My very (VERY) good friend has been kindly replacing my rolling stock's couplers with Kadees and weighting them to NMRA standards.
I was wondering if anyone here knows of particular brands of ready to run rolling stock, freight and passenger that already come properly weighted at least (!) and preferably ALSO with Kadees installed? I would definitely put them on my priority for purchase brands list. I've found Walthers proto, Athearn, Atlas, Roundhouse, and others all to be far too light and frankly, it's a pain in the neck, especially if you want to fill out an operations based roster quickly for new/additional crew, etc.
Aside from the joy of kit building, tweaking existing cars, etc. I think such a list would be very helpful for all of us if one even exists.
Thanks!
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
The list you want may not exist. Pretty much every piece of rolling stock is lighter than NMRA standards. And they all come with Kadee clone couplers. The clones are getting better, I don't replace the clones with real Kadee's, instead I run them til they break. A lot of the clones will last a long time.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Well, on my layout with lots of grades they almost all break eventually. Considering the amount of hidden track I have, I'm done with the clones-all brands.
I'm very surprised that considering manufacturer's willingness to follow most of the NMRA recommendations in other areas that the simple and dare I say obvious need for properly weighted cars, is not addressed.
If there is no "list" per se, individual poster's knowledge of individual brands/experiences with ready to run cars that are sold out of box, properly weighted, would be appreciated. I (and many of my fellow operator aquaintances) are "all ears". With the current popularity of prototype ops growing it could be a selling point.
When Ops is the largest focus of the hobby for some guys and gals, truly ready to run weighted cars can be an enormous time saver getting session going and continuing with sessions when other cars have to go to the car shop.
I'll get blasted for this - but I find the NMRA recommended weight to be of very little concern for most layouts. I pay almost no attention to it at all. From my experience a proper range of truck motion is of far greater importance. A car with trucks that work well can often track reliably even with no weight added. I have no tolerance for derailments or other poor operation, so I'm not saying this out of cavalier dismissal.
A car from any decent manufacturer should provide reliable service for an operating layout. Regardless of reviews mentioning whether or not they meet the recommended weight, current product from say, ExactRail, Tangent, Moloco, Intermountain, Red Caboose, or Walthers (except for Trainline) tend to be fine as-is, with nice machined wheels and metal couplers (Walthers Protomax couplers are Kadee #5 clones). Atlas and Athearn/Roundhouse are also good once you swap out the Accumate or McHenry couplers. Kadee cars of course have the right couplers but do come with Kadee's cast wheels that accumulate crud even if you polish them. Their newer cars with HGC plastic trucks can be re-equipped with machined wheels easily. The amount of work needed to swap out wheels and/or couplers is usually so trivial I don't consider it to be a bother.
I know you said RTR, but Accurail kits require very little time or effort in most cases. Their stock wheels and couplers are terrible, but the addition of Kadee couplers and metal wheels allows them to perform very well also. The one kit I have from Scale Trains required even less work, and performs great with Kadee couplers and the stock wheels.
My layout has over 400 cars. Of those from the above brands, I've added weight to only a very few. You can use them to build a relaibly performing roster without much worry about adjusting weight.
Rob Spangler
wp8thsubI'll get blasted for this - but I find the NMRA recommended weight to be of very little concern for most layouts. I pay almost no attention to it at all.
You won't get blasted from me, at least. I can not remember the last time I weighed a freight car— or passenger car for that matter.
I have some flat cars (maybe Bowser?) that feel awfully light to me (maybe I'll weigh them later just to satisfy my curiosity) and I have no problems with them even on the head-end of a sixty-car freight.
Trucks, couplers and wheel gauge are my primary focus for operational reliability, assuming your track is not contributing to the problem. One thing that annoys me more than insufficient weight are manufacturers that glue the draft gear boxes shut (Atlas is one of them).
As far as the manufacturers staying on the "light side" remember they have to pay to ship a container from China in many cases and every added ounce (times maybe ten or twenty-thousand units) can add up pretty quickly.
Have Fun, Ed
Weight or even Kadee couplers mean little, seen a lot of Kadees break too. Trackwork is the most important thing and next is wheels along with in gauge.
