I laid the mainline on the Miracle Mile about three months ago. Latexed the track, soldered feeders to every section, went great and ran exactly like i wanted it.
Then winter happened.
For those unaccustomed to Fraser Valley winters, they're usually not much to speak of. A few days below zero, maybe a dusting of snow that's gone in a day or two. Not this year; we're in the longest cold snap in thirty years. That means the heat's been running a lot more than usual and thus the humidity in the train room (which also houses the furnace) has dropped like a stone.
For those already shaking their heads, I'll sum up. I use hardboard spline subroadbed. I didn't gap a thing. The track all has to come up and be relaid. My question is, what's the target humidity in a train room? What should i be aiming to keep it at? 40%? 60%?
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
25% to 40%. Over 40% you'll get condensation, and possible freezing, in the inside of windows.
Also, throw in a humidifier and let it run a week or so before you decide anything needs redoing.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Stu:
Sorry about your predicament!
I spent a lot of my career selling windows and furnaces. That was a while ago so I can only relate what I learned about humidity way back then. However, I don't think the laws of physics have changed much in the last 20 years, but that also means that the situation hasn't gotten any simpler.
The ideal humidity target actually changes based on the outdoor temperature. As a general rule, if the outside temp is at the freezing point then the recommended indoor humidity is about 40%. That is the moisture level that will avoid excess condensation on the windows and other cool surfaces while keeping wood from shrinking too much. There will still be some shrinkage. If you go higher than 40% you are risking having condensation occur on any cooler surfaces such as window glass and frames, and worse, the foundation and attached framing. Condensation leads to mold with all the inherent health and wood rot issues.
However, when the outside temperature drops to -25F, the 40% humidity doesn't work anymore. At that temperature with 40% humidity you will have condensation issues on any cool surfaces like your windows. At -25F, the recommended humidity is about 25% to avoid mold problems. Obviously, at 25% things like your benchwork will start to dry out so you are faced with a dilemma.
If you want to keep the humidity at a higher level there are some things that you can do to reduce condensation. One is to keep your window coverings open so that the household air can circulate up against the cold surfaces. If you close your blinds you trap air between the blinds and the glass and that air gets colder and colder. There is nothing to keep the glass warm so condensation starts to form on the glass. Another thing that you can do if you have a forced air system is to keep the furnace fan running all the time. Many modern furnaces do that automatically. Keeping the fan running circulates the air in the house so that warmer air is constantly coming in contact with any cooler surfaces thereby warming them up and thus reducing condensation on the cold surfaces. At the same time the air flow is circulating the humidity to the things that need it like your furniture and your benchwork.
The real bottom line is to build your layout to allow for expansion and contraction. I won't go into the details. They have been discussed many times before.
I have probably raised more questions with this diatribe than I have given answers. Humidity is both your friend and your enemy! How's that for making my my point clear?
All the best everyone,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
At Boothbay Railway Village in Maine we had a couple of similar problems during or after the first winter after installing roadbed and track. The plywood subroadbed had some moisture in it. Our buiding has forced hot air heat, and Maine winters are colder and dryer than in BC. The dry heat pulled out moisture from the wood resulting in a number of kinks in the track which we had to repair. After that first winter, we have had no further problems.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
G PaineThe plywood subroadbed had some moisture in it.
That speaks to letting your building materials acclimatize to the enviornment that they will be used in. Anyone who has laid hardwood flooring will know (or wish they knew) that the flooring has to be stored in the environment in which it is to be installed for several weeks before actually installing the flooring. If you don't do that you will experience significant shrinkage with the resulting poor appearance and performance.
Sorry George, I'm not trying to be critical, but patience is a good thing when bringing any wood products indoors.
Regards,
I live on the Island, Comox, so I find that high humidity is a problem indoors unless you keep an eye on it. We never have to worry about more than temperatures in our house unless it gets below freezing, in which case we do get some condensate on the lower window panes. I lift the blinds when the furnace first kicks in in the morning so that air can circulate, and the condensate disappears soon.
