What is the best ways to wire a Layout?

[Anonymous]

What is the best way to wire a layout and who make the products, etc...I have finished laying corkbed and track and now ready to wire.

Thanks,
Greg

[Anonymous]

Greg,

It all depends on whether you want to invest in DCC now or at some time in the future. I don't have DCC myself, but I believe I will in the future after the prices drop and some bugs get worked out. The die-hard DCC guys will flame all over me for that but I don't care.

If you are going DCC right now, then you have to locate the "reversing sections" in your track plan and isolate them with plastic rail joiners or open gaps cut into the rail. Then you connect each rail to the DCC system and you should be in business. I would buy some "terminal strips" (sometimes called barrier strips or whatever) from Radio Shack and fasten wire from the power source to a terminal strip and then from the other side of the terminal strip to the rail with feeder wires every six feet or so on a large layout.

If you are going with DC control for now and you have a modest layout, I would use the Atlas series of components to wire your layout for 2-rail DC cab control. You still use terminal strips under the layout to help organize the wiring but the wiring is more complicated because you have to divide the layout into many more descrete sections called blocks. One of the two rails becomes the "common" rail and is attached to a single wire that runs under the entire layout. For some reason, several folks call this the "common bus wire"; go figure. The other rail, which is divided into the many sections is wired to the selector switches, one switch per rail section. For a moderate layout, this takes a lot of wires. The outputs from the power pack are then connected to the switches and you are in business.

Overall, the subject is much more complicated than I have described here and I recommend you get a book on wiring unless you are running a simple oval track plan. If you can't dream of getting a DCC system and you have a modest layout, or if you have a simple layout right now, I recommend the book "Wiring Your Layout with Atlas Components" from Atlas. If you have a fat wallet and are planning to have an elaborate layout then I recommend you begin getting information about the DCC systems available today and talk with some fellows that have these systems installed on their layouts.

If you need a lot of wire, find an electrician buddy to help you get it at a good price. If you have a modest layout, I would just get wire from Radio Shack. You will want several colors but mostly red, black, green and white. Good Luck - Ed

[Pruitt]

Best way -

Pay somebody else to do it while you sit back and watch!!

Realistic way -

Buy one of the books devoted to wiring a model railroad, then read through it and decide which approach (DCC, Block - common rail or not, or whatever) best suits your interests, then do that.

Comments -

If you choose block wiring, forget common rail. With it, you can't reverse one loco without reversing the whole darn railroad! Also, wire a block or two at a time, make sure they work right, then move to the next one or two. That way, you won't have to troubleshoot the entire railroad when you're all dome and find you have a a dead short - SOMEWHERE!

If you choose DCC - Use BIG buss wires with feeders off to the track for train power. Rails don't carry current cleanly enough to ensure a good signal to the reciever, if you route power only through the rails.

Good luck!

Mark B

[nfmisso]

Mark B:

"If you choose block wiring, forget common rail. With it, you can't reverse one loco without reversing the whole darn railroad! "

This is NOT true.

Nigel

[Pruitt]

Okay -

Explain how my statement is not tru, O rude one.

Perhaps, in your zeal to tell someone they don't know what they're talking about, you didn't comprehend what I wrote very well. So let me expand upon my comment so you CAN comprehend it....

I wasn't talking about taking a loco through a reversing loop. I was talking about simply flipping the reversing switch on a power supply, thus reversing the direction of current flow through the loco motor. With common rail wiring, you can't do that without reversing all other track that is part of that common rail section. Reversing loops obviously won't be affected, as neither will turntables and other special trackwork. But these sections are isolated, and so are not part of the common rail wiring.

And I'm not talking about using electronics or other elctrical tricks to make it possible to reverse the loco, all of which add to the complexity of the wiring - I clearly stated that I was talking about common rail block wiring. Yeah, if you want to add layers of special control circuits and electronics, maybe you can do it. But then it's no longer standard common rail block wiring. I suppose, for the benefit of those who thrive on trying to disparage others' expertise based on what was said not being true if all sorts of trickery and complexity is used, I should have said that.

