Hi, As a newbie can anyone offer me some advice...
My brother gave me a HO Bachmann S4 for Chrimbo, problem is i've not done any modelling for over 30 years and then it was local British stuff. Looks like standards have improved tremedously in models since i was a lad...
I'm now hoping to build a smallish switching (that' s shunting to me) layout but need alot of help on what cars to go with the Erie S4. Not knowing anything about US railroads can anyone advise which makes are good quality and what to avoid, do I have to keep local with boxcars or did other railroad companies venture far and wide.
I'm aiming for 1960s period or can I stretch it to early 70s if I heavily weather the loco?
Many thanks
First, welcome to the forum and welcome back to model railroading. US railroads have a long history of freight car interchange to facilitate cross-continent transfer of freight regardless of the actual ownership of each freight car. In the era you want to model (my childhood years), freight trains typically included cars from dozens of different railroads. Thus, if you like the looks of a particular freight car model and it fits your era, go for it!
Hornblower
Welcome back. It is a steep learning curve, especially with the electrical developments in the hobby. I'm getting back in myself
Modeling another country's railroad is even more challenging if you've never been here. Our diversity is matched by our railroads and you can do pretty much whatever you want, except mix Euro and US motive power. As far as I recall, steam was gone by the 60's on all the major railroads.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Check out this website
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ <the full website
Here is a section on the Erie Railroad/Delaware Lackawana and Western (DL&W) which merged to form the Erie Lackawana Railroad. There are 2 photos of Erie S-4s in service in 1970/1971. It appears that the locomotive was not repainted after the merger.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/s.html
Another good source is
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/
The S4 was a switcher, built between 1949 and 1957, that worked yards rather than the mainline.
The Erie Railroad stretched from New York to Chicago, so it would be more than likely that its switchers handled freight cars from most major roads, even those as far away as the West Coast.
Rich
Alton Junction
Scouse alco, things have changed. When I got back I got back into the hobby I was amazed at how much had changed since the days of Triangle Hornby.
The Bachmann brand can be hit or miss and generally considered just above entry level stuff. Their Spectrum line of steam locos are good and diesels ok.
You won't go wrong with Athearn, Atlas, Walthers Proto, but fair warning it gets expensive quick.
ScouseAlcoI'm aiming for 1960s period or can I stretch it to early 70s if I heavily weather the loco?
Using the S4 to model the 70s may be streching it a bit. It would depend on when the Erie bought the loco and how much use it had. A switcher that old could well have been sold off or scrapped by that timeframe and be replaced by a newer model.
Early 60s is certainly doable from a prototype standpoint. The 2 big railroads in the East at that time were New York Central and Pennsylvania RR, so anythere in the Erie system there would be a lot of their rolling stock.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Welcome back to the hobby!
You're probably pretty safe running your engine into the mid-Sized in its original paint, but by the late Sixties I think EL had repainted all (or almost all) its switchers. Then again, if you're not worried about the prototype police coming to your home to make sure "everything is modeled as it was in reality," then don't worry about it.
As has been said, things can quickly become expensive, with MSRP's for some freight cars over $40 apiece nowadays. But, with eBay and mail order available for filling out your fleet, your costs may be somewhat mitigated.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Nobody has mentioned clearly the merger of the Erie with the Delaware Lackawanna and Western in October 1960 to form the Erie Lackawanna Railroad.
From the photos linked above, it appears that some of the S-4s continued to operate into the 1970s in their original paint and still lettered "Erie" but with the Erie logo painted over in the body colour (black).
And I'd agree that Bachmann current locomotives such as the Alco switchers are good quality if not the most detailed.
Some of their freight cars are good while others are still toy-like. But the separate sale freight cars in the "Silver Series" with metal wheels and axles run very well and are relatively inexpensive, even in the UK.
M636C
Having grown up along the Deleware Division of the Erie/Erie Lackawanna in the 50's and 60', I can tell you that most, but not all, of the Erie paint had been converted over to the post-merger paint scheme (gray, maroon and yellow). This was especially true of the older power, such as the Also S4's, as well as other older power (EMD, Baldwin., etc). Many of these older units retained their Erie paint schemes on into the 70's, probably in anticipation of either selling them off or scrapping them.
The 60's were a tumultuous time for the Erie. They were on the verge of bankruptcy and were desperate for some kind of relief. Management considered a merger the best option; they even made overtures to several other railroads, including the Norfolk and Western, only to be turned down. The merger with the DL&W probably was not the best move, as they too were not in very good shape financially. The closing down of the coal mines in northeastern Pennsylvania in the mid 70's was probably the straw that broke the camel's back for the DL.