Out in our unheated garage, part of which I properly partitioned with framing, poly, and batts of fiberglass insulation, I leave a dehumidifier on most of the year. When humidity stabilizes near 50%, I turn it off until I feel the humidity begin to climb as the weather warms. That is where it is currently, hovering within 3% of 50 for the past three weeks or more. Even when it rains, which it does almost incessantly during our PNW winters.
I have learned to purchase milled lumber, bring it home, stack it, put weights on it to try to keep it true, and let it dry either naturally or while using the dehumidifier (it's stored out on pallets where I get it). I wait at least three days before I begin to cut and measure...wait, I mean the other way around.
selector I live on the Island, Comox, so I find that high humidity is a problem indoors unless you keep an eye on it. We never have to worry about more than temperatures in our house unless it gets below freezing, in which case we do get some condensate on the lower window panes. I lift the blinds when the furnace first kicks in in the morning so that air can circulate, and the condensate disappears soon. Out in our unheated garage, part of which I properly partitioned with framing, poly, and batts of fiberglass insulation, I leave a dehumidifier on most of the year. When humidity stabilizes near 50%, I turn it off until I feel the humidity begin to climb as the weather warms. That is where it is currently, hovering within 3% of 50 for the past three weeks or more. Even when it rains, which it does almost incessantly during our PNW winters. I have learned to purchase milled lumber, bring it home, stack it, put weights on it to try to keep it true, and let it dry either naturally or while using the dehumidifier (it's stored out on pallets where I get it). I wait at least three days before I begin to cut and measure...wait, I mean the other way around.
Truth be told, i should have seen this coming. Our basement has always been a must farm, mostly due to an unvented bathroom. The fan we recently installed to vent shower vapours and processed taco fumes is almost certainly a contributing factor in the newfound bendy-twisties in the train room.
Sigh... Out comes the Great Wrecking Spackler from the Sky.
Am I to understand that you are venting a shower exhaust fan into your basement? That's a waste of a perfectly good fan. The excess humidity will get there all by itself without assistance, believe me! It's just like the suckers (pardon my english Steven) who have been sold clothes dryer vent valves that allow you to duct the heat (and the moisture) from the dryer back into your house. Sheer insanity, that is unless you like having your kids' noses running all the time and their eyes watering constantly too, and black splotches in the corners of your bedrooms. For those poor people, I have some swampland in Florida for sale cheap! (Rant, rant, rant.....!).
If I can suggest, the fan should be pumping the moist air outside the house. That's easy to say but there are a number of potential issues with doing that too. Best to check with a local HVAC contractor on what's best for your home.
Boy, I'm just full of good news tonight!
Cheers all!
hon30critter Stu: Am I to understand that you are venting a shower exhaust fan into your basement? That's a waste of a perfectly good fan. The excess humidity will get there all by itself without assistance, believe me! It's just like the suckers (pardon my english Steven) who have been sold clothes dryer vent valves that allow you to duct the moisture from the dryer back into your house. Sheer insanity, that is unless you like having your kids' noses running all the time and their eyes watering constantly too. For those poor people, I have some swampland in Florida for sale cheap! (Rant, rant, rant.....!). If I can suggest, the fan should be pumping the moist air outside the house. That's easy to say but there are a number of potential issues with doing that too. Best to check with a local HVAC contractor on what's best for your home. Boy, I'm just full of good news tonight! Cheers all! Dave
Am I to understand that you are venting a shower exhaust fan into your basement? That's a waste of a perfectly good fan. The excess humidity will get there all by itself without assistance, believe me! It's just like the suckers (pardon my english Steven) who have been sold clothes dryer vent valves that allow you to duct the moisture from the dryer back into your house. Sheer insanity, that is unless you like having your kids' noses running all the time and their eyes watering constantly too. For those poor people, I have some swampland in Florida for sale cheap! (Rant, rant, rant.....!).
No! No no no no no no no. Good lord, no. The fan is venting bathroom air to outside. That means the previously stale musty basement air in all its mold-growing silverfish-breeding glory is finally being properly gotten rid of. Likely that means the humidity drop in the basement -- from a previous sticky high -- is permanent. Also, i'm finally paying some attention to an environmental aspect that may impact trainy goodness more than i thought.