So, once again, explain how this is not true for standard old common-rail block wiring, please.

[dknelson]

I am the last person on earth who should talk about electronic matters but ... here goes. To my knowledge the Atlas system is common rail and Atlas makes a nifty controller for reverse loops. But at some point yes you have to reverse on your throttle as well. But it is not difficult and most people seem to adapt to it quite nicely. If there are other reasons to favor common rail I would not let the issue of reverse loops talk you out of it.

Speaking of Atlas they have made a nifty item for years that too few people know about. Instead of the big bulky terminal piece of snap track, Atlas makes a fishplate/railjoiner that has the wire already attached. Saves time and looks better.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Perhaps I will have a go at it. The whole and only purpose of common-rail wiring was to simplify wiring, and to facilitate Cab Control...two cabs or more, with block wiring to provide for selective connection to the blocks.Reversing any one of the cabs ONLY reverses the polarity in the block[s] that cab is connected to AT THAT TIME, not "the whole railroad".
Common-rail simplifies wiring, but it would be pointless to have it at all, in any DC system, unless one also used cab control.I think Nigel,in pointing out that your statement was incorrect, was doing the thread originator a favor.The rudeness is yours. There is way too much advice tossed out in these forums that is misleading, even if meant with the best of intentions and assistance.
regards / Mike

[Pruitt]

Maybe YOU should learn what common-rail is.

[Pruitt]

THAT was rude, as was Nigel, because it just made a statement about someone else's knowledge, without defending that statement. There was no reason for it. Ilustration concluded.

As far as common rail wiring - that means only ONE rail, NOT BOTH, is divided into blocks. Since one rail is continuous through all blocks (hence "common"), YOU CANNOT REVERSE ONE BLOCK. The common rail, and the blocked rail, would both have the same polarity. IF you have two separate power packs you MIGHT get away with reversing one power pack without reversing the other if they both have floating grounds and are isolated from each other completely except for the common rail, but that falls into the category of electrical trickery that I talked about. I don't believe (though I'm not certain) that most model railroad power packs have floating grounds, as a floating ground may introduce safety concerns without additional circuitry to protect against electric shocks.

Now quit trying to pick fights and play nice, okay?

[Pruitt]

To clarify common rail, since I've received a few rude replies from those who apparently don't understand it -

Common rail means only one rail is blocked, i.e., broken into separate, insulated sections. Without floating ground power packs, you cannot reverse just one block - you'll create a direct short in the wiring.

Blocking BOTH rails, or dividing both of them into segments, allows for reversing individual blocks without special power packs.

BTW, I think most power packs are NOT floating ground. A floating ground power supply is something of an uncommon beast, because it leads to issues with electrical shock protection that must be solved with additional circuitry.

[Anonymous]

Greg;
this is unfortunate, but you are getting a rash of seriously incorrect information here, from an individual named Mark. He probably means well, but has no knowledge whatsoever, of common-rail wiring using two or more separate power packs.
I have 40+ years experience in just such systems, and can 100% assure you that common rail systems are easy and straightforward....and are nothing like what Mark suggests.
Do yourself a favor and try to pick up a basic MRR wiring book by Kalmbach or Atlas, which will verify and clarify the situation further.

[Anonymous]

Assuming you are no longer in grade five, perhaps you could hone your debating skills, Lord knows you have no electrical skills.

[Anonymous]

This message contains additional misinformation, needlessly confuses the issue with "floating grounds", and is a disservice to readers of the forum.
A single wire, or rail, can carry the positive of one power pack AND the negative of another power pack, at one and the same time. That is why common rail works.
To lecture on Model Railroad Electricity 101 should require the lecturer to have completed steps 001 through 100 first.

[Anonymous]

Greg,

I suppose some could consider this thread an endorsement of DCC as it simplifies wiring, but I wouldn't make any decision about that until you read a book or two about it. As I said earlier, I use two rail DC cab control myself and I am happy with it now.

