Train lift between decks - latest update

[ndbprr]

A couple of semiunrelated thoughts:
1. Stacking tracks would allow you to store more than one train on the lift itself. Thus you would have two sections of railroad conceivably hundreds of miles apart since the train could be held in vertical staging.
2. By changing out the legs of the jack for longer ones larger lift could be generated conceivably with several feet of lift. Obviously when jacking a car strength and stability is the most important factor but it is a non-consideration in this instance.
3. Rather than switches and solenoids a copper pipe with wipers would allow the mechanism to operate until contact was lost. A nice simple heavy duty mechanical solution in my opinion. Mounted on a screw they could be adjusted for end travel.

[robengland]

Adrian, I have a broken drill bit in the end of one of the rods already [:D] In a fully assembled jack, it's hard to get a nice straight hole with primitive home-handyman tools. I have however managed to tap one of the handle-loops and put a bolt in and cut the head off (we keep thinking along the same lines) but still hard to get it nice and straight.

ndbprr, right now the wood is wide enough to take two tracks beside each other. Still pondering whether to do that. Getting two parallel tracks aligned nicely top and bottom will be hard enough. vertically stacking them is really making it tough, I think.
These cheap jacks are not made to be disassembled. If I were to make something longer I'd go with the Waldovia approach and make one from scratch
I like the idea of wipers on a pipe, so long as I can work out a dependable fine adjustment mechanism for the top and bottom limits. Must look at that option...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

ndbprr, right now the wood is wide enough to take two tracks beside each other. Still pondering whether to do that. Getting two parallel tracks aligned nicely top and bottom will be hard enough.

There's two tracks on the Waldovia lift, I cheated though and had the points on the lift platform as well.
It makes one track a little shorter than the other, but as the space was there I didn't want to waste it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

These cheap jacks are not made to be disassembled. If I were to make something longer I'd go with the Waldovia approach and make one from scratch

Something I hadn't realised (and the reason I ended up having two sets of scissor arms) was that scissor jacks have their arms 'spliced' top and bottom in a cog/tooth arrangement. This is what stops the jack from collapsing lengthways.

If you wanted to make them longer you would have to cut the arms in half and insert an extension piece in the middle. Replacing the whole arm wouldn't work.
Oh yes, you'd also need a longer length of threaded bar and that used on the jacks is probably unique to them.
You're right, you'd need to start from scratch as you would be replacing almost all of it..

[robengland]

It did cross my mind to try to find an identical threaded rod and run one rod all the way thru both, but as ytou say it is a sp[ecialised thread. I forget all the theory of threads but I think it is square cut not helical and who knows if the pitch is a standard one....

[grandeman]

The whole idea of a train lift is very interesting.

Here's a couple of my initial thoughts on the subject.

1/ It would be possible to "lift" a small staging yard. This would multiply the usefulness of the project considerably

2/ Why not use one scissor jack in the center and have a track arraingement (drawer sliders?) on each end to maintain precise alignment

3/ If the lift was located in the center of the layout instead of the end, trains could proceed to a destination on either end of the level they were elevated to. A simple runaround track/uncouple magnet for the locos would make this a reality. This would add considerable length to the elevator but would greatly increase it's versatility.

4/ If an elevator were used on each end of the layout (a lot of space, I know) There would be no need for the unprototypical return loop.

One technical hurdle that need to be addressed is that tracks leading into the elevator should be unpowered unless it's in position on that level. This could be easily accomplished and could prevent some major blunders.

[NZRMac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

It did cross my mind to try to find an identical threaded rod and run one rod all the way thru both, but as ytou say it is a sp[ecialised thread. I forget all the theory of threads but I think it is square cut not helical and who knows if the pitch is a standard one....

10-12mm threaded rod is just the same as 10-12mm bolts, standard nuts!!

Bunnings have rod Rob.

Ken.

[Anonymous]

The thread used on most scissor jacks (and some cheap Far East 'G' clamps) is a very course, deep thread that is square cut . Nothing like Metric or Imperial threads.
Similar to the one here, third from back:

Presumably it has more strength than a 'normal' thread due to it's intended purpose.
It could be 10tpi Acme thread.

http://www.metalreference.com/26%20SS%20thr%20rod%20Acme.htm

[ndbprr]

I was thinking of two or more tracks stacked vertically not side by side.

[NZRMac]

Or just have one lift level and three or four levels of stageing in your gap of 16". Select which level you want like a building lift, train rolls on and away you go. The copper pipe with wipers would work there too.

Ken.

