riogrande5761I've had to bend the coupler box up a bit too in some cases. Like most, I use the Kadee height gauge as my standard and try to make my rolling stock match it.
Jim,Like I said earlier BB kits required a lot of TLC before assembly. My SOP was simple.. Check frame and weight for warpage. Check truck frames for warpage.
Assemble floor,weight and frame. Install couplers, ensure the metal coupler box lid snaps into place add 2-56 screw to hold box lid add trucks and check with KD coupler gauge and NMRA gauge.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hello all,
Yes, there is an NMRA standard for coupler height.
Now, do the manufacturers always follow this standard. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
If you are an NMRA member and subscribe to their magazine you will see conformance reviews.
Among the criteria for a Pass is couplers (S-2 Coupler Standards).
At a recent train show I purchased a coil steel car; red with the road name of Santa Fe, ATSF 91915 with Accurail embossed on the bottom of the truck frames. This model was my find of the show. It is highly detailed and a great addition to my pike.
When I got it home and checked it against my Kadee coupler height gage the couplers were too low. Not low enough to warrant using underset couplers. I used fiber washers to bring it up to spec.
To be honest I hadn't considered swapping out the wheels from 33-inch to 36-inch to "adjust" the coupler height. That might be a better solution over the fiber washers.
That being said...I upgraded a DC RS11 with truck mounted couplers to DCC and body mounted the couplers. I could not raise the body so I used underset couplers to get the coupler height correct.
There also comes a point, with spacing washers, that the rolling stock becomes too top-heavy to negotiate curves and turnouts. In that instance I would use underset couplers rather than a large stack of spacing washers.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnitThere also comes a point, with spacing washers, that the rolling stock becomes too top-heavy to negotiate curves and turnouts. In that instance I would use underset couplers rather than a large stack of spacing washers. Hope this helps.
How many washers are you using? Needing to use a stack of washers boggles the mind.
One washer will do the job of getting the coupler to the correct height and I been using washers for 52 years and never found the need to use a stack nor have I had any top heavy issues..
BRAKIE jjdamnit There also comes a point, with spacing washers, that the rolling stock becomes too top-heavy to negotiate curves and turnouts. In that instance I would use underset couplers rather than a large stack of spacing washers. Hope this helps. One washer will do the job of getting the coupler to the correct height and I been using washers for 52 years and never found the need to use a stack nor have I had any top heavy issues..
jjdamnit There also comes a point, with spacing washers, that the rolling stock becomes too top-heavy to negotiate curves and turnouts. In that instance I would use underset couplers rather than a large stack of spacing washers. Hope this helps.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainThose little red washers are only .015" thick, so it is commonplace to need more than one of them.
Gotta call road apples on that. I never had to use more then one washer to get the correct coupler height even with the Roundhouse cars that lacks a king pin..A.KD 010" or a .015"washer does the job.
I started using KD couplers in '68 and been using a washer as needed to gain the correct coupler height and like I already mention never found the need for the over/undershank coupler or for using a stack of washers.
It just boggles my mind.
Gotta ask..What brand of car requires a stack of washers?
My feelings about the fiber washers is that if I need more than one of the thickest, it's more likely to make the trucks wobbly if you have to stack them up. If offset isn't sufficiently corrected by a washer, occasionally I've even bent the shank a tiny bit to get the coupler in line with the gauge or perhaps the coupler box - bending it up a little bit. Worst case scenario, use the offset shank coupler. Stack O washers - not in my vocab.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BRAKIE richhotrain Those little red washers are only .015" thick, so it is commonplace to need more than one of them.
richhotrain Those little red washers are only .015" thick, so it is commonplace to need more than one of them.
richhotrainOf course, I have to ask in return, if you only need one .015" washer to match coupler heights, why bother? Rich
Fair question. Because I want nothing less then 100% trouble free operation and a coupler that is .010" or .015" low can cause a break in two and that is highly unacceptable to me..
Why risk it when a simple .010" or a .015" washer will solve the problem?
BRAKIE richhotrain Of course, I have to ask in return, if you only need one .015" washer to match coupler heights, why bother? Rich Why risk it when a simple .010" or a .015" washer will solve the problem?
richhotrain Of course, I have to ask in return, if you only need one .015" washer to match coupler heights, why bother? Rich
But, for vertical mismatches, the variance is going to be noticeable as it approaches .050", and that is why Kadee makes the underset and overset couplers.
