Walthers?

[selector]

Amen, Ray. Where, in any document ever produced, except for maybe some way out in LEFT field socialist dogma text that I have never read, does it say if even one person can have a 30" flat panel HDTV, then everyone shall be entitled to one? Even Marx never went so far as to say that every person has the right to have a hobby, and to have the money to pay for it!! Can you imagine if he went to Alaska during the gold rush, and said to the few who were unlucky enough to have worthless claims, "You have the RIGHT to have gold (or trains)." Really? Show me where it says that.

[MAbruce]

As usual, the central point is being missed on the "affordability "debate.

Has this always been a rich man's hobby? Maybe so, but I think that's not really important to debate. So what is?

To expand on something that was said earlier - Why would a teenager shell out over $100 for a loco when he/she can get video games instead?

Are you starting to see the real issue here? It's not a matter of whether people can afford this hobby; it's whether they WANT to afford the hobby. Can a typical teenager shell out $100 for something these days? Sure. So what makes us think they will shell it out for a MRR loco instead of video games? If anything, something that won’t be up and going with a flip of a switch needs to win on price.

The bottom line is that if this hobby wants to significantly grow, it must attractively price itself against the other “hobbies” that are dominating the marketplace. Then you can start talking about mass market potential.

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy
Now two relatively high-paying white collar paychecks can barely make ends meet these days in some areas.

...And THAT is a highly debatable tiopic. Granted, there are those who are trying there best just to scrape by and indeed need both paychecks to make ends meet. I wonder, however, how many folks "think" they need both paychecks or are forced into a two-income situation because they have gotten themselves into financial straits from either overspending and/or overindulging. (Perhaps, a higher percentage than we might want to admit or realize?)

Why? Because some folks have a difficult time making the distinction between two primary catagories: "Needs" and "Wants". Some things we think we "need" or just "can't live without" really has more with what we "desire" than actually need. And this can come from many different pressures; some from with out, some from within - some good, most bad.

Take notice that most of the commercials and advertisements we see in magazines and on TV are geared to trying to make you and I discontent with what we have. Therefore, I "need" that new BLI locomotve...or, I just "have to have" that large-screen TV. You know, if we actually sat down and honestly looked at what we spend our money on, we might be surprised to find out that we can actually "get by" on a lot less than what we think we can. (Hey, I'm pointing the finger at myself, too.)

It often comes down to priorities. What are your priorities for buying what you do? A person's priorities will tell you a lot about who that person is and what he or she is thinking. Our hobby, and the way and reasons why we spend our money needs to be kept in a proper perspective. It never hurts to ask ourselves sometimes, "Do I really need this?

Somehow I think this thread has deviated somewhat from the original post...

Tom

[davekelly]

ts,

Yup. I think you bring up a valid point. Re: my post a few up from here.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: I aplogize in advance if my tone is hostile or offensive, Jet. I just do not buy the 'everybody else is wrong, nasty, predatory, mean, greedy....and I am just downtrodden 'cuz I don't got trains." crud.

crandell/selector: Actually, I'm not complaining about being downtrodden--I make a pretty comfortable living and can afford to fork out enough on hobbies to keep me happy. I got sick of working for indifferent bosses, so I made an effort to find better employment where my work would be valued and compensated. Thus, I can afford to play with trains.

The erstwhile starter of this thread, JJUrich, is complaining about being downtrodden, and he and others claim that it is solely the model railroad industry's fault that he can't afford all the trains he wants. I counter-argued that the amount of disposable income for American workers, in real dollars, has gone down drastically in the past few decades. This has meant that, unlike the 1950s and 60s, fewer blue-collar families are "middle-class" and can afford hobbies like model railroading. I wasn't trying to foment socialist revolution or anything, just pointing out the facts. If one looks at the price of model railroad items compared to similar consumer goods, they're really no more expensive than they were 30-40 years ago--but the average working Joe is probably not as able to afford them as they used to.

There are plenty of cheap pastimes out there, for those willing to look for them. JJ is in the unique situation of serving our country in Iraq, which means he's quite a ways from the local hobby shop or swap meet where he might get a better price than the Walthers catalog. I would suggest to him that maybe now is not the time to pursue model railroading as a hobby--save it, for a time when your funds are more available and trains are easier to get at a reasonable price. I love trains too--but I stopped model railroading when I entered college and didn't restart until about three years ago, about 15 years later--in the intervening time I was too busy educating myself, pursuing a career, living cheap and saving money so I could afford things I wanted later on. I did have hobbies then--but they were cheap hobbies, ones I enjoyed that didn't dent my budget. Some of them, like learning how to fix computers and how to work leather, even helped me make money.