As for rolling stock, you can use anything that was on American rails during that time, or even Canadian roads.
One thing that did change in your time frame is "roof walks" on railroad cars. The were banned starting in 1968 and were basically all gone by 1978.
From a modeling perspective, that's also when freight cars started to get longer. The Transition Era's 40-foot boxcars began to disappear. From the standpoint of a small layout, there are advantages to modeling the shorter cars, as they are more tolerant of tight-radius curves.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply and give me a much better insight into Erie, North American railroads and modelling too. Looks like I've got some research to do but at least i am begining to know where to look:-)
The photos of Erie S4s still in original colours so long after the merger, and still looking reasonable gives me a longer time frame to model. Fascinating to know that roof walks lasted so long considering the hazards. when did 60' boxcars start getting introduced?
Regarding modelling frieght cars, its great to know that just about anything goes. One of the reasons why I am keen to model North American scene is because of my love of diesels rather than steam (I suppose its what you grow up with) and in the UK most pick up goods all but ended not long after dieselisation.
Interesting to hear about the views on the quality of models. Do i need to beware of older Althearn/Atlas/Walthers etc or have their quality always been good? There is suprisingly plenty of American outline stuff on e-bay in the UK, some of it quite cheap but i am a bit careful at the mo as i dont want to start picking up cars if they are little more than toys (such as what was being made in the UK in the 70s, early 80s) so would really appreciate some tips on what to look for. I am lucky that i live quite close to Hattons www.hattons.co.uk/ a well known and long standing model shop.
Thanks again for you help and the friendly welcome.
Cheers
Mike
It's true that a few Erie locos remained in the old livery for a long time, but they were very few. Most were given some form of Erie Lackawanna livery within a few years after the Erie merged with the Delaware Lackawanna & Western (a.k.a. "Lackawanna") in October, 1960. You could probably justify a mid-1960's layout with some Erie, some DL&W, and some E-L equipment, but it would be a stretch to go much later than that.
Of course, Erie would be the most common single railroad represented. Freight cars were freely interchanged, but the more distant RR's were less likely to be represented than the near neighbors. The Pennsylvania RR had the largest freight car fleet in the country and interchanged with the Erie at several points, so PRR cars would be naturals. Other near neighbors with large freight car fleets were the New York Central and Baltimore and Ohio. Near neighbors with somewhat smaller fleets were the Nickel Plate Road, Lackawanna, and Lehigh Valley. Erie was a natural route for traffic from New England area railroads such as New Haven and Boston & Maine. Cars from all the big Western Railroads showed up on the Erie at times, but I seem to recall seeing Santa Fe being better represented than others. Cars from the Canadian Pacific and Canadian National also appeared. Incidentally, the PRR, NYC, and New Haven were all merged into the new Penn Central RR on February 1, 1968.
Tom
I do know one Erie painted Alco switcher lasted into Conrail. Any time the business train was due through the area this engine would be hid behind freight cars in the yard until the brass went through.
This story was told to me by a retired E-L/Conrail conductor and had several photos to back that story.When this unit went to the scrap line in Akron it was still wearing its proud Erie colors.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hi Scouse as soon as I saw your handle I knew you were from UK. I also am from UK but further north! Like yourself I am building a switching layout (we don't have the same space as our American cousins). Regards as what to run there is a theory regards the ratio of RR wagons in a particular area that is 70:20:10 that is 70% local RRs 20% nearby and 10% far traveled.There are plenty of options on EBay to purchase good quality wagons from most of the RR's in the NE of USA where the Erie was based. I have found that people on this forum are more than willing to help. Best of luck in your endeavours.
cambus267Regards as what to run there is a theory regards the ratio of RR wagons in a particular area that is 70:20:10 that is 70% local RRs 20% nearby and 10% far traveled.
Don't bet the farm.. Even back in the steam era coal train from a different railroad could be seen as well as PFE trains.
A more realistic percentage would be 60/40.. Recall there was no Interstates back then and long distance trucking industry was still in its infancy. Even in the 60/70s it would be the same percentage.
You really have to study the area you are modeling to know the car types and roads involved. It varies so much. As for what part of the Erie, well lets start with the space you have avaliable. Then those familiar with the routecan give you a better idea where . to look.
There are a few railroads that still run an.all alco roster today. DLW in scranton pa is one. Another is the arkansas and missouri. So look aroundfirst as a short line or something might catch youreye other than the late 60's erie. there is a lot ofvariablility in us railroads that british doesnt have.
