Is High Detailed Plastic becoming the New Brass?
From my perspective, absolutely no. Why? As a rule, financially brass has almost always been out of reach for the average model railroader. Thats been true for me most of my life too. Most of the newer, higher quality plastic models I can afford - even if I can't have a unit train of them!
From my observations, the cost of brass has always put it in a class for those with large sums of disposable income. There was a few years when I was making a nice salary, so I managed to afford myself a small stable of brass cabooses - 4 of the 6 came painted. I also manage to afford a couple of passenger cars, but they were relatively inexpensive for brass and were not painted so will need an investment of more $$ to make them layout ready. I have never managed to afford a brass engine however, and if I did manage to get even one, it would have been an older, unpainted model that needed a lot of work. That tells the tale right there - even with a nice salary which allowed me to spend a little more money than usual on the hobby, painted finished brass engines were still out of reach to me.
I think COST of brass is what has always set it apart as a rule from plastic. While plastic has risen in recent years with the newer more detailed and prototypical offerings, it still hasn't risen to the level brass was or is by comparison, which is "out of reach" for all but the well endowed financially. Lets face it, by world standards, Americans are well off, and to afford new brass, you would be considered rich by world standards.
I realise the cost issue may seem debatable for some. But many have correctly pointed out that when you adjust todays HQ plastic for inflation, it isn't that far out of line for plastic of 20 or 30 years ago. There are some complicating factors I realize that put the squeeze on for some, like the disappearing middle class, the ressession, and the increasingly unequal distribution of wealth, etc. that is making it harder for the traditional middle class hobbiests to keep up with things. I do hear about these issues regularly in the news, so I know that are part of the picture.
All in all, still, I'd argue that highly detailed plastic is not the new brass when you consider cost is what made brass out of reach for the average modeler. In the sense that highly detailed plastic fulfills a modelers need for more accurate models, sure, in that sense, not in the sense that brass has generally never been financially accessable to the average modeler.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
One small point about affordability: Let's say a railroad dieselized by replacing its 2-8-4's or 4-8-2's with 3-unit diesels. A transition-era modeler who follows that railroad might buy one 3-unit diesel @ $200 - 250 per unit for a total of $600 - 750. Or he might buy one modern steam loco (possibly on the used market) for $400 - 800. If these are the engines he really wants, I see no real difference. If they aren't what he really wants, or if they aren't good models, he's wasting his money on either purchase.
In my case, yes. The first piece of brass I bought was a Hallmark CF-7; cost $210.00 plus I paid $160.00 for a professional painter to put the warbonnet on it and install a constant lighting unit / flasher. It looked great; rant great on a test track; and shorted out every time it went through a switch or an undulation in the track. To this day; it sits in its box; awaiting a decoder that will probably never come, because...
Athearn came out with incredible CF-7s; in two cab styles, and two Santa Fe paint schemes; at a fraction of the cost.
I have a Hallmark Topeka-cabbed GP-7 sitting in the box, unpainted; I await the day that Athearn will release plastic Topeka GP-7s as well.
riogrande5761All in all, still, I'd argue that highly detailed plastic is not the new brass when you consider cost is what made brass out of reach for the average modeler. In the sense that highly detailed plastic fulfills a modelers need for more accurate models, sure, in that sense, not in the sense that brass has generally never been financially accessable to the average modeler.
I agree. Back in the late 80s-early 90s, when I was doing a lot of loco kitbashing and detailing to get better accuracy, I would end up investing $100-$150 (HO) in a loco by the time I was done with purchasing multiple shells, detail parts, improved drive components, etc. For similar cost today (cheaper when considering inflation) I can get something like a Genesis loco with better detail and an equivalent drive. High end RTR cars are a similar comparison.
Plastic models are more or less holding the line on costs, and we're getting tremendously improved product. Many manufacturers offer Kadee couplers standard, plus high quality metal wheelsets; items you used to have to buy separately. Consider that when comparing prices.
Look at the current brass market. Passenger cars in HO routinely being introduced for $650, diesels around $1K, steamers $1.5K plus. How does the differential work out in percentage terms compared to the good old days? It's not as if brass hasn't gone up too.
