Hello,
After a lot of reading and reasearch, I would like to run Peco turnouts over my layout compared to the Hornby points. Reason being is that they aren't as sharp on the turn out and I can run bigger locos.
i noticed that the points don't seem to come with rail joiners? Am I right in thinking I need to attach the rail joiners on manually?
Also are the rail joiners easy to put on? I noticed that the sleepers run all the way up to the end of the point. I'm not going to need to trim the sleepers will I?
I also noticed that I can use flex track after the points to bring the tracks back to paralel I think.
i know it's a newbie question, but i shouldn't have bought the Hornby points.
The points are the only items that move on a turnout. So, no joiners needed there. The factory attaches them to the closure rails, the two that flare out beside the frog and form guards.
On the opposite side of the frog from the sliding points are two frog rails. They are gapped on the Code 83 Insulfrog variety, which I expect you intend to use...? Those two end and match the ends of the two stock rails, the outer rails. There is where you will need two pairs of metal or insulated joiners, depending on your intentions, or a combination of the two types of joiners. They are simple to install, but are not provided.
Thank you for your help
I'm using Code 100 with insulfrog because I'm new to model railroading so it eliminates the need for insulated rail joiners.
I was worried I'd have to cut the sleepers to get the rail joiners in. Sorry... I'm still learning and I couldn't find anything on the web.
I honestly have never had to know if Peco Code 100 turnouts of any description are power-routing like their Streamline Code 83 insulfrog turnouts are. In fact, apart from my own hand-made turnouts and the common Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 DCC-friendly turnouts, I know almost nothing about any other variety.
However, you have said you don't need insulating joiners. That may be so, but if you have similar turnouts at each end of a siding, you'll get a short conflict if you only line one of those turnouts for taking the siding and not the other UNLESS you either gap at the end of one of the two turnouts or use a pair of insulated joiners.
As for having to mangle the ties, only if you intend to use non-Peco joiners. The universal Code 100/83 Atlas joiners, for example, are too wide and will jam up against the small spikehead details soon after they begin to take up the rail foot.
selector However, you have said you don't need insulating joiners. That may be so, but if you have similar turnouts at each end of a siding, you'll get a short conflict if you only line one of those turnouts for taking the siding and not the other UNLESS you either gap at the end of one of the two turnouts or use a pair of insulated joiner
However, you have said you don't need insulating joiners. That may be so, but if you have similar turnouts at each end of a siding, you'll get a short conflict if you only line one of those turnouts for taking the siding and not the other UNLESS you either gap at the end of one of the two turnouts or use a pair of insulated joiner
i think I understand now. So after my first turnout, if I wanted to add another turnout on that siding I would use a pair of insulated rail joiners BEFORE the beginning of the next turnout? Is that right?
Paul280981 selector However, you have said you don't need insulating joiners. That may be so, but if you have similar turnouts at each end of a siding, you'll get a short conflict if you only line one of those turnouts for taking the siding and not the other UNLESS you either gap at the end of one of the two turnouts or use a pair of insulated joiner i think I understand now. So after my first turnout, if I wanted to add another turnout on that siding I would use a pair of insulated rail joiners BEFORE the beginning of the next turnout? Is that right?
Hang on a second.
I'm not sure that's the case. Insulated joiners would be needed for Peco Electrofrog turnouts, but not for Insulfrogs. Better check the instructions.
In any case, I think selector was referring to facing pairs of turnouts, not successive pairs.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
What I am saying, from experience, is that if you are using POWER ROUTING turnouts, regardless of who offers them on the market, you will have to ensure that the turnouts on both ends of the siding are lined the same way or you'll get a short. If you line the points on one end, but forget to line the points on the other end, and the first metal tire crosses beyond the frog plastic insulator and onto the frog rails, you'll get a short. So, to prevent that (that is, to allow you to only have to line one set of points on a double-ended siding) you either gap or insulate beyond the frog of one of the two turnouts.
Turnout wiring guite. While these are for handlaid turnouts the principles apply. Not sure if this will answer some of your questions or cause confusion.
http://www.proto87.com/turnout-wiring-for-DCC.html
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
selector What I am saying, from experience, is that if you are using POWER ROUTING turnouts, regardless of who offers them on the market, you will have to ensure that the turnouts on both ends of the siding are lined the same way or you'll get a short. If you line the points on one end, but forget to line the points on the other end, and the first metal tire crosses beyond the frog plastic insulator and onto the frog rails, you'll get a short. So, to prevent that (that is, to allow you to only have to line one set of points on a double-ended siding) you either gap or insulate beyond the frog of one of the two turnouts.
That's really useful! I'll add rail insulators after a couple of my points to aviold this.
ROBERT PETRICKI'm not sure that's the case. Insulated joiners would be needed for Peco Electrofrog turnouts, but not for Insulfrogs. Better check the instructions.
Robert, you are absolutely correct - the Insulfrog turnouts don´t need insulated rail joiners.
Peco turnouts come with a manual, which describes how to wire either Electrofrog or Insulfrog turnouts properly. I am a complete electricals goof, and even I managed to get that straight!