Good Luck - Ed

[Pruitt]

An interesting observation, since I've worked in the trade for many years.

[Pruitt]

Unfortunately, unless the power packs have the "floating ground" I mentioned, there is a strong chance to burn out the power packs being used if one does what the previous poster suggests.

Why?

Because without the floating grounds, the power packs are using the same AC current from your house. Forcing a diferent ground level on each pack without the floating ground feature stresses the electronics in the pack, and can lead to failure of the power pack.

Perhaps, sir, you should spend several years studying power circuit design. Then you would be less likely to be giving such bad advice.

And, as I said in other posts, knock off the personal bull, OK? You seem to really like picking fights in this forum - I've seen you do it before.

[Pruitt]

OKay, pal, that's enough!

Does Model Railroader have any rules of conduct on this board? I've watched your immature, pathetic posts attacking others's expertise at other times on this board. Why don't you grow up and learn what you're talking about?

If you have 40+ years of experience and dispense such information as you have here, your local fire department must be VERY busy!

IT TAKES A SPECIFIC TYPE OF POWER PACK TO SAFELY ALLOW ONE TO DO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!! PERHAPS YOU SHOULD MENTION THAT (AS I HAVE SEVERAL TIMES) BEFORE SOMEONE BURNS THEIR HOUSE DOWN!!

Now GROW UP!

[Pruitt]

Before anyone panics, I was exaggerating for effect, as well as responding with strong sarcasm - I don't tolerate fools easily - to the bilious, inflammatory remarks made about me when I made the comment about someone burning their house down through wiring their power packs wrong. If the result of that irritation scared anyone at all, they have my apology. The overload protection in any commercial power pack will trip before your pack could build up enough heat to ignite a fire (No, no one told me to post this. I just don't want anyone to think a fire is likely if they miswire their power packs in the manner proposed).

I would go into greater technical detail as to what exactly is happening in the power packs when the ground levels shift, as they do when two non-floating ground power packs are delivering reversed polarities along one common conductor, but that would probably only open up new attacks by those whose mouths exceed their expertise. If anyone WANTS that explanation, say so and I'll provide it. Meanwhile, suffice it to say that the internal components of the packs will be subject to more heating, and thus more prone to shortened lifetimes and outright failure than if they are wired correctly. In quality packs like MRC's, that shortened life may still be measured in years. But then again, they MAY be floating ground power packs, in which case they are designed for just that kind of use (once again, unlike some other folks, I won't state as a certainty that which I do not know to be certain). The cheap train set power packs will be much more prone to early failure.

Finally, while experience counts for a lot, just having lots of experience wiring model railroads doesn't prove anything other than persistence. I, too, can honestly claim 40+ years of experience wiring model railroads. But I can also claim the knowledge gleaned from several engineering design courses in power systems, and 20+ years working around and with various power systems, large and small, high and low voltage.

A few other posters are right - read some books about wiring a model railroad for yourself. If you want a more in-depth understanding of power systems than these books supply, check out one or two of the electrical and electronic design books from the local library.

[dknelson]

This amazing thread explains why DCC has become so popular! It also explains why the English over the years have devoted so much time and attention to very sophisticated wind-up clockwork trains. (JUST JOKING guys.)
Common rail versus gapping both rails (which is required for the Signal Research system I have talked about before on this site) is best understood if you can see drawings with color showing the + and - and showing where the shorts occur -- as are in the Westcott and Sperandeo wiring books from Kalmbach. My Atlas book is almost 40 years old but it too has a useful discussion although I think it is oriented to common rail. Both systems have worked well for model railroaders over the years. So have a variety of control systems some of which have fallen by the wayside for a variety of reasons. Armed with the right book and a willingness to dive right in, anybody can wire a standard DC layout for two (or more) cab operation with reverse loops, with wyes, with whatever.
Like the bumper sticker says, Electricians Do It Without Shorts ....
Dave Nelson