Rob Spangler
PM Railfan 1) "Is High Detailed Plastic becoming the New Brass?" Yes, in price only. While the detail on plastic has come along way, in many cases it still can not rival that of brass. Lets also not forget the difference in materials -ie: brass is a precious metal, plastic is not. Truth be known you can take a $30 yesteryear plastic diesel, add a DCC decoder ($30) and a few brass details ($30) and still come out cheaper than todays high end plastic models. And look just as good too! Lets not also forget the way brass is made! Thats almost an art in itself. Plastic is formed. To charge brass prices for todays high end locos is truely a slap in the modellers face! I personally think it also infringes on the brass collecters values. If plastic costs as much, whats the sense in brass? Im suprised more brass collectors havent whistled off about this. Likewise, since plastic costs as much as brass, why not just buy it instead? Either way, I cannot justify todays high end models vs their prices. And neither can the manufacturers! Makes you wonder who still cares about the modeller? - huh! 2) "Is this having a grave impact on the hobby and the LHS more than we realize?" You bet it is! I have seen it. I have seen a couple LHS go out of business because of the high prices. Now we have none here locally. I have talked to a few locally who have totally switched buying habits to NOT include todays models. I also happen to know two potential 2nd generation modellers decide NOT to go into the hobby, because they can buy more in another hobby. Kinda took the wind out of dads sails, and that $1200 Powhattan Arrow is just sitting around now. Dad and kids are doing something else. Todays brass pricing of new plastic models right there is indeed without a doubt killing the hobby. The very essence is to pass it on. LHS are dying, and now, sons wont be following these fatherly footsteps. All because someone wants to charge $250 for a $50 locomotive.
1) "Is High Detailed Plastic becoming the New Brass?"
Yes, in price only. While the detail on plastic has come along way, in many cases it still can not rival that of brass. Lets also not forget the difference in materials -ie: brass is a precious metal, plastic is not. Truth be known you can take a $30 yesteryear plastic diesel, add a DCC decoder ($30) and a few brass details ($30) and still come out cheaper than todays high end plastic models. And look just as good too! Lets not also forget the way brass is made! Thats almost an art in itself. Plastic is formed.
To charge brass prices for todays high end locos is truely a slap in the modellers face! I personally think it also infringes on the brass collecters values. If plastic costs as much, whats the sense in brass? Im suprised more brass collectors havent whistled off about this. Likewise, since plastic costs as much as brass, why not just buy it instead? Either way, I cannot justify todays high end models vs their prices. And neither can the manufacturers! Makes you wonder who still cares about the modeller? - huh!
2) "Is this having a grave impact on the hobby and the LHS more than we realize?"
You bet it is! I have seen it. I have seen a couple LHS go out of business because of the high prices. Now we have none here locally. I have talked to a few locally who have totally switched buying habits to NOT include todays models. I also happen to know two potential 2nd generation modellers decide NOT to go into the hobby, because they can buy more in another hobby. Kinda took the wind out of dads sails, and that $1200 Powhattan Arrow is just sitting around now. Dad and kids are doing something else.
Todays brass pricing of new plastic models right there is indeed without a doubt killing the hobby. The very essence is to pass it on. LHS are dying, and now, sons wont be following these fatherly footsteps. All because someone wants to charge $250 for a $50 locomotive.
Now to answer the main question. The models today cand have a hybred feel as I have many platic boxcars with metal grabs or other easyly broken pats in metal. A brass boxcar would cost far more the the plasic ones and are far more supseptible to paint damage. I have had one highly detailed plastic hit the concreat floor but it had minor damage and this only happened because I was moving arround a box that I thought was empty! I don't know why people worry so much about derailments, the cars rairly go far if you are watching your train and for the most part remain upright.
wp8thsubFor similar cost today (cheaper when considering inflation) I can get something like a Genesis loco with better detail and an equivalent drive. High end RTR cars are a similar comparison. Plastic models are more or less holding the line on costs, and we're getting tremendously improved product.
