issue with kadees

[UNCLEBUTCH]

  I have a HO layout, all kadee coulpers,[ i think; Igo by the tiny spring on the side]

All checked with kadee gauge. Delayed mags. I don,t have the tool to set these, go by eye, level with top of rail, center of track.

About 70% of cars work just like they should. The rest don't, some even hard to uncoulpe with hand held tool.

I can not see the problem, What should I be looking at or for?

Any suggestions?

thanks

uncle butch

[dinwitty]

having worked all the club cars with kadees, I've seen it all. It maybe time for some maintenance, we had a test track made with coupler height and an uncoupluing ramp so work can be done at the bench. You will need to start checking your cars, better check your good ones anyways and eliminate them. Look for the bad couplers take them out, take the box off if possible, take the reverse end of a small drill bit, and polish the insides of the Kadee box and the shaft of the coupler, top and bottom, check for proper pin height. The Kadee box has a slight angled bit on the bottom plate to help encourage the couplers to -delay-. I do not use greasem, I have had to clean out old grease in the couplers. While you are at it, check your trucks for rollability, rotation, tweak/oil as needed. Look for dirt buildup on the treads, clean off if found, I've seen dirt so thick the flanges were useless-derailing. I have my own equipment getting slowly into the operating mode, and I have to do the same thing.

[BroadwayLion]

A little puff of graphite ought to take care of it. (I thought they called their graphite Grese em, but who knows. a good dry graphite perhaps from a lock smith's shop should work. 

Other than that, you could emulate the august LION and replace all of your couplers with draw bars. : )

 

ROARING

[maxman]

UNCLEBUTCH

I have a HO layout, all kadee coulpers,[ i think; Igo by the tiny spring on the side]

A tiny spring on the side does not necessarily a Kadee coupler make.

Unless you have installed all the couplers yourself, you may have something else.  Most ready to run cars that come with couplers that have that spring have Kadee look-alikes.

[CGW121]

Also Kadee makes a smaller head coupler, more prototype size. If you have the two types they are problematic both coupling and uncoupling.

[mlehman]

maxman

A tiny spring on the side does not necessarily a Kadee coupler make. Unless you have installed all the couplers yourself, you may have something else.

A good point.

Also, nearly all Kadees are metal, with the exception of the HOn3 714 and the similar standard gauge old-timey ones (#4??). AFAIK, all the ones with the side spring are metal.

There are a few non-Kadees that are metal (Walthers has one, maybe some others?) but most are plastic. OK to get you going, but almost always a problem at some point in the future.

A general tip on getting Kadees freed up...check the tightness of the screw holding the box lid on and the couplers together. Just a bit too tight and you'll have problems as the OP describes. If the centering swing doesn't work well, gently back off the screw until you see the coupler "release" and center and you're usually good.

[SouthPenn]

I have a few RTR coal cars that were giving me fits, mostly derailments. I tried everything I could think of as far as the trucks, wheels, and car weight were concerned. In desparation I removed the Kadee look-a-likes, complete with the small spring, and installed real Kadees. Problems fixed.

Any more RTR cars that I buy will get Kadees before they touch the rails.

[kasskaboose]

UNCLE:  Sorry to read about your issue.  I replaced most of mine with Kadee couplers for uniformity and possibly reliability.

ALL: Was I wrong to think that Kadee couplers work with other knuckle couplers found on Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, etc?  Perhaps your issue is a sign to replace any such couplers with Kadee. 

[dknelson]

kasskaboose

ALL: Was I wrong to think that Kadee couplers work with other knuckle couplers found on Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, etc?  Perhaps your issue is a sign to replace any such couplers with Kadee. 

 

No. Those other makes are often referred to as "Kadee clones" (and became available when certain Kadee patents expired) - they should mate with Kadees and with each other ok.  They tend not to be as reliable or as durable.  And saying they "mate" with Kadees is not the same as saying they all respond equally well to the between tracks (or under-tie electric) magnets.  My hunch is that when developing those Kadee clones they were not very concerned with how well the coupler would respond to a Kadee magnet (modest evidence of that is that I am not aware of any clone maker that sells the magnets). 