[robengland]

Wow, heaps of great input. Thanks folks.

grandeman:
1) my motivation is to free up realestate that staging uses up, so I want my lift to have a small footprint. I can have a great big staging yard on a lower deck now.
2) one jack means one pivot point for the lift deck, which it can vibrate around. If there is any friction in the tracks at the end, rolling stock is going to look like corn popping. Two points of fastening means a rigid line. I'm not planning to have any guides at one end, and the guides at the other are just there to ensure track alignemtn and to give somewhere to mount cutoff switches (though that copper pipe idea may eliminate them too...)

Ken,
Yes I've looked long at the Bunnings rods. To replace the rods in an existing jack you could use a smaller diameter threaded rod with standard nuts and weld the nuts to the jack. Bears thinking about!! My personal issue here is I have no easy access to welding gear but that could be overcome...
As for multiple stopping points: great in theory but the complexity of accurate automated alignment scares me off. Aligning at each end of the motion will be complex enough for me. Remember as well as aligning the track you gotta cut the motor off, and control the power to the track on the deck and on the approaches.... I had to search around to get a 400mm movement. If the lift were to travel any further than that (which you'd need to service multiple decks) then you'd have to scratch build like the Waldovia RR did.

Tonight I wrestle with attaching the motor to that little round lump of metal that is the end pivot on the jack....

[Anonymous]

How are you getting on with it Rob?

[robengland]

The silence is due to a reality check [:-^] Three actually:

The problem with using jacks is getting the motor attached to the end of an existing shaft that has nothing sticking out for the chuck of the drill to grab. Without a big lathe I can't get a hole drilled cetred and straight. Even with a lathe i probably couldn't without disassembling the jack, which they are not made for. So the drill vibrates something awful attached to the several mechansisms I've tried.

Following on from this problem, it mightn't be so bad if I could get a good solid platform for the drill. But it has to attach to a small pivot on the side of the jack - there is nothiong much to attach to and the pivot is a very sloppy fit to the rest of the jack anyway. This enhances the thrashing of the drill

Third, I thought the ball-bearing unit I removed would not be missed for such light loads but I am still getting vibration in the washers acting as the bearing surface between the threaded rod and the pivot point on the jack

Next Tuesday I'm takingf it along to a monthly round-robin MR club I attend. If the collective wisdom there can't see a fix, I'll either
a) remove the threaded rod units and replace them with my own threaded rod and associated hardware, long enough for the drill to grab and with better washers as bearing plates
b) scrap the whole thing and go for a vertical threaded rod and two drawer runners, as described in a recent edition of MRPlanning - I forget which year.

Ideas that look simple in concept are seldom simple in execution [banghead]

[robengland]

OK the convocation of wise old MR heads says that I need to upgrade my engineering. The way the jacks are built is just too sloppy. Maybe buying two jacks from a wrecker's would have been a better way to go, if I could find two the same, as "real" jacks out of older cars would be more solidly built. SOmething to consider for those foolish enough to follow...

So I need
- grind the retaining lugs off and remove the existing rods
- one long threaded rod through both jacks and into the drill chuck
- new bearings to tighten up the fit in the jack pivots: guess I'll use brass tube
- some way to move one pivot on each jack back and forward on the rod, ie to lock into the thread: simplest fix will be two wing-nuts connected together. If that doesn't work I will need to weld (or epoxy???) something

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland
- some way to move one pivot on each jack back and forward on the rod, ie to lock into the thread: simplest fix will be two wing-nuts connected together. If that doesn't work I will need to weld (or epoxy???) something

Do you mean in order to adjust both jacks so they are at the same level?

To have a 'stop' or adjustment on the rod simply tighten two nuts against each other as in the diagram on our 'Train Lift' project page.

[robengland]

That's what I mean alright. Do they stay put OK?

Nice graphics BTW. What are you using?

[Anonymous]

Yes, just wind the two nuts to the position you want and then use a couple of spanners to tighten them together. They will be solid and take some moving unless you undo them with the spanners again.

I use Paint Shop Pro 8 for all my graphics. That diagram was done manually (painstakingly painted a bit at a time). I'm no expert but i do enjoy that sort of thing.

[robengland]

Well I'm back and it only took two years

After extensive engineering and tinkering, the car-jack lift is a pile of metal in my workshop, and the all-new TranzDeck III emerges. 