Yes, I really don't see where the comparison of price vs quality leaves us behind the value curve here.
Yes, things do get more expensive to purchase new over time. What doesn't? Which is just another way to say what I said previously -- there is no model railroad exception to the laws of economics. Other hobbies are no more exempt from this than ours is. There is little point in worrying about this, any more than about whether the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning.
There is far more value in virtually every model than there was 20 years ago, one that usually makes up for any price differential.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
In case people still want to discuss the cost comparison, look at this:
Overland Models (Brass) ES44AC - $895.00
Athearn Genesis ES44AC - $199.98
They have very similar features, yet Athearn's model is much less expensive. So if someone is going to say that cost of plastic models is approaching the cost of brass models, please provide an example.
BRAKIE Lake Fergmiester But beware if we buy exclusively or are forced to buy exclusively from the "Big Box" online retailers then the hobby will perich as we know it. And how do you know this will happen? Throwing, shells, coconut, Ouija board? Ken Price Palm reading maybe? I see more of a direct market for the higher tier pre order models looming in the years to come instead of the big box stores. If you notice every major player has on line sales now-instead of that old "See your local dealer" or the once popular "Your dealer can get it from Walthers"..
Lake Fergmiester But beware if we buy exclusively or are forced to buy exclusively from the "Big Box" online retailers then the hobby will perich as we know it. And how do you know this will happen? Throwing, shells, coconut, Ouija board? Ken Price
Fergmiester But beware if we buy exclusively or are forced to buy exclusively from the "Big Box" online retailers then the hobby will perich as we know it.
And how do you know this will happen? Throwing, shells, coconut, Ouija board?
Ken Price
Palm reading maybe?
I see more of a direct market for the higher tier pre order models looming in the years to come instead of the big box stores.
If you notice every major player has on line sales now-instead of that old "See your local dealer" or the once popular "Your dealer can get it from Walthers"..
BINGO! Direct sales seem to becoming more and more evident and if this high detailed plastic becomes the mainstay of the hobby then all the little guy LHS will not survivie on the sales of track and accessories.
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5959
If one could roll back the hands of time... They would be waiting for the next train into the future. A. H. Francey 1921-2007
FergmiesterBINGO! Direct sales seem to becomin1rg more and more evident and if this high detailed plastic becomes the mainstay of the hobby then all the little guy LHS will not survivie on the sales of track and accessories.
Whoa there. Do we really need another conspiracy theory on who killled the LHS? And haven't lots of folks already been "dispatched" by, ahem, various other nefarious means?
I think there's little if any evidence to suggest that a bunch of manufacturers plan to take this approach. And I don't see any "mail order cartel" forming either.
mlehman Fergmiester BINGO! Direct sales seem to becoming more and more evident and if this high detailed plastic becomes the mainstay of the hobby then all the little guy LHS will not survivie on the sales of track and accessories. Whoa there. Do we really need another conspiracy theory on who killled the LHS? And haven't lots of folks already been "dispatched" by, ahem, various other nefarious means? I think there's little if any evidence to suggest that a bunch of manufacturers plan to take this approach. And I don't see any "mail order cartel" forming either.
Fergmiester BINGO! Direct sales seem to becoming more and more evident and if this high detailed plastic becomes the mainstay of the hobby then all the little guy LHS will not survivie on the sales of track and accessories.
Mike,I don't see a conspiracy at all..
ExactRail is direct sales only and it seems to be working quite well regardless of what the doom sayers said after ER announced they are moving to direct sales only...
Every major manufacturer sells direct and this may become the future as production cost keeps raising while the profit margin grows smaller.Simply put they can't keep jacking prices to a point where a very few with deep pockets can afford their product.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I never suggested (or had in mind) a conspiracy was behind this. What I am concerned about is the potential effect it is and will have on the LHS.
BRAKIEMike,I don't see a conspiracy at all..
Yeah, I don't either. This minor growth in direct sales is one more very incremental marker of a changing market. And not really a new one. It's simply one that is now viable for the bigger players with deep pockets who choose to take it. I think there's a very mixed prognosis for how it will work out. It can for some things, others not so much.