As long as you're somewhere in the ballpark enough to keep reasonably consistent weights, ops should be fine. The NMRA weight recommendations are from an earlier era where free rolling trucks were not as prevalent, etc. Nothing wrong with them for standard gauge if you're unwilling to assess things yourself.
In narrowgauge, that's pretty much ignored. If you weight to NMRA recs, you'll have difficulty getting a decent length train over typical grades found on the NG. Consider Blackstone, the cream of the crop when it comes to RTR HOn3 (OK, there's not much competition, but still good stuff). The NMRA calls for 2.25 oz, but the Blackstone 3000 series boxcar weighs just 1.75 oz. You will find no complaints about that of consequence. The little beauties run fine.
Keep in mind this is a Recommended Practice, not a Standard. There's a difference, but essentially it's a suggestion from experience and needs some updating to reflect the changes in materials and engineering from when the RP was defined circa 1960.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
IIRC, maybe two of the 'high end' manufacturers include Kadee couplers.
Walthers has a metal 'Proto Max' coupler, and Rapido has their 'Mcdonald-Cartier' metal couplers. Both seem to operate with no problems and I have not replaced them.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Other than flat cars, I don't bother to weight any of my rolling stock either. I do replace non-Kadee and non-metal wheelsets with Kadee #58s and Proto 2000 33" metal wheels - ribbed or non-ribbed.
As far as Kadee-equipped rolling stock is concerned: Kadee, Exactrail, and Tangent are the only three that I am aware of that come stock with Kadee couplers. And I believe the latter two come with the prototypical-sized versions.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageKadee, Exactrail, and Tangent are the only three that I am aware of that come stock with Kadee couplers.
Moloco uses "scale head" Kadee couplers. I only have one Broadway Limited car, which appears to have come with standard head Kadees. Red Caboose uses them too. I don't have any Bowser RTR cars, but I think they do as well.
rrebellseen a lot of Kadees break too
Really? Somebody must have dropped a car end down onto a concrete floor. I have never seen one break in 50 years.
Kadee cars now come with the scale head coupler, a fact I am not thrilled about. In fact, the coupler on the Kadee cars is a special shank they do not sell seperately for other applications. After Kadee made the change, they actually discontinued the regular head coupler that fits their cars - I stocked up......
I dislike the scale head couplers for several reasons, one, their smaller "gathering range", secondly, when coupling to regular head Kadees in particular, they require more "force" of impact to couple.
Since converting my whole fleet of 1000 freight cars to scale head couplers is simply not practical, I have choosen to stay with the standard head - operational considerations trump appearance for me.
All my cars get genuine Kadees, usually #48's these days, but I have some special applications that use various other Kadee versions.
Most of my freight cars get Kadee sprung trucks, refitted with Intermountain wheels - or the Kadee HGC trucks, also refitted with Intermountain wheels.
The metal trucks add just a little weight where it does the most good, and the equalization of the sprung trucks improves tracking.
Because I use mostly Atlas custom line turnouts, with a few Walthers, and a few scratch built ones, I also do not use code 88 wheels, only code 110 wheels for better tracking through turnout frogs.
I generally find it unnecessary to add any additional weight to most cars after installing my upgraded trucks - which by the way roll better than most any rigid frame truck - I tested a bunch of them.
Sheldon
wp8thsub but I find the NMRA recommended weight to be of very little concern for most layouts. I pay almost no attention to it at all
Cheers the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Bear:
I'm going to mail you a damp face cloth so you can put it on your forehead! I hope you have a speedy recovery!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
From memory, here are the current makes of HO trains that come RTR factory fitted with Kadee's:
BLMAIntermountainRed CabooseExact RailMolocoTangent
Walthers comes with their Proto metal Kadee clones, which appear to be a close knock off of the Kadee #5 and seem to perform nearly as well. I don't plan on replacing those unless they fail or break.
