exactly what you mean about 4 x 8 layouts. However, because many of us grew up having a 4 x 8 layout, that's where we think we should begin when we get older and begin again.

When I got "downsized" from my company at the ripe old age of 46, I got back into model railroading because I obviously had a lot of time on my hands. I told my wife that "I would build a 4 x 8 layout, scenic it, and then give it to some deserving child who would appreciate it. After about 9 months, I realized I was really into the hobby and needed to expand. I dismantled the 4 x 8 and built a layout using a plan in one of those track plan books. It was a bent dogbone design and again had a lot of limiatations.

I expanded on it.....added a stub-ended yard, some "staging" tracks (once I had read and learned about staging) and finally got a decent layout going. However, one day, my buddy and I looked at each other and wondered if I should fini***his layout, with all its deficiencies or start over. You see, I always wanted a double-ended railroad yard; a double-track mainline; a turntable in the yard, rather than a "wye" for turning engines, etc.
And, my benchwork was too low so watching trains was from above, rather than eye-level. Also, the trains ran around and around, going through the same scene more than once. I wanted to create a more realistic railroad where trains came from staging and only went through a scene once.

And like you've mentioned about your layout, I had put all the block control and turnout switches on a single panel, using those Atlas switch-buttons and 2-position block controllers. So, operating the layout was a pain and only two cabs were supported. I had to place a diagram of the whole track plan on the wall, with numbers positionally listed on it corresponding to the numbers on my panel, to be able to decipher which buttons to push.

All I can say is that the decision to start over is always a difficult one but I don't want you to think the time you've spent thus far on your layout has been a waste of time. All the learning I accomplished on my first layout has been invaluable. I was able to sell all my Atlas turnouts on Ebay, for almost what I had paid years earlier and upgrade to Walther's Shinohara. I also upgraded to Tortoise switch machines and the experience I gained from wiring those Atlas switches paid off.

I especially had learned from my first layout, like you, that it's better to have control panels strategically located around the layout, so you can operate block controls and turnout toggle switches from where you are standing with your train. I use Aristocraft wireless walk-around throttles so there's no standing in one place with a stationary power pack.

To sum up....it is the experiences with our first layout that gets us to the next. You are correct though in telling guys that there is a better place to start than a 4 x 8 layout but wherever they start, they will discover deficiencies and inefficiencies that if they can't be corrected, they will start over and overcome them. I don't think anybody can build the "best" layout the first time unless they have some very experienced guys handy who can design it right the first time.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

[hminky]

Or if you didn't screw your 4x8 up bad enough and it came out well you can always incorporate the 4x8 into a larger layout.

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/trackplanning/image/track_plan_final_concept.bmp

Just a thought
Harold

[Train 284]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train 284

I like the track plan Randy!

This thread is linked to a resources for Newbees. Most beginners think in terms of a 4x8 layout and end up spending a lot of money on a dead end.

You guys are not helping. Here I am trying to point out the downsides of island type 4x8s and the post here are mostly encouraging these layout. In reality, they are not as efficient as a similar space consuming shelf layout.

Well sorry, geez! I just post I comment and then everyone gets all pissed off! All I said that was I liked the plan is that illegal or was I not informed of the new law?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by hminky

Or if you didn't screw your 4x8 up bad enough and it came out well you can always incorporate the 4x8 into a larger layout.

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/trackplanning/image/track_plan_final_concept.bmp

Just a thought
Harold

I actually took a couple sections of track out and added turnouts so you could both leave and arrive at the 4x8. But the track on the 4x8 is a mix of steel and NS EZ track, and Atlas Flex. The Bachman turonouts have been a PITA. Lately they have been not quite opening and causing derails.

The main thing is that my track was orginally going to be a Hogwarts layout with diagon Alley and Kings Cross Station. In fact, my Rock Ridge Station still says Kings Cross. When the daughter, the one who wanted a Hogwarts layout, decided to make it a 1890's layout (partly to be a receptical for buildings I need to build for my basement layout.) I have not maintained any historical integrity.

Anyway, the 4x8 is going on eBay.

[Anonymous]

A couple of these guys make good points about, possibly, the almost necessity of "learning" on a 4 x 8.

I had a couple as a kid, and know I don't need to go down that road again as I'm starting again as an adult.

But yes, there are things you learn on that 4 x 8 for sure, that are possibly just part of the growing process.

Chip - I'd like to throw this thought out there - I think you're in the process of designing your basement empire.

On the learning curve, you're way up from where you were before the 4 x 8, right? But you (like me) may not yet be like a Joe Fugate, David Barrow, (insert hobby-pro MRR'er name here). You might want to consider going for "layout #2" next, rather than "the basement empire". Just a totally unsolicited recommendation. (This is where I deserve to be told to go take a hike, near a cliff).