We mention John Allen often enough--he, too, was in a financially strapped situation in the mid-forties, and during World War II model railroad supplies were difficult to get. So he built structures and models out of scrap pieces of wood, cardboard, wire, whatever he could find--buying only what he couldn't fabricate himself. The result? A very inexpensive hobby, and a masterful level of model-building skill! Perhaps that's a lesson to take to heart for those who are strapped for cash.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,The club that I am a member of 80% of the members are blue collar workers..The hobby is still affordable if you beat the manufacturers at their own game by buying at discount that is found on the Internet,mail order hobby shops or e bay.Then there is the use market..One does not need to pay full Price these days at their LHS.
Now the real question remains does one need $150.00 locomotives and $30.00 cars in order to enjoy the hobby? The answer is no one can still enjoy the hobby with Athearn locos and cars.
Its your call.

[trainnut57]

I haven't browsed this whole site, but what I know must be said in defense of Walther's. I too noticed that Athearn was not included in the 2005 Walther's Catalog. When I questioned Walthers as to why, they replied that when Athearn was bought out last year, the new owners chose to sever ties with Walthers and do all their advertisement by magazine (such as MR) or through their website that you "join" for information on new releases, which rarely includes actual retail price. This time, it's not Walther's fault

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainnut57

I haven't browsed this whole site, but what I know must be said in defense of Walther's. I too noticed that Athearn was not included in the 2005 Walther's Catalog. When I questioned Walthers as to why, they replied that when Athearn was bought out last year, the new owners chose to sever ties with Walthers and do all their advertisement by magazine (such as MR) or through their website that you "join" for information on new releases, which rarely includes actual retail price. This time, it's not Walther's fault

First one does not need to join Horizon to look over their web page and if one looks close enough one will find the MSRP of new releases.
I do not blame Horizon for dropping Walthers after they are competitors.

[rrinker]

Good point Bruce.

In the 60's, the MR hobby faced competition from slot cars. Why, even in MR the Atlas ads included their Mini Motoring sets and Tru-Scale even had slot car track! That one was beat back, the cars turnedout to be more of a fad than a lasting hobby, even though my LHS has 2 big tracks and someone is usually on them, you don't have to wait in line.
Now it's the video game. But we have another issue along witht he video games, that was mentioned elsewhere by Joe Fugate. Trains are disappearing - REAL trains. I'm sure today you could find plenty of young people who know what a train is, but have never seen one. Witness a common excuse at grade crossing accidents - "I didn't think the train ran here anymore" Video games alone aren't to blame. I play video games - not as much as my kids, to be sure, but I do play. The disappearance of trains from everyday life is the big factor. Who's going to take up a hobby about something they've had no first hand experience with? Yes, if you run a train trip it usualy is PACKED - witness the last trip I took, tickets went on sale a month in advance and were sold out in less than a week, and we're talking 15 cars full here. But I'll bet fewer than 1/4 of the people on that train were railfans or modellers, most were going to see the nice scenery and visit an interesting town at the other end of the line.
There is still some hope, every time I've gone to Steamtown there's been plenty of people wandering around, especially children. Hopefully some of them will be inspired to take up model railroading. In a way it's good that there are fewer of those cheap junky train sets like there were in the 70's, sets like that do more harm than good when peieces break, the cars don't stay on the track, and the locos burn up.

--Randy

[Jetrock]

What's funny, and hopeful, is that there are MORE trains now, in terms of tonnage being carried! With the demise of the ICC, a lot more freight is being carried on trains and new short lines are being formed in places where the super-Class 1's don't care to go. With crowded and congested freeways and the hassles and indignities of airline travel, commuter rail and long-distance rail is more in use, and many cities are turning to trolleys (called "light rail vehicles" now) to carry commuters. So maybe the new generation will be more interested in trains than the current one who grew up in a world where the train was considered an old-fashioned and obsolete way to get around.

[Anonymous]

model railroading has NEVER been cheap! Unless..................you consider the cost per hour enjoyed. A kit that cost two hundred dollars is lot by most any of our standards......but how many hours of engrossment do you get for your dollar.? I wonder how many hours most modelers spend on a kit of this magnitude? As far as locos and cars go.....who says you need ten or twenty locos and and hundred boxcars?? Design within your monetary and time budget. A short line may provide hours and hours of entertainment, possibly employing ONE loco and a dozen boxcars and a few feet of track.....Ill never have the room, time or money to build the next F&SM but ill build something to my liking just the same......i wish i realized this before i acquired half of the stuff i have........hmmmm a short line, one loco.......and a lifetime of enjoyment......anyone remember Ben King's layout? he worked on one modest railroad pretty much his adult life.........thats one of the beauties of this hobby.......you can enjoy at ANY level........dont worry about how big a building Lorrell Joiner has or how many locos!