BRAKIEEvery major manufacturer sells direct and this may become the future..
And most who do sell direct are careful to not undercut the retail side of things. Most of the time, sales are at full MSRP, which an informed consumer can beat almost every time by going to a retailer. ER is admittedly an outlier to things as they have been done. Ask again in 5 years to see what the longer term looks like.
FergmiesterI never suggested (or had in mind) a conspiracy was behind this. What I am concerned about is the potential effect it is and will have on the LHS.
I'll admit to some healthy overemphasis of my point. I understand your concern. Here's mine.
It's more because of what people do with such ideas, given the prevalance of "death of the hobby" narratives on the internet. It's no wonder all those young folks are on that social media thing (whatever that is...) instead, because they get tired of hearing about various stories of ill health and rampant morbidity from a bunch of old guys debating such things. It's not the facts of life that will "kill the hobby," it's everyone talking it to death.
I expect the direct to retail trend to continue to grow, because the internet that made it possible as a successful sales model is still growing. But unless it's exclusive, in other words, there is no distribution except directly from the manufacturer, it's hardly a factor. The same thing applies to what I just said about direct sales at MSRP only. Then you'd have to apply both widely across the industry, which would be like herding cats. Unless you can invoke all three conditions as specifically applying, I don't see any trend of particular relevance to the industry as a whole whose significance exceeds that of many other factors that undermine small businesses as whole, not simply that storied LHS of yore.
Many/most manufacturers do sell online but at MSRP- this gives them a bit more margin compared to the amount they get when they sell to a LHS as they don't have to take off the LHS discount. So by doing this maybe it helps keep the prices down for all of us. I would rather let the manufacturer sell online at MSRP and realize a bit of benefit of overall lower pricing.
BRAKIE ... ExactRail is direct sales only and it seems to be working quite well regardless of what the doom sayers said after ER announced they are moving to direct sales only... ...
...
Larry,
It will be interesting to see how they're doing a few years from now when more modelers are in the hobby who have never seen their product. Of course, no company ever shows numbers so we won't really know unless they disappear.
Personally, I would hesitate to spend $30-$40 dollars on a car from a company whose product I have never seen.
Paul
mlehmanThe same thing applies to what I just said about direct sales at MSRP only.
Currently ER does offer discounts on their cars with free shipping for orders over $50.00-that's roughly 2-3 cars depending on one of the four production series which is Signature,Platinum,Evolution and Express..
Maybe,it won't be full MSRP should the manufacturers move to direct sales only in the future?
BRAKIECurrently ER does offer discounts on their cars with free shipping for orders over $50.00-that's roughly 2-3 cars depending on one of the four production series which is Signature,Platinum,Evolution and Express.. Maybe,it won't be full MSRP should the manufacturers move to direct sales only in the future?
Yeah, but the definition of "MSRP" tends to get really mushy when there effectively is no retail other than the sole source. It could come out in favor of consumers if the vendor splits the cut that previously went to distribution and retail customers with the consumer. More likely, this will benefit the vendor. Nothing wrong with that, but I suspect people will be even more price-leery than before with sole source direct retail.
The issue of how consumers find out about products is not too big a deal when lots are being sold and new runs always are coming along to attract attention from different segments of the hobby and their interests. This works well with freight cars, but I'm not so sure about track or scenery items, for instance.
IRONROOSTERPersonally, I would hesitate to spend $30-$40 dollars on a car from a company whose product I have never seen. Paul
Paul,That may bite them on their fanny when new modelers enter the hobby like you said they never seen their excellent products..
I too would think twice before buying from any company sight unseen.
mlehmanYeah, but the definition of "MSRP" tends to get really mushy when there effectively is no retail other than the sole source. It could come out in favor of consumers if the vendor splits the cut that previously went to distribution and retail customers with the consumer. More likely, this will benefit the vendor.
I suspect as long as their prices is close to their competitors then no worries..I would start rethinking the deal if their MSRP was higher then their competitors.