Rich,That .010" or .015" is noticeable to the KD coupler gauge and can cause break in twos and trip pin snags and therefore is unacceptable..
Coupler droop that Athearn BB engines is noted for is best fixed by a KD coupler box mounted on the coupler pad attached by a 2-56.
Should I have a car that requires more then 1 washer I will find a workable solution and the over/undershank will not fit in the equation.
I suppose I always be a stickler for uniformity and reliable operation in my couplers and that dates back to my X2F coupler days.
Rich; I've had to stack the red washers, have two on a few of my cars. Will go to the underset if two won't get the job done. Underset also usefull on snap in truck attachments that end up being low.
Larry,
That's my point...
BRAKIENeeding to use a stack of washers boggles the mind.
According to Sam at Kadee the difference between their 33" and the 36" wheels (scale) is 0.027" (actual).
If you have to use more than two Red (0.015") or three Gray (0.010") then it's time to look at other possible problmems: coupler droop, wheel size or underset couplers.
On the car I'm talking about it took two Red (0.015") washers per truck to raise the car 0.030" just slightly more than the difference between the two wheel sizes.
As I mentioned in my previous post I hadn't considered swapping out the 33" wheels for 36".
Doing the wheel swap would mean that I don't need the spacing washers and make the 100-ton trucks more prototypical.
I'm considering the wheel swap option over the washers. Next time I'm at my LHS or place an order through Kadee I'll get the 36" wheels until then, the two washers per truck will do the trick.
jjdamnitIf you have to use more than two Red (0.015") or three Gray (0.010") then it's time to look at other possible problmems: coupler droop, wheel size or underset couplers.
So far I never had to use more then one washer I have had a coupler droop due to a warp Athearn frame that was to bad to straighten into place but,that was fixable with a new frame-remember when a well stock hobby shop carried Athearn parts?
Again since 1968 I have never found the need to use a over/undershank coupler or more then one washer.
Maybe I did much better in Model Railroading Basics 101-class of the 50/60s when Yankee engineering was needed then I thought?
Even my X2F couplers was capable of "kiss" coupling.
FWIW, the coupler height on almost all of my Athearn BB cars was corrected with the use of a single washer of either thickness. Usually both ends of the car required adjustment. Sometimes two washers were needed, commonly a red and a gray, but occassionally two reds were required. I have only had to use three washers on one end of a couple of cars, and I should probably have taken the hint to look for other problems before stacking the washers.
Personally, I can clearly see the difference in height made by either thickness of washer. I will install a single .010" washer if needed to get the coupler to the right height. I have a Kadee coupler height gauge mounted on a piece of track which is in turn mounted on a small piece of 3/4" plywood. I can pick the whole thing up and hold it at eye level so differences in coupler height are quite easy to see.
As I mentioned previously I also check to see that the coupler box is sitting properly up against the weight. If it isn't, I will glue it in place. I make sure the coupler has minimal up and down movement. The trip pin is also adjusted as needed too.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I also checked in with Sam The Answer Man this morning with this question.
Can you explain when it is appropriate to use the red fiber washers versus underset or overset couplers?His answer:Each underset and overset coupler raises or lowers the coupler about .050" higher or lower than a centerset coupler. I don't like to use fiber washers to raise the body more than .020" because it causes the body to teeter too much.
Sam ClarkeKadee Quality Products
richhotrainThose little red washers are only .015" thick, so it is commonplace to need more than one of them. The overset and underset couplers raise or lower knuckle height .050'", more than 3 times the thickness of the washer. Rich
richhotrain Larry, my point is that .010" or .015" variance is too insignificant to matter. Most of us wouldn't even be able to see such a slight variance to correct it - - - unless the coupler were ever so slightly drooping, the true purpose of the washer. But, for vertical mismatches, the variance is going to be noticeable as it approaches .050", and that is why Kadee makes the underset and overset couplers. Rich
Larry, my point is that .010" or .015" variance is too insignificant to matter. Most of us wouldn't even be able to see such a slight variance to correct it - - - unless the coupler were ever so slightly drooping, the true purpose of the washer.