The picture makes more sense if you know that

• the lift system is white 
• there is a brown shelf full of G scale and HO scale models running across the top of picture,
• the unpainted timbers in front are framing for the upper deck of the railroad and unrelated to the lift,
• the lift deck itself is the long white strip (1.8m) running across the picture (it appears in both top and bottom positions in different pictures),
• the lift system is suspended from the wall on metal shelf brackets,
• the lift spans across the top half of a window, covered here with a sheet of styrene to reduce the glare
• the lower deck will run across the front of the lift in this picture - it is in removable modules. (the lift is still accessible for maintenance, and in dire necessity the whole thing can be dropped out to the floor leaving the rest of the railroad intact).
• the lift will be covered over with white styrene panels

It will be another month before I lay track and run trains on and off it, but I'm at the last engineering challenges.  it runs smoothly and (so far) reliably up and down without derailing rolling stock. 

Track power is delivered to the deck, and turns off if the deck is moving.   Power to the deck approaches is turned off if the deck is not there.  (the lightbulbs you see dangling are attached to the track power connectors to show track power on-off for testing). 

the deck won't move if anything is detected in the doorway to the deck (IRDOT detectors from MicroMark).  

Mechanical barriers descend when the deck is not there to stop someone shunting into space.

 

Now I need to engineer the following:

- track alignment at the edge of the deck

- PC video camera to stop trains in the right spot, and IRDOT indicator

- enhanced control panel with better indicators of detect status (all designed)

- remote automatic control instead of local manual (just requires two more relays)

 

The frame is a vertical sheet of 12mm pine plywood stiffened on the front with 20mm x 200mm pine boards and on the back with cheap batten strips (about 20mm by 50mmm) with a coat of primer.  The drive is part of an old ATM machine that used to raise the protective sheet of glass from the screen/keyboard (remember those?).   It is built for 20V DC.  I run it on 12V at about 3A. 

The runners are like oversized kitchen drawer slides, also ex-ATM.   Find your local ATM wrecker. 

 

The  lift deck is attached to an odd-shaped vertical plywood carrier attached to the drawer runners which are attached to the larger ply panel.  The deck-carrier is counter-balanced on lawn-mower-starter-cord (low stretch) through marine pulleys to an old window sash weight from the local scrap metal dealer, sawed to the right weight/length (hiding off to the right of picture)

Control is by a single heavy-duty DPDT centre off switch.  power then has to find its way thru a perf-board full of relays that provide the safety interlocks on both lift motor power and track power.

Sorry to anyone who may have followed me down the car-jack path: I just couldn't get the motor drive tight and steady enough.  I hope you enjoy TranzDeck III - I'll report back as I get it finally working!

[ndbprr]

Why not make a scissor jack from plywood and some fixed nuts epoxied to the cross member?  There isn't sufficient weight involved to be conerned about the load and that way the arms could be long enough to raise the track to whatever height is needed.  I may have to think about this further.  I am not sure a windshield wiper motor would be adequate however.  Not real sure of the torque but an entire window mechanism with the arcing gear section run on reduced voltage could be an alternative also.  12 volts might just leave the train hanging in the air on a down cycle if it ran as fast as my windows.  That assembly could be had at a junkyard fairly cheaply and does transfer the motion to a linear direction.  It also has built in limits. A right and left door mechanism would be mirror images of each other and could be very usable.

[robengland]

Good thoughts.  Any object as long as a train lift that moves sideways tends to have a lot of friction from binding: it needs to be very tightly engineered to keep it level as it moves.  trust me, three years of experience says this isn't as easy as it looks.  The key is a rigid back-plane, nicely aligned tight runners, and a counterbalance to make up as easy as down.  Then  the linear force can come from all sorts of sources, including driving the counterbalance pulleys, a rotating threaded rod (but make sure you get the kind of thread designed for linear force), a belt-drive (which is what my mechanism is at heart)... See links earlier in this thread for other ideas that have worked, including a great big plywood wheel with a crank!

Car window winders may not have enough linear travel to give a good separation between decks.  My next option if this one failed was a 4WD car jack - big linear threaded-rod type.

 

[ndbprr]

A car window winder as you call it has a pretty tight tolerance track to keep the window straight.  As far as travel if it was attached to the end of a lift arm with a pivot off center at a fulcrum it could easily double or triple the window travel.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

That lifting mechanism is a lot better than the one I had. It was sent up by pulling on two thick strings and lowered by releasing the strings. Both strings were pulled by the same manual winch so there wasn't much chance of the rig tipping.