Crandell - your are not right stating that all power routing turnouts need to be turned to the same direction to avoid shorts. I never did that with my N scale Kato Unitrack turnouts. However, if you want to enjoy the power routing feature in a passing siding, you have to do just that.
You want to be careful using too many Insulfrog turn outs in a row
With todays Sound equipted locos you will create dead spots
See the video of my layout where i used insulfrog turn outs
to cross over from one main line to the second then to a branch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrZMZ9lpACk
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
Excellent point!
IMHO, Electrofrog turnouts are the better choice and once you know the trick to wire them properly, they are not intimidating anymore!
Sir MadogIMHO, Electrofrog turnouts are the better choice and once you know the trick to wire them properly, they are not intimidating anymore!
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
selector In fact, apart from my own hand-made turnouts and the common Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 DCC-friendly turnouts, I know almost nothing about any other variety.
Selector - Peco Insulfrog do not require gaps in the situation you outline. Shorts can arise due to overwidth wheels but this is unlikely with modern equipment. My own layout has about 40 Insulfrog with no gaps at all and operates flawlessly.
I suggest you locate the Peco instructions on line so that you get a better understanding of Peco turnouts.
Bill
bagalSelector - Peco Insulfrog do not require gaps in the situation you outline. Shorts can arise due to overwidth wheels but this is unlikely with modern equipment. My own layout has about 40 Insulfrog with no gaps at all and operates flawlessly.
Mike
I have both Peco code 100 and code 83 insulfrog turnouts on my layout. No insulated rail joiners needed even on sidings. Of course any reverse loop or wye would need insulation.
What I do though is add feeders at least after the frog leg of a turnout as the turnout does add electrical resistance.
C&O Fan You want to be careful using too many Insulfrog turn outs in a row With todays Sound equipted locos you will create dead spots See the video of my layout where i used insulfrog turn outs to cross over from one main line to the second then to a branch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrZMZ9lpACk
I have quite a number of crossovers and don't have any issues with sound locos. The unpowered section is about one inch so to get a sound drop the truck wheelbase would need to be less than one inch and the turnouts would have to match the truck spacing.
Do you have the same problem with a six axle loco?
bagal C&O Fan You want to be careful using too many Insulfrog turn outs in a row With todays Sound equipted locos you will create dead spots See the video of my layout where i used insulfrog turn outs to cross over from one main line to the second then to a branch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrZMZ9lpACk I have quite a number of crossovers and don't have any issues with sound locos. The unpowered section is about one inch so to get a sound drop the truck wheelbase would need to be less than one inch and the turnouts would have to match the truck spacing. Do you have the same problem with a six axle loco? Bill
No the 6 axel locos go thru the gauntlet just fine as do some of my larger steam
But i have a lot of 0-4-0 ~~0-6-0 ~~~0-8-0 and all my 4 axel geeps and Uboats will stall with out keep alives I model the C&O in the transition period so not a lot of 6 axel diesels were used then
I used Insulfrog turnouts when i started the layout because i had 12 turnouts left over from an earlier layout and I was straight DC
But when i converted to DCC they became a problem
If i had it to do over I'd have used Electro Frog even though the cost would have been higher
You can see from the video the problem is real and if it weren't for the keep alive equipped loco pushing the lead loco it would be a dead stall
C&O FanYou can see from the video the problem is real and if it weren't for the keep alive equipped loco pushing the lead loco it would be a dead stall
Anyone know why the Peco points don't come with rail joiners?
it appears that I'll have to attach them myself.
The Hornby standard turnouts appear to be too tight to fit the larger 2-8-2 locos that I want which is annoying because I've bought a few of them.
Can I use flex track from the Peco turnout and shape it into the curve I want? I'm actually a bit disappinted Hornby don't offer a medium sized turnout. It appears I'm going to be up with Hornby track and flex track and Peco turnouts.
I think I will insulate a few turnouts just to be safe.
My small 0-6-0 loco gets stuck over the Hornby points that don't have the small clip in them to convert the points to DCC. I'm hoping with the larger Bachmann locos (Mikado 2-8-2) this won't be a problem with the tender pickups.
Paul280981The Hornby standard turnouts appear to be too tight to fit the larger 2-8-2 locos that I want which is annoying because I've bought a few of them.
That´s correct - the Hornby switches have a very tight radius, which will turn into a constant source of annoyment if you use them.
Paul280981Can I use flex track from the Peco turnout and shape it into the curve I want?
Yes, that´s what flex track is intended for.
Paul280981My small 0-6-0 loco gets stuck over the Hornby points that don't have the small clip in them to convert the points to DCC. I'm hoping with the larger Bachmann locos (Mikado 2-8-2) this won't be a problem with the tender pickups.
Sell them, but don´t use them!
Paul, may I recommend to get a good primer book, like Kalmbach´s "Getting Started", which you will find in the shop section of this web page? You will find many an answer in those books.