 

There is a make known as Saergent (spelling?) which is a very high quality and nice looking knuckle coupler that some high end modelers like very much but it either does not mate with Kadees or mates only with difficulty. 

 

Does the knuckle easily flick back and forth when moved?  Sometimes a bit of gunk gets in the tiny spring to the side of the standard Kadee and Kadee clone, particularly if the coupler was installed and not protected when the car was painted or weathered.  The knuckle needs to be able to move freely.  The powdered graphite that Kadee sells is useful for freeing up a slightly stuck knuckle.  You say the couplers do not uncouple even using mechanical means to move the "hoses" or twist between the knuckles (often called the "swizzle stick" method).   This suggests it is the knuckle and not the shaft at fault.

 

This may sound stupid but sometimes that little spring goes missing and the coupler doesn't work at all.

 

As mentioned above, sometimes the draft gear box is too tight and the coupler shaft cannot move readily.  That could also affect magnetic and particularly delayed action uncoupling.

 

Some guys install Kadees but neglect the instructions about burnishing the shaft to make it slick (as also mentioned above - the suggestion about using the smooth end of a drill bit althought the smooth shaft of a screw driver also works.  If your Kadees were installed by others they might have neglected this step but it pays to follow the Kadee instructions. 

 

I have two Kadee coupler height gauges because I have a test track on a wood base for in-progress and completed cars.  The wood is marked with the number of ounces the car should weigh according to NMRA standards and the height gauges at either end test the car before final completion.  A slot in the wood holds an NMRA gauge for testing wheels and flanges.  The test track also helps to see if the car wobbles, although often only actual layout service tells the whole story.

 

Your posting makes me think I should also install magnets on that test track to test for delayed action ability before releasing the car to the layout.

 

While I doubt if your lack of a Kadee magnet height gauge is the problem, all things being equal, I'd buy one if magnetic uncoupling is important to you. 

 

Dave Nelson

 

[mlehman]

dknelson

And saying they "mate" with Kadees is not the same as saying they all respond equally well to the between tracks (or under-tie electric) magnets. My hunch is that when developing those Kadee clones they were not very concerned with how well the coupler would respond to a Kadee magnet (modest evidence of that is that I am not aware of any clone maker that sells the magnets).

Yeah, if you plan to use the magnets, etc rather than manual uncoupling, I think Dave's point here is a good one to keep in mind. The whole whan's off uncpupling thing, at least at the state of the art, is a bit fussy to begin with. I really doubt that anyone other than Kadee worries about it, as you'll find very few others offer the mean to uncouple, only the couplers.

The Sergent is neat, but not a solution here. In addition to manual uncoupling (with a wand, usually), they also require the operator to manually center them to couple. You really have to have everything in easy reach to make that work, so a layout designed to take advanatge of remote uncoupling may be a bit of a stretch to run with Sergents.

Personally, I tried remote uncoupling just enough to know that for me that it's not worth the effort spent in regorously maintained the equipment to the standards necessary to make it work reliably.

I do use the delayed/set coupler feature on Kadees to push cars into sidings beyond easy reach, which allows the loco to pull away from a car once it's pushed into place. So long as these moves are all pushes and level to somewhat uphill to get to the drop location, this gives you 75% of the advantages of remote uncoupling with 0% of the extra effort otherwise required. YMMV

[Ron High]

For the couplers that are giving you trouble it would definitely be worth it to remove them to burnish the shaft and the face of the knuckle where you can see a mould parting line .If that line is rough even a fine file is a good idea. You do need the height gauge to check clearance. As far as coupler height I have found some frames like Athearn blue box are not firmly attached to the underbody floor. ,they flex up and down a little depending on how many cars are pulled or pushed.They may check out with a guage but they can move when in a train .You may have to attach the top of the coupler box to the underside of the floor with glue or screws. this will maintain a constant coupler height.

Ron High

[Southgate]

Even the really old Kadee couplers are not as good as the newer ones. If the coupler itself has a shiny finish on them all over, they are of a later period. If they have a dull flat finish, (even when new) they are older. Those older ones don't perform like the later shiney ones.