[robengland]

I have posted lots of documentation, learnings, wiring diagrams and photos of the working deck here.  Enjoy

[dinwitty]

Hi folks.
I'm building a train lift (elevator) to carry trains from lower deck staging to upper deck railroad in an around-the-walls shelf layout.
I've been wrestling with the track plan to cram staging, mainline, city, port and a steam museum into a little 10'x10' study, and I decided that to have what i want the staging just has to be on a second level with the main deck flat, not
consumed by lots of up and down grades to and from the staging. So then it came down to a few options:
1) helix: just barely possible round the water heater in the laundry next door or even outside in a purpose built enclosure, but both are enormous engineering challenges
2) a switchback up and down the wall: workable but tedious to use manually and a beggar to automate
3) a train elevator, which is where my thinking has ended up. I found this http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/projects/trainlift-01.htm
(I loved the "After several minutes of careful planning and design").
They built a lift modelled on car scissor-jacks. I thought: why copy a jack?
Why not just use two matched jacks coupled by a shaft?

A couple of cheapie jacks from Repco (a local tra***ools-barn) should do it. I'm thinking that buying the jacks will be quicker and easier. And given prices these days, cheaper. Building from scratch, making the pivoting axles with a threaded centre for the rod is a bit of work. If I use jacks, I'll just join the two existing threaded rods together. There is a coupling on one end for the jack handle, and hopefully a bit of rod at the other end, so i'm thinking a length of square tube, or round tube squared off, will hopefully be all I need to join them together.

I also like their docking/alignment mechanism top and bottom, simple and effective. And I like the use of a battery powered drill, given they are about $40 at *** Smith (a local trash-electrical-barn) these days. It may be able to be used as a stall motor or it may need to have a contact switch cutoff at the limits of travel.
Or I may have to use a dedicated stall motor instead of a hacked drill.

So I've embarked on a proof-of-concept. If successful it opens up all sorts of possibilties. I wouldn't want the lift in the middle of a journey but with staging on one deck and layout on the other I think it will be excellent.

I fell at the first hurdle though: the cheapie jacks at Repco or Warehouse have 10" travel. I need 12-15" to get a useful clearance between decks.
I could still make it work with an inch or two of ramp each end of the lift, but I wanted bigger jacks. Luckily after hunting I found a 12" travel jack at KMart ( a worldwide trash-everything-barn).

First testing last night. Needed a little modification to get access to the central threaded rod from both sides so I can string them together: hard work for the Proxxon hacking away at a 750kg jack!! (Was too tight to get my angle grinder in there).

Smooth enough driven by a power drill (I think, didn't actually have rolling stock on it yet). One issue is going to be the variation in vertical speed between the bottom and top of the travel. I think it will be OK, just a bit slow at the top end.

Another issue will be the motor. I'd like to use a battery drill - nice high torque for low cost. But I'd also like to use a stall motor, to maintain alignment pressure at each end of travel. Otherwise I'll have to rig cutoff switches (I want to put a train on the lift then go off to do something else and leave it unattended as it raises or lowers). Any ideas on a 30-60 rpm stall motor with a bit of torque?

I have in the planning using the Walthers Carfloat (which I have) and have 2 docks. I will load it up with cars and physically carry it to the other dock. This may be an oportunity to be a klutz and dump the whole lot, but oh well.

If you havent figgered the mounting method, maybe find a salvage house or maybe an artist store has this, drawer slides and mount it vertically and mount your elevator on it, and physically lift it in place with locks.

Motorizing would be cool there might be some device around to do that.

 

[tomikawaTT]

I recall following the earliest parts of this thread with fascination, and (sort of) heaving a sigh of relief when the vertical drawer slide system finally emerged.  OTOH, since my situation allows the elevator end to move in an arc rather than a straight line I'm going with John Armstrong's, "Dehydrated canal lock," to move unit trains as part of an empties in/loads out scene at a large colliery.  Automation will be provided by a large handle, readily moveable by the same 0-5-0 that controls the locomotive and turnouts.  A combination of gates and track circuitry will keep operators from trying to load or unoad an elevator that isn't there.

The plan SEEMS straightforward and almost idiot-proof.  It will probably be a couple of years before the world will know if this idiot can actually make it work.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[robengland]

See photos of gates on my website

I built circuits to kill the apporach tracks, then I realised that since half of all moves will be BACKING on to the elevator the dead sections will need to be 2 metres long.   On my little layout that ain't gonna work, so i now rely entirely on the physical gates and, later, signals

 

[robengland]

Click here to see a video (warning: 50MB). The lift goes up and down, then the loco rolls off and stops halfway on and off.  the lift refuses to cut it on half.   the loco then rolls back on the lift and goes up and down again.  (Track not laid at the top exit yet).