Here is the thing, by itself, maybe it isn't significant, but say you've got another coupler off by that much or more the other direction; yes, problem gets bigger then. Personally I try to get my couplers all as close as possible to the Kadee gauge to that mismatches don't compound.
Think we are talking two situations, Larry has never had to use more than one washer, thus his experience has been different than some of us that have had to use two(or more) to get the height right, or have had to use underset couplers on the really wild ones. Larry has indead been fortunate not to have had the need for more than one, I on the other hand have had to use two on occasion and the undersets on about 12 of my of my 175 odd cars. I shop at shows for bargains and sometimes get a variety of coupler attachment designs, thus the need to increase my fixes for coupler height.
jjdamnit At a recent train show I purchased a coil steel car; red with the road name of Santa Fe, ATSF 91915 with Accurail embossed on the bottom of the truck frames. This model was my find of the show. It is highly detailed and a great addition to my pike. When I got it home and checked it against my Kadee coupler height gage the couplers were too low. Not low enough to warrant using underset couplers. I used fiber washers to bring it up to spec. To be honest I hadn't considered swapping out the wheels from 33-inch to 36-inch to "adjust" the coupler height. That might be a better solution over the fiber washers.
Check the dimensional data. If it's a 100 ton car or more it should definitely have 36" wheels, which will raise the coupler and also change the look of the car more than you would expect.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
riogrande5761Personally I try to get my couplers all as close as possible to the Kadee gauge to that mismatches don't compound.
Jim,I want my couplers spot on and I'm a stickler for that since that is part of trouble free operation and as you may recall that is my #1 goal and I won't settle for less..
My collection of Atlas,Walthers,Athearn RTR cars,ExactRail,Red Caboose,Intermountain,FVM and BLMA was spot on when I checked them against the KD coupler gauge. Even my lone Bachmann AFC 50' boxcar was spot on.
My slow on going project is installing 119s or if needed the 118s on my Atlas and Walthers tank cars.
Sam apparently uses the.010" and the .015" washers for raising the car up to .020" and the funny couplers for anything over .020".
I would find a better solution if any of my cars was over .020" including dropping from 36" wheels to 33" wheels but,only as a extreme last solution and I do mean last as in every coupler trick I know fails..
BRAKIE Sam apparently uses the.010" and the .015" washers for raising the car up to .020" and the funny couplers for anything over .020". I would find a better solution if any of my cars was over .020" including dropping from 36" wheels to 33" wheels but,only as a extreme last solution and I do mean last as in every coupler trick I know fails..
If it were me, I could see a car riding too low on the rails before I would notice that offset coupler.
richhotrain BRAKIE Sam apparently uses the.010" and the .015" washers for raising the car up to .020" and the funny couplers for anything over .020". I would find a better solution if any of my cars was over .020" including dropping from 36" wheels to 33" wheels but,only as a extreme last solution and I do mean last as in every coupler trick I know fails.. What would you notice less? What would you notice more? A non-center shank coupler or 33" wheels on a car that calls for 36" wheels? If it were me, I could see a car riding too low on the rails before I would notice that offset coupler. Rich
What would you notice less? What would you notice more? A non-center shank coupler or 33" wheels on a car that calls for 36" wheels?
Rich,As I mention dropping from 36" to 33" wheels would be my last solution. I would more then likely remove the cast on coupler box and use the KD box and yes,that can and does help on correcting the coupler height..
I've seen cars with the over/undershank coupler and those couplers stuck out like a bandage thumb.My guess is the majority of the modelers I've met over the years wouldn't notice a car riding a scale 3" to low-they never notice the Athearn BB cars being a foot to wide and a tad to short..Some may not know the difference in cars requiring 36" wheels from those that don't.
richhotrain What would you notice less? What would you notice more? A non-center shank coupler or 33" wheels on a car that calls for 36" wheels? If it were me, I could see a car riding too low on the rails before I would notice that offset coupler. Rich
For me, the question of reliability and avoiding false uncouples is more noticable than incorrect wheelsize. I think many people wouldn't know any different if they didn't know what a freight car was supposed to have based on weight etc. I try to have both as much as a I can.