Also, on #5 type Kadees with the bronze centering spring, (inside the draft gear box) if it gets damaged, it's toast.

Now, when I go to replace a Kadee, I use the "whisker" type, preferably in their own draft box. On my layout, those just work every time. No graphite needed.

[BigDaddy]

My rail cars were carefully wrapped and put away 15 years ago.  Two thirds of them (all Kadee 5's) no longer return the couple to the center when pushed to the side.  The spring box looks ok but lost it's mojo over the years.

[RogerThat]

I'm currently in the process of updating some of my older cars to Kadee #5s. However, I think I mixed my Kadee's with a bunch of Kadee clones I had previously removed. From my old eyesight perspective, they all look very much alike. Is there any distinguishing feature that makes the Kadee's stand out. I have used a VOM to seperate the metal shanks from the plastic ones.

Also, I'm getting ready to place an order for some 2-56 screws. I can get a pack of 100 1/4" pan head ones for around $8.00 from Amazon. Do these bulk screws work well or should I stick to more expensive ones from Kadee or other Model Railroad shops?

 

[UNCLEBUTCH]

 Yeah,what he said, I'm now convienced i'm not sure if in fact I do own kadees. Almost all my fleet is intermountain,I just assumed they were KDs.But then most of them do work with the mags.

As RodgerThat asked, is there a way to tell for sure?

Again I assumed, that a 2-56 screw is a 2-56 screw, regardless of who made it ,,correct?

Thanks to you guys,err folks, I,m learning something every day 

[BigDaddy]

I would say one screw is pretty much like another.  Speaking of screws, here is the bottom of 2 unbuilt kits.

A I think is Walthers and B is blue box Athearn, but I may be backwards.

Can I save the center post on A and file down the vertical edges for a Kadee 5 and use a screw and nut to attach the cover?

On B, should I file everything flat and drill for a hole or just cut it off and mount the coupler to the bottom of the car body?

Henry

is there a way to attach my sig automatically?  thanks

[jrbernier]

  Lots of good observations here.  The only metal 'Kadee Clone' that I am aware of is the Walthers 'Proto Max', and maybe the Rapidio 'Macdonald-Cartier' coupler(I do not have any of the later to inspect).

  The biggest problem with the Kadee #5(and the Proto Max) is that centering spring.  They tend to lose their ability to 'spring' and do not center after some time.  The Kadee 'whisker' coupler gets around this issue.  I have not had a Kadee #48 'whisker' coupler lose its ability to center, unless there is something rubbing in the pocket, or the screw is tightened to far.

  I take a small file and clean up the shank of my #5 couplers and also use an Exacto #11 knife to make sure the coupler box has nothing to impede coupler movement.  Do not file your #48 couplers - you will tear out one of the 'whiskers'.  The older #5 seems to have more 'flash'. but new runs seem to be cleaner.

  As several others have mentioned, get a Kadee coupler gauge, and use it!  'eye-balling' your couplers does not make it.  The 'glad hand' or trip pin needs to clear the top of the rails, and the gauge has a feature for checking that as well.  If the coupler is mounted at the correct height, the  trip pins should clear the rails.  Also, a puff of Kadee 'grease'(just graphite powder you can get from an auto supply store) will keep them moving silky smooth.

  The plastic 'clone' couplers just to not perfrom consistantly, and will pull apart with long trains.  I have a small storage container that I put clones and plastic wheels in.  At train shows I have a 'FREE' tag next to them on my table...

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

BigDaddy

I would say one screw is pretty much like another.  Speaking of screws, here is the bottom of 2 unbuilt kits.

A I think is Walthers and B is blue box Athearn, but I may be backwards.

Can I save the center post on A and file down the vertical edges for a Kadee 5 and use a screw and nut to attach the cover?

On B, should I file everything flat and drill for a hole or just cut it off and mount the coupler to the bottom of the car body?

Henry

is there a way to attach my sig automatically?  thanks

 

This product is excellent for upgrading Athearn cars with coupler box screws. 

See Bulls Eye Drill Jig

http://www.ppw-aline.com/tools.htm

[BigDaddy]

Bulls eye drill jig, now that's a neat tool