All i need to do now is rip out and relay about fifty feet of track, then find some way to stabilize the air in a musty basement. Whoopee.
ps: thanks to all for their help, of course!
RastafarrAm I to understand that you are venting a shower exhaust fan into your basement?
RastafarrNo! No no no no no no no. Good lord, no. The fan is venting bathroom air to outside.
Stu: I'm sorry for assuming the worst! My sincere apologies!! You have restored my faith in humanity!!!
Seriously, I am sorry for misreading your post.
hon30critter Rastafarr Am I to understand that you are venting a shower exhaust fan into your basement? Rastafarr No! No no no no no no no. Good lord, no. The fan is venting bathroom air to outside. Stu: I'm sorry for assuming the worst! My sincere apologies!! You have restored my faith in humanity!!! Seriously, I am sorry for misreading your post. Regards, Dave
Rastafarr Am I to understand that you are venting a shower exhaust fan into your basement?
Rastafarr No! No no no no no no no. Good lord, no. The fan is venting bathroom air to outside.
Ha! No, Dave, you don't need to worry. I was laughing as i wrote that post.
Dave, you've helped me and many others in this forum and i took that in the same spirit of well-meaning advice. All is good, my friend.
For my part, i think it will shortly be time to invest in a dehumidifier. The alternative is ripping everything out, properly sealing the concrete floor and walls, and starting from scratch. I haven't dismissed the idea, since my current layout a) is barely more than wires and lumber, b) has suffered repeated design revisions that have left it with an inaccessible staging level, and c) has serious access issues getting to one corner of the room, like a 60" reach at 50" inch floor height.
That leads to my next question. i know more than a few guys in here have torn it all down and started from scratch in the past. What was the tipping point on that? When were you sure you couldn't save the current layout and had to start fresh?
When I started layout construction I brought in a considerable supply of lumber, masonite and homasote, and thus most of it was able to be in the basement environment for a full cycle of the seasons (some of it for several such full cycles) before construction. I think that has helped.
Dave Nelson
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! First, control the humidity the most economical and durable way. When it stabilizes, wait a week. See what the tracks do. Where any kinks are still evident, take out the Dremel and cut a 16" gap with the cut-off disk. Do it again six feet further away on either side. Wait another day if you don't see an immediate improvement. You'll have to add a feeder pair there.
You may have to pry up some intractable kinks and re-lay the track there with new adhesive. At some point, you'll feel it's looking good and the trains are running well. I would not do wholesale dismantling, or tearing up long lengths of otherwise salvageable trackwork, if I didn't have to. Cutting in some relief does wonders.
selectortake out the Dremel and cut a 16" gap
A 16" gap will solve a lot of kinks but I think he meant 1/16". When my MR kinked I cut the thickness of the cut off disk of the dremel. I'm pretty sure I had to do it closer than every 6' but it was easy enough to do and rewire.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Rastafarr i think it will shortly be time to invest in a dehumidifier.
I think you meant 'humidifier'? If you install a de-humidifier your track will look like rotini pasta!
As others have suggested, try to get the humidity adjusted back to close to what it was before you get out the chainsaw. The track was happy then. Cut some gaps too to allow for easier movement.
I'm glad you have a good sense of humour!
Relaying track for me was worth it so that I could more effectively run brass steam power with ease. I ripped up part of my Kato tracked mainline this fall and relaid with new track to much larger radii of 34 and 36 inches.
As stated above I would just cut a few gaps...
hon30critter Rastafarr i think it will shortly be time to invest in a dehumidifier. I think you meant 'humidifier'? If you install a de-humidifier your track will look like rotini pasta! As others have suggested, try to get the humidity adjusted back to close to what it was before you get out the chainsaw. The track was happy then. Cut some gaps too to allow for easier movement. I'm glad you have a good sense of humour! Dave
Rich
Alton Junction
DrumguyAll that being said, if your track plan is sound, and your bench work solid, maybe all you need is some rail gaps. Spline subroadbed shouldn't expand/contract much. I live in Fargo (yes, that one , in North Dakota) and nobody knows short-term climate change like we do.