The major holdouts still are Athearn and Atlas of course; Atlas uses the clunky and crude looking Accumates and Athearn uses modified McHenry's, which look good but perform poorly. Recent examples of Athearn cars I have tested out-of-the box the couplers have a tendency of sticking in the open position for example.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Athearn, Atlas, Roundhouse and Proto/Walthers cars all come with weights attached if RTR, or included in kits. If the weights don't bring the car up to NMRA standards, they must be awfully close. In any case, in my experience, a car that is derailment-prone is more likely to have wheels out of gauge, or truck screws that are too tight (not allowing enough 'play'), or something like that as the culprit.
Also, if there a lot of cars having trouble staying on the track, it's more likely a track problem than a car problem.
BTW, now with Kadee's 'whisker' couplers, replacing couplers is very easy - unscrew the coupler box screw, remove the cover and the coupler that's in there, drop in the Kadee, put the cover back on, and screw it in place.
riogrande5761 Athearn uses modified McHenry's, which look good but perform poorly. Recent examples of Athearn cars I have tested out-of-the box the couplers have a tendency of sticking in the open position for example.
Athearn uses modified McHenry's, which look good but perform poorly. Recent examples of Athearn cars I have tested out-of-the box the couplers have a tendency of sticking in the open position for example.
This happened with both of the Athearn Railbox cars I bought at Trainfest. I've given up on McHenry couplers completely.
Anything I can replace with Kadees I do, but I'm still having trouble finding replacements for my Bachmann DDA40X.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
wp8thsub I'll get blasted for this - but I find the NMRA recommended weight to be of very little concern for most layouts. I pay almost no attention to it at all. From my experience a proper range of truck motion is of far greater importance. A car with trucks that work well can often track reliably even with no weight added.
I'll get blasted for this - but I find the NMRA recommended weight to be of very little concern for most layouts. I pay almost no attention to it at all. From my experience a proper range of truck motion is of far greater importance. A car with trucks that work well can often track reliably even with no weight added.
Generally, this is my orientation to the topic as well. The only cars I had fits with were two hand-made skeleton logging cars with sprung trucks. I couldn't keep either one of them on the rails, no matter how much weight I put on them, including my hands pressing down on them.
I have removed more weights from cars than I have added weights to them. In fact, I removed all the wiring apparatus from my 2004-era Walthers heavyweights, including the stack of four long hacksaw blade type weights bolted to the floors. They run just fine, including through a rather cruddy hand-made wye turnout I crafted on my last layout...shoved or trailed, and at very high speeds. These have diaphragms, too.
If your curves are not excessively tight, not excessively wavy in torsion due to inexpertly laid super-elevation and such, no kinks in azimuth or altitude, and if your rolling stock is in good order with couplers able to swing unfettered laterally, and the trucks all swivel easily fully in an arc, theres' no reason they shouldn't trail nicely. Shoving...that could be a problem, and we all learn that the lighter rolling stock shouldn't be placed close to the engine when trailing on tighter curves and on grades.
We're not really talking couplers, but McHenrys, Accurails and other knuckle couplers with plastic torsion springs have been abject failures on two large layouts I know -- they stick open when pushed by rear-end helpers. Kadees don't. Haven't tried the newer metal coil-spring clones. For light service on a small layout without grades, the demands are not as high.
Note that the newest style Kadee coupler box has a snap-together feature which makes them a lot easier to handle and install.
We have had Kadees break on our HO club layout, but it's generally a coupler that's been abused by someone holding needle-nose pliers. Unmolested, we have some running around that date to the dawn of the #5.
fieryturbo:
I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but Kadee has an on-line question/answer service which might be able to help you find the best couplers for your DDA40X:
https://kadee.com/htmbord/answer.htm
EDIT: See BMMEC's post below for the Kadee reference chart. I missed the DDA40X listing when I looked at the chart the first time.
Also, note his caution about the 'hot frame' especially if you are going to run consists.
Regarding weight I have found that in some cases with a particular car derailing where others don't extra weight has solved the problem.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
fieryturbo riogrande5761 Athearn uses modified McHenry's, which look good but perform poorly. Recent examples of Athearn cars I have tested out-of-the box the couplers have a tendency of sticking in the open position for example. This happened with both of the Athearn Railbox cars I bought at Trainfest. I've given up on McHenry couplers completely. Anything I can replace with Kadees I do, but I'm still having trouble finding replacements for my Bachmann DDA40X.