My next layout will be my first one as "an adult with the ability to do what I want to do", and I know I need to keep the size and complexity under control.

In short, if I had a huge area to work with, I think I'd still go with a moderate-sized layout. The "basement empire", if it ever happens, will likely be after much more experience, and after I know exactly what I'm doing.

Some food for thought - check out Bob Smaus' track plan (link below). Pretty simple, and this guy is a pro, and frankly does some of the best modeling I've ever seen in our favorite magazine.

His very first layout was a 3ft x 11ft shelf layout. This is his "#2 layout", I believe.

http://www.bobsgardenpath.com/MRmap.html

http://www.bobsgardenpath.com/trains_2.html

This layout goes to show even a "pro" could have a totaly killer layout, that is quite simplistic.

While I'm at it, have you seen Pelle Soeborg's layout featured in MR a bunch this year? That was his second layout also. It is quite "un-complex". His first was even simpler - featured, I believe, in 1998.

Chip, I love your enthusiasm for the hobby. Seriously man - thanks for all the insightful posts that get us all thinking / worked up / excited.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

A couple of these guys make good points about, possibly, the almost necessity of "learning" on a 4 x 8.

I had a couple as a kid, and know I don't need to go down that road again as I'm starting again as an adult.

But yes, there are things you learn on that 4 x 8 for sure, that are possibly just part of the growing process.

Chip - I'd like to throw this thought out there - I think you're in the process of designing your basement empire.

On the learning curve, you're way up from where you were before the 4 x 8, right? But you (like me) may not yet be like a Joe Fugate, David Barrow, (insert hobby-pro MRR'er name here). You might want to consider going for "layout #2" next, rather than "the basement empire". Just a totally unsolicited recommendation. (This is where I deserve to be told to go take a hike, near a cliff).

My next layout will be my first one as "an adult with the ability to do what I want to do", and I know I need to keep the size and complexity under control.

In short, if I had a huge area to work with, I think I'd still go with a moderate-sized layout. The "basement empire", if it ever happens, will likely be after much more experience, and after I know exactly what I'm doing.

Some food for thought - check out Bob Smaus' track plan (link below). Pretty simple, and this guy is a pro, and frankly does some of the best modeling I've ever seen in our favorite magazine.

His very first layout was a 3ft x 11ft shelf layout. This is his "#2 layout", I believe.

http://www.bobsgardenpath.com/MRmap.html

http://www.bobsgardenpath.com/trains_2.html

This layout goes to show even a "pro" could have a totaly killer layout, that is quite simplistic.

While I'm at it, have you seen Pelle Soeborg's layout featured in MR a bunch this year? That was his second layout also. It is quite "un-complex". His first was even simpler - featured, I believe, in 1998.

Chip, I love your enthusiasm for the hobby. Seriously man - thanks for all the insightful posts that get us all thinking / worked up / excited.

The basement layout has been delayed due to a financial set-back--sort of. Although I foresee the benchwork and and trackwork not starting on schedule, I have enough projects, like craftsman kits and kit-bashing engines to keep me busy for a year or two..

My plan was to build a 4 x 8 layout for my son to run while built a bigger layout. Well, I have 6 months into the 4x8 and I figure it is half done. I kinda sorta want to finish it. I know what need to be done and I figure 3 good months. But that cuts into basement remodel time. And I have nowhere to keep the 4x8, so finishing it will just be an educational experience and sense of completion--then eBay. A key piece is the mine I'm currently working on. Once that is done, I can start filling in the landscape and vegetation. That mine might take 2 months.

I plan to make the Redwood Empire as I am calling it to be operated by 6-8 people and have plenty of switching. But I was still apprehensive about committing to what I figure would be a 5 year project. So I planned an N scale shelf-interchange-switching layout built into a bookshelf I had planned. The idea is that I would spend some time doing directed switching to see if I can live with a point to point layout. However, I had originally planned to put the Redwood Empire staging under the layout , but it makes more sense to put them in the bookshelf, so the N scale is probably out.

While I was working on the layout design--I kind of had an idea of what I wanted, but nothing remotely concrete, I read Mid-sized and Manageable Track Plans by Iain Rice. He made a great case for a not so large layout. But my space, as basements go, is not that large. MR would call it 25 x 16, but with stairs and traffic areas, there is a 14 peninsula, but most of it is 9 feet wide. So my layout is close to what Iain Rice was calling mid-size. I did manage to feed some track around heaters, etc to get a climb to a second level.

Right about that time my research and givens and druthers gelled an I ended up with track plan I like. As for being like the big boys, like Joe etc. My sights are set on Furlow, Sellios, and Allen. I have a long way to go just with refining a plan.

As you can see by this reply, like the words typed here, my thoughts are all over the place. It is hard working through the options. Still, running trains through giant redwoods is a layout that needs to be built.