Speaking of cats, the LION lives in North Dakota. Layout of him is in a third floor classroom. Is Third layout of LION. First was built in a basement room, and was taken apart when that room was to be renovated. Him snagged a room above the Library, an old classroom, and him builded a complicated layout theat as him grew older him could not maintain anymore.
Him pulled that one out and built this new one. Three decks, 14 miles of track, and for normal operation only one double crossover is required. LION runs 10 trains at a time, fully automated operation. Little Plastic Motorman runs the trains, the LION runs the tower and dispatches trains from the 242nd Street Station. Trains leave the station every 3 minutes.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Very true, Rich. I think, however, the heavily used shower in the next room over is all the humidifier i'll ever need. Complement it with a dehumidifier for summer musk and i should be good to go.
Unfortunitly this is what happens when you use wood in any form to lay track on. Spline dose make nice transititions but is time consuming and prone to what happened. Thats why people use foam and in my opinion beaded foam is the best as you can buy 2" thick sheets of the stuff and if you measure it you can tell if it is aged so you can avoid the shrinkage.
Rastafarrthe heavily used shower in the next room over is all the humidifier i'll ever need.
Stu, I'm not so sure. If the shower generated humidity was sufficient to keep things from shrinking then you shouldn't have suffered such severe problems with your roadbed. At least, that's the theory. Keep in mind that all that moisture is being absorbed by every piece of wood in the house, including the house itself.
Do you happen to have a humidity meter? They aren't too expensive. The cheaper ones are only accurate to within 5% or so, but that really doesn't matter. What the meter will show you is the relative changes in humidity so you can see what's happening as the weather changes.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/hygrometer-0435203p.html
I suspect that you will need to do more than just one thing to solve your problem. I'm guessing that you will need to gap the track and adjust the humidity as well. The condition of your weatherstripping has a bearing on moisture levels too.
hon30critter Rastafarr the heavily used shower in the next room over is all the humidifier i'll ever need. Do you happen to have a humidity meter? They aren't too expensive. The cheaper ones are only accurate to within 5% or so, but that really doesn't matter. What the meter will show you is the relative changes in humidity so you can see what's happening as the weather changes.
Rastafarr the heavily used shower in the next room over is all the humidifier i'll ever need.
I use an AcuRite hygrometer which is highly rated, inexpensive, and highly accurate compared to other residential hygrometers.
https://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-00613-Indoor-Humidity-Monitor/dp/B0013BKDO8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484213474&sr=8-1&keywords=acurite+hygrometer
Hi,
I went thru a similar situation the first (SE Texas) "winter" after my track was in place. Woke up one morning to several nasty curves in tangent tracks.
This forum helped me out and a fix was suggested that took care of all but 3 of the problem areas.
I used a Dremel with a cut off disc and did a slice in the rails where they were warped out of shape. Man, most of them snapped right back into place with just one cut. A couple required two cuts, and as I recall, three of the areas needed a rebuild.
You might want to give this a try on any problem areas, as it will save you a lot of time and effort.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I can usually just fix problems with localized trackwork, but sometimes there's a whole stretch that needs to be redone. It may actually be quicker to re-do the whole thing than to try to fix a dozen small flaws. Track kinks leading to derailments take all the fun out of running trains. Don't be afraid to do the extra work if it means getting it right. "Good enough" isn't good enough for track work. It's got to be perfect.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Well, the chainsaw is running and i'm excited about it.
The current setup is done. The humidity headaches piled atop an unreachable corner and a non-accessible staging level have made me realize that it's time to refresh. Take it all out, properly soundproof, sheath, paint and get going with a completely new plan.
Thanks for the input, gentlemen. The curtain now comes down on layout number one. I can't wait for layout number two. Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy...
Have fun Stu!
Keep us posted.
My Kato Unitrack has survived a number of Minnesota summers and winters (-2F here last I checked) with no kinking or other weather-related issues. Just have to run a track-cleaning car around the layout once or twice a year....