Have you tried a #38? or 148 or 158 in a 252 Gearbox.**
https://kadee.com/conv/hocc_bachmann_spectrum.htm
**Read note about using metal couplers in that locomotive apparently it has a hot frame.
To the OP:
I have found that Accurail cars are pretty close with no modifications. The 55 ton hopper is underweight empty with metal wheels and Sergent couplers, slightly underweight by a couple tenths of an oz, and for whatever reason a live load of coal (WS) you get exactly NMRA specified weight. WS ballast is heavier than coal so you end up with above NMRA weight.
Graham LineHaven't tried the newer metal coil-spring clones [e.g. McHenry]. For light service on a small layout without grades, the demands are not as high.
They fail too, just not necessarily through outright breakage. Use when switching eventually causes wear in the knuckles, and they start to wedge open or closed. At some point they become inoperable and require replacement.
I still have a replace-on-failure policy for McHenry and other plastic couplers with coil knuckle springs. I replace both ends with Kadees when one starts to become uncooperative. Normally a crew bad orders the car duing a session because it won't couple or uncouple properly.
Kadee or ProtoMax for me. (Kadee preferred, but ProtoMax tolerated.)
Accu-mates, McHenry's, and EZ-Mates get swapped out immediately upon purchase.
Weight I don't worry about, save for a set of old BB coal hopers I have... That are featherweights. These hoppers are severely underweight for some reason, so much so, I can do live coal loads in them, using scale sized coal, actual coal, and be just slightly over weight. The metal wheelsets and Kadee's
Just don't derail the live loads... And don't ask me if I know this from experience!
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I don't have a scale, so I don't worry about weight. So many cars still come with plastic wheels that I wonder if they were designed for metal wheels, and then the bean-counters' switch to plastic brought the cars under weight in the end.
In any case, I've been replacing all my plastic wheels with Intermountains, while another crew puts Kadees on the car ends. I just plan on this for everything, so it doesn't concern me what's on the car when I take it out of the box. It's going to be right when it goes on the track.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Actually, some of the older Athearn and Roundhouse plastic freight car kits would have originally come with metal trucks and wheels. Then they shifted to plastic trucks and wheels, now it seems plastic trucks with metal wheels is the norm. So ya, I never thought about it, but I suppose the metal trucks and wheels would have added to the overall weight and stability of the car - although the old metal trucks didn't roll anywhere near as well today's delrin plastic ones.
Keep in mind 40-50 years ago, most HO model railroads were running cars made from wood craftman's kits, which produced a very light car if no weight was added. For the time I've been in HO (since 1987), RTR cars and kits have pretty much all included weights or had cars with metal floors that made the car close if not within NMRA recommendations.
Derailments on the SIW are human errors not setting turnouts correctly. As for weight the only cars I really ran into serious weight issues were flat cars or well cars . For flat cars I glue weights underneath. For well cars I recomend Kato cars as they seem to run OK even empty. You could of course put weight in the containers and run them full.
Joe Staten Island West
I have several very light cars that either stringlined or otherwise derailed from time to time. Walther's Proto War Emergency Hoppers in partiular come to mind. Even when using skewers to decouple, they were so light and "flippy" with the lightest of finer touch/stabilizing that they were a pain to run sometimes.
I have plastic coupler breakage because I have several steep grades and repeated stalling or jerking of any kind over time breaks them, every time-eventually. I've also seen and had them break here and at other layouts from switch engines switching at too high of a speed (not talking anything Indy 500 here...), etc.
The issue with breakage on grades is the 200 mph runaways for a scale mile or more! With a lot of hidden trackage grades and operators occasionally running into something in hidden trackage-even lightly, Kadees/metal is the only way for me.
Rob, I was one of the operators on your layout in the most recent Great Basin Getaway (if you happened to remember my screen name)... and enjoyed myself greatly and learned tons!
Interesting and detailed posts. Thanks guys.