[RedGrey62]

I think you'll find a whole new way of thinking in the next couple of years. Many different companies are starting to see the value in cooperation versus pure competition. The manufacturers and distributors have a vested interest in keeping the hobby strong, keeping existing members happy, and most important....getting new people into it. Its the only real way to really grow the hobby and make money. Right now, they make most of the money off limited runs targeted at specific buyers. Limited production and inventory costs, that gets passed on to the distributors and dealers. I would suspect that Walthers and Horizon will come to an agreement and Athearn, MDC, and others will again grace the pages of the "wish book". Why am I making this statement? Because everyone wins. Do I expect to see a Horizon Hobbies Catalog that rivals Walthers, no, because it costs money and its a big chance that we'll buy it. Of course these are just my thoughts and I may be way out to lunch, but I hope not. [:D]

Rick

[Anonymous]

have wages gone down?? i doubt it........but the standard of living is affected by huge taxes we pay! the real question is....how many hours would the average working man work to pay for an item?? most of us live much better than our parents did...many of us have several TV'S...dad struggled to buy ONE. Same with autos....many families have several....many model rails were happy to own a single loco!...anyhow who cares what athearn pays for labor?? its irrelevant. If Athearn (or any one els)e is ripping you off, then in short order someone will undersell them....it is an economic certainty...you can vote for or against athearn or any one else, with your dollars.

[loathar]

I'm still trying to justify putting a $25 decoder in a loco I bought for $5 20 years ago.
( I'm sure I'll talk myself into it. I'm kind of a push over.) I think it's all about the level of detail goal you set for yourself.I'll spend the extra money for the higher detail. One thing
I don't like is all the expensive pre painted and pre built stuff.I like painting all my own figures and building my own stuff. That's what puts the hobby in hobby for me.

[jsoderq]

The reason you will not see Athearn in the Walthers catalog is that Horizon bought Athearn to force hobby shops to buy train stuff from them . They have been a big player in RC but almost no train stuff so many shops used that as an excuse not to buy from them Now you have to if you are going to carry Athearn.

[oleirish]

OK I agree with most of every thing said here ,[:)] But why is the conerstone kits so #&*% high,I've looked at them at the LHS they are plastic kits,and LIFELIKE,ATLAS ECT are disapearing from the markitt, and the shelf, of the LHS ,the conerstone saw mill is in two parts and both are $65.00 apeace[:(!][V][|(]Granted they are made by Walthers,But you can almost get CAMPBELL scale kits for that price,A 20.00 kit can be weathered and detailed to look as good or better[(-D][2c]

JIM

[davekelly]

While I'm not sure of the exact reason for the increased cost of structure kits, I can only assume that at least a part of the increase is the increased price of oil. Plastic has traditionally been seen as an inexpensive alternative to brass and wood models. During the last year or so we've seen a dramtic increase in price of oil. While not responsible for the entire increase in price of structure kits, I'm sure it is more than a small part of it.

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

While I'm not sure of the exact reason for the increased cost of structure kits, I can only assume that at least a part of the increase is the increased price of oil. Plastic has traditionally been seen as an inexpensive alternative to brass and wood models. During the last year or so we've seen a dramtic increase in price of oil. While not responsible for the entire increase in price of structure kits, I'm sure it is more than a small part of it.[sigh]You could be right,but WOW a plastic kit.Oh well my[2c]
JIM

[robengland]

It is kinda amusing to watch the citizens of one of the least regulated least taxed most open markets on earth debating whether products are a rip off. Your prices in the USA are extraordinarily low compared to say my country. The actual price is lower and your disposable income is higher. Quit whining and enjoy the bounty you are surrounded with.

Some simple economic facts for you:

1) If Athearn are non-competitive then Accurail will eat their lunch.

2) If there was a market today for the crappy un-detailed low-tech products of the 50s then someone would quickly start making them to mop up that market. The opposite is true. Look at Bachmann Spectrum and Lifelike Proto2000 for two companies moving themselves upmarket, following customer demand.

3) Once labour was cheap, now it isn't. Even in China. Contrary to popular perception, professions like die makers and machinists and electronic assembly technicians don't work for a bowl of rice a day. If you pay more it is because the people making your toys are enjoying a better standard of living. Ask an old Japanese brass machinist if he'd go back to his paycheck and working conditions of the 50s when you enjoyed cheap brass locos.

[davekelly]

robengland,

Your forget one important thing. Griping is fun!

Seriously, you bring up some interesting points.

[selector]

Rob, you are correct. Even the savvy Chinese are catching on to the avaricious nature of we westerners with our insatiable lust for consumables. They offer to work, not for $2/hr, like you might think, but for maybe $4/hr because they know that N American union wages are sky high, and can be beat with higher wages than what we'd expect. (there's something ironic about a Marxist society taking jobs from union people elsewhere with alacrity...and dealing with capitalists in doing so.)

[robengland]

Yes the quality and professionalism of work out of China is rising and hence its cost.
Pretty soon some even poorer country will get its act together enough to start taking bottom-end work off the Chinese.
The Chinese move up into middle-class work, following Japan, Singapore, Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia etc and another country starts on the path to a better standard of living.
And so it goes on.
Unionists should be all for it as it drives a better standard of living for workers everywhere.

Anyway, we are getting too political. Back to trains....