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This works well with freight cars, but I'm not so sure about track or scenery items, for instance.
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Well,before I decide to buy a new locomotive I check the reviews on You Tube and read the topics concerning a new product on that other forum we're on.So far I had great results with that method-other then a few QA/QC issues but,I was expecting that possibility from the research.
As far as track and scenery I will stick with the brands I normally use.
A new modeler will need to ask question on this forum and then judge the answers based on his needs.
For starters, let's a have a reality check: All brick & mortar non-service retailers are in big trouble. Every last one. Why? The internet is killing them. "The internet killed the ree-tail star..." Last year's X-mas shopping season saw something like a 30% drop in b&m sales, while also seeing a 30% increase in online sales. You don't have to be Warren Buffet to see the writing on the wall that all non-service retailers are going the way of the dodo. Heck, ever see a video store anymore? All gone.
Take my parent's used bookstore. We're going out of business this Saturday after 27 years. Oh, sure, we could maybe hang on for year, but the sales numbers do not lie. With a 5-year lease extension requirement, we can't see the store making enough money to pay the rent as the last several years have been all bad. The trouble is that our best customers, the ones that would buy multiple bags of books every month, all got Kindles and Nooks for X-mas or birthdays. Add to that the rise of Amazon, AbeBooks, etc., and the superb free library system here in Massachusetts (where anyone can go online and order any book to be had in the State, and have it delivered to your local library for free), and one can easily see where the book business isn't...and that's in a brick and motar storefront. And FWIW, what's replacing our bookstore? A Bridal Shop (a service retailer). What's in our entire shopping plaza of 16 stores right now? A hairdresser, a barber, 2 deli's, 4 restaurants, a nail salon, an orthadontist, a dance studio, a dry cleaner, a dog groomer, a dance supply store, and invitations store, and us. Note that other than our bookstore and the dance supply shop (just started this year), they are all service retailers...something you can't get online.
Now look at all major retailers. Why drive all over creation at $3.60 a gallon to buy something you can get online? No hassle, no standing in lines, no missing sizes, and so on. And it's all delivered to your door. You can do your entire holiday shopping in a single morning and never have to take off your pajamas.
Small business retailers are the canary in the coal mine for all non-service retailers. LHS's are the leading edge. But the death of the LHS has nothing to do with the health of the hobby. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Why? The internet, again. With the internet, one doesn't need an LHS anymore...just like you don't need a video store or a bookstore. Wanna chat with fellow rails? Welcome to this very forum. Wanna get the latest loco? Welcome to online direct sales. Wanna find an old, out of production boxcar? Welcome to eBay. Why go 10, 25, or 50 miles at $3.60 a gallon to pay list price or even 20% off when you can get the same deal if not better online?
But who's to blame for all this? You! Yes, you...the consumer. You won't pay MSRP, will you? You demand a discount because you know you can get it elsewhere for less. You are personally taking money out of your LHS's pocket, but it doesn't bother you because it's not you that's feeling the pinch. The manufactures are not running a scam. Instead, it's the consumers that are doing the LHS in, and so the days of shopping for retail are dying due to consumer preference. Welcome to the 21st Century.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
I think you summed things up pretty well there. The issues in retailing have little to do with the hobby itself and a lot to do with other forces at work in the hobby, like they are in ALL hobbies, in fact with most economic life these days.
Paul3But who's to blame for all this? You! Yes, you...the consumer. You won't pay MSRP, will you? You demand a discount because you know you can get it elsewhere for less. You are personally taking money out of your LHS's pocket, but it doesn't bother you because it's not you that's feeling the pinch. The manufactures are not running a scam. Instead, it's the consumers that are doing the LHS in, and so the days of shopping for retail are dying due to consumer preference. Welcome to the 21st Century.
I'd be careful not to blame customers too much. I would gladly shop at a LHS and could probably deal with paying retail for many items. Our LHS has been up and down over the years in terms of other things, but always full MSRP, with the exception of their extensive scrtach and dent collection, since they get pretty good deals on that stuff with several large hobby distributors in town. They can order it for you, but then that competes with the rest of mail order, most of which isn't full MSRP. Throw in sales tqax and a lot of folks just throw up their hands and shop online.