Freight cars. Ebay is good of you have done the homework. To many list the old toy lifelikestuff. As the lifelikeproto 2000 line. àlso the tyco carswhich are also toys are sold as rare and way over priced. Best advice. Look throug the manufactures lke walthers and exact rail and learn about the prices and the cars so when you go buying, you wont get caught with cheap junk passed off as good. You can always ask one of us first to look at it to make sure.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Hi Guys,
Cheers to everyone for getting back to me with more advice. the wealth of knowledge is amazing. I spent most of last night reading up on the theory behind %s of frieghtcars a layout should have... something i have never heard of in British modelling, certainly in the era that i used to do were the choice would be either Bauite red or grey with rusty scabs!
Unfortunately like Cambus said, we dont seem to have the space that some of you chaps do, looking at various 'small' layout trackplans only a handful would fit into my tiny house... However I'm currently about to re-build an out 'brick out-building' which will give me about 14' x 6' to have a 'L' or 'J' shaped layout (I also need to squeeze an office desk and chair in as it will also become my office to work in when i'm not getting distracted).
The only reason why I chose the Erie was 'coz thats the colours that the S4 is in and seems a shame to repaint it. Probably looking at a free-lance location, preferably downtown urban, possibly port/dock warehousing sort of thing? Plenty of switching rather than 'mainline' workings. Its going take a couple of months to do the building work so no great rush yet with finalising trackplans etc.
Regarding Frieght cars, there are quite a lot of Athearn kits, such as this Athearn Trains HO model kit 5462 57 FOOT REEFER Santa Fe box on e-bay... seem cheap in price but what is the quality like? (hopefully wont be bidding against you Cambus)
Also seen some Accurail/Atlas RTR, which whilst more expensive look much better to the untrained eye...
Cheers for now.
Couple the Erie S-4 behind an 2 Athearn 40' Boxcars, an Athearn 50' Gondola, an Athearn PS2-2003 Hopper, and a Roundhouse "Blind End Caboose".
You now have yourself a mini branchline train.
OP can build a 14 x 6 around the room layout. No need for a J shape. Office furniture fits nicely under 48 inch high layout shelves, since a desk is only 30 inches tall. It also leaves room for storage on the desk, probably even a monitor. 18 inch deep shelves will provide plenty of elbow room too. Only a liftout section that will be needed to enter the room will be the complex part.
If you settle on freelancing, there is no need to worry about the paint scheme. Just use a curved bladed hobby knife to gently scrape off the ERIE herald and lettering. Touching up with black dabs of paint where needed, or even a fine Sharpie pen, should be a sinch.
When buying rolling stock, look at how fine the little grab iron ladders and foot stirrups are. The finer they are, the more expensive the model. Your reefer looks nice. Also do research to ensure you do not buy rolling stock that is earlier or past your era, if you care about being that precise. You can generally keep your purchases in line with your era by checking the build date on the side of the model...blt- or bld- or NEW- should be in the fine lettering somewhere on the side of all rolling stock, including your reefer.
- Douglas
ScouseAlcoRegarding Frieght cars, there are quite a lot of Athearn kits, such as this Athearn Trains HO model kit 5462 57 FOOT REEFER Santa Fe box on e-bay... seem cheap in price but what is the quality like?
Athearn in an old name in US Model Railroading. They still exist today making good quality products. The kits are no longer made. The "blue boxes" are easy to build "shake the box" kits. They are considered good, but not up to the latest standards in detail and somewhat generic in that many are not a truly accurate representation of any particular protoype manufactures car (although most are close). Even today they are the majority of cars on many layouts. One aspect of the hobby, that some enjoy, is detailing equipment. Athearns have been the starting point for many accurate well detailed models.
One thing to consider is couplers. I am not familar with their newer kits (I switched to N scale before 1970, and didn't buy any Athearn kits after the mid 1980's) but know the older ones came with X2F couplers. You will want to equip everything with Kadee couplers. The Athearn cars are easy to convert.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
DoughlessIf you settle on freelancing, there is no need to worry about the paint scheme. Just use a curved bladed hobby knife to gently scrape off the ERIE herald and lettering.
Or the short line could paint one of their locomotives in Erie colors much like SMS PRR Baldwin switcher..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3BkXcumqIg
Thanks guys... I'll get one to see what they actually like. Regarding couplers, been reading up on Kadee but can I have experienced views on which to go for. cheers Mike
interesting idea but if I go for a continuous run set at 48" high boards will mean that they will cross the window aperture and block out the light so I have to stick to an end to end layout which is no issue as that's the type of operation that interests me the most.
Im really enjoying the research side... although plenty of opportunity to go off on a tangent! Regarding the lettering on the side of cars... What do the rest mean? I assume that in addition to the build date it includes the unladen weight and capacity?
Thanks again