Sir Madog Paul280981 The Hornby standard turnouts appear to be too tight to fit the larger 2-8-2 locos that I want which is annoying because I've bought a few of them. That´s correct - the Hornby switches have a very tight radius, which will turn into a constant source of annoyment if you use them. Paul280981 Can I use flex track from the Peco turnout and shape it into the curve I want? Yes, that´s what flex track is intended for. Paul280981 My small 0-6-0 loco gets stuck over the Hornby points that don't have the small clip in them to convert the points to DCC. I'm hoping with the larger Bachmann locos (Mikado 2-8-2) this won't be a problem with the tender pickups. Sell them, but don´t use them! Paul, may I recommend to get a good primer book, like Kalmbach´s "Getting Started", which you will find in the shop section of this web page? You will find many an answer in those books.
Paul280981 The Hornby standard turnouts appear to be too tight to fit the larger 2-8-2 locos that I want which is annoying because I've bought a few of them.
Paul280981 Can I use flex track from the Peco turnout and shape it into the curve I want?
Paul280981 My small 0-6-0 loco gets stuck over the Hornby points that don't have the small clip in them to convert the points to DCC. I'm hoping with the larger Bachmann locos (Mikado 2-8-2) this won't be a problem with the tender pickups.
i used the Hornby turnouts :-( I'll put them back up on eBay.
Im actually thinking of getting the express turnouts from Hornby for my sidings to try and keep everything Hornby. Although they are rather big and I'm not too sure how my 0-6-0 loco would fair. The larger loco would be ok and I'm assuming the AC6000 I eventually want would have 8+ pickups and not have any problems.
ill have to see if I can get that book maybe. I'm in Australia so I'm a fair way away unfortunately!
Water Level Route C&O Fan You can see from the video the problem is real and if it weren't for the keep alive equipped loco pushing the lead loco it would be a dead stall I got a chance to watch your video and see what you mean. However, I have similar set-ups and, like Bagal, do not have issues. One of the drawbacks in my opion of the Peco turnouts is their power routing feature which relies on good contact between the points and the stock rails. Have you tried cleaning the contact area on each? Next failure point is at the "hinge" of the points to the closure rails. Not sure if that can easily be cleaned up as that's not one I've had to deal with. Obviously dropping a set of feeders on the tail end of first turnout in the video should solve your issues (if I'm remembering your video correctly), but that is sometimes easier said than done! I assure you the issue you are experiencing isn't due to using too many in a row, but rather one of a continuity issue due to age/corrosion/paint/glue/etc.
C&O Fan You can see from the video the problem is real and if it weren't for the keep alive equipped loco pushing the lead loco it would be a dead stall
I got a chance to watch your video and see what you mean. However, I have similar set-ups and, like Bagal, do not have issues. One of the drawbacks in my opion of the Peco turnouts is their power routing feature which relies on good contact between the points and the stock rails. Have you tried cleaning the contact area on each? Next failure point is at the "hinge" of the points to the closure rails. Not sure if that can easily be cleaned up as that's not one I've had to deal with. Obviously dropping a set of feeders on the tail end of first turnout in the video should solve your issues (if I'm remembering your video correctly), but that is sometimes easier said than done! I assure you the issue you are experiencing isn't due to using too many in a row, but rather one of a continuity issue due to age/corrosion/paint/glue/etc.
You are welcome to come over and put your theories to the test
However i should mention over the years i've gone thru many cans of CRC and Emory boards
Which works for a while till the arching causes loss of contact on the closure rail
And all the turnouts have wire drops on the base end
2 of the best soultions are either electro frogs or keep alives
Not wanting to rip up the layout i went with adding keep alives to each install and get better performance accross the whole layout
Sorry Terry. Texas is a little far for me to drive to help out on this one. Unless I can get the wife to go there on vacation. Hmmmm....
C&O FanHowever i should mention over the years i've gone thru many cans of CRC and Emory boards Which works for a while till the arching causes loss of contact on the closure rail
Snip
unless you are using them to address other issues.
Actually the other side of my 12x10 two foot wide layout is a mirror image
of the gauntlet like you see in the video and at 73 and post stroke i'm done running drop wires and my neck won't take the pain of being under the layout looking up
Both Insul frog and electro frogs have dead spots its just that the dead spots in the electro frogs are much shorter so they are a better choice for ladder track arangements for short wheel arangements with out special arrangements like frog juicers
If you take a trip around the layout you will see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drSCZKt4ORY
The loco pushing the camera flat car is an 0-6-0
Notice there are no stalls
Keep alives are my way of solving my issue
and i believe thats the reason all the mfgs offer them TCS and Soundtraxx are plug in options ( Much easier than laying on your back under the layout) you have to solder Locsound to their board
thats why i only have one Locsound but 54 TCS and 12 Soundtraxx
If you have better luck with insulfrog thats great but i wouldn't recomend them for crossivers or ladder track (Yard ) arrangements
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Terry
I see where you are coming from. Perfect solution for you then. Like I said, it's easier to talk about adding feeders than it actually is to add them.
Happy Railroading!