Doesn't have to be that way. There are some folks who run well-stocked hobby shops, offer discounts on some items at least some of the time, and make sure you get what you order in timely fashion (another issue here locally.) But that's a shrinking minority of a failing sales model in most places. The consumer often has little choice but to shop the 'net, because the other choice just isn't there or is bad enough in some form or fashion it's just easier to fire up the computer.
Retail was never an easy business. To make it work your game has got to be pretty darn good, with luck and timing often being as big factors as anything the merchant has a choice about. And there arelots of good people who drop by the wayside because, even though they did a great job, not enough people walked through their doors to make it profitable enough to sustain. Plan B works for a lot of people for that reason, even with the best of intentions and effort down at the LHS.
Paul3You are personally taking money out of your LHS's pocket, but it doesn't bother you because it's not you that's feeling the pinch.
I know this..I'm retired and if I paid full MSRP at the not so local hobby shop I would be in a pinch unless I start robbing Peter to buy Paul and I'm not about to start doing that..My savings will remain intact as will my rainy day fund.
Another thing you seem to overlook is what shop has all the new releases in stock? Around here none other then a few cars or preordered locomotives that was rejected or not picked up..
Paul,As I stated before if I had a fully stock hobby shop in town that offered a small 10% off he would gain a new customer.I seen no need to make a 52 mile round trip to see the same cars and locomotives at full MSRP.
Sorry to hear about your parent's book store..
Our new and use book store closed 7 years ago..Quite the blow at that time.
IRONROOSTERLarry, It will be interesting to see how they're doing a few years from now when more modelers are in the hobby who have never seen their product. Of course, no company ever shows numbers so we won't really know unless they disappear. Personally, I would hesitate to spend $30-$40 dollars on a car from a company whose product I have never seen. Paul
The above is a perspective from an older person, and yes, I include myself in the "older person" category. But read Paul Cutler's comments on the change in the retail market. Basically the way we are doing business has and is undergoing a massive change. I've already heard many a report on the news about how companies are shifting their strategies for advertising etc. to reach the younger generation, who live on smart phones, social media and other avenues of taking in the world. Truly now, more then ever, if many businesses stick with the old way, the will get left behind and die.
The belabored "lament" about the dying LHS will continue to be heard from the old folks until they have finally died off, and the younger generation will not miss them at all, because they grew up living their lives a completely different way. They don't have to see a product in person to buy it, even I don't. Companies like ExactRail produce very sharp large high resolution photo's that I can view on my computer screen much better than in a box or shelf at an LHS.
mlehman And most who do sell direct are careful to not undercut the retail side of things. Most of the time, sales are at full MSRP, which an informed consumer can beat almost every time by going to a retailer. ER is admittedly an outlier to things as they have been done. Ask again in 5 years to see what the longer term looks like.
If the triend Paul Cutler described so well continues, and it sure seems like it will, then ER will be a vanguard of something we will see more and more of, especially as the LHS continues it's downward spiral, along with many other forms of brick and mortor retail which close for the same reasons. Change is hard but we can't really stop it - it's like a growing tidal wave which is gaining momentum as more of the younger generation grow up and become consumers.
I'll admit to some healthy overemphasis of my point. I understand your concern. Here's mine. It's more because of what people do with such ideas, given the prevalance of "death of the hobby" narratives on the internet. It's no wonder all those young folks are on that social media thing (whatever that is...)
It's more because of what people do with such ideas, given the prevalance of "death of the hobby" narratives on the internet. It's no wonder all those young folks are on that social media thing (whatever that is...)
Pretty much! But the "death of the hobby" histeria is being driven much due to the older generations alarm at the changes of the market and way of doing business in the hobby. Whats the old saying, change, adapt or get left behind. Note that ER is being run by some younger folks, at least Blaine looks like he could be my son, hard as it is for me to admit, and their businiess model is much in keeping with the younger generation way of doing business. Athearn is moving that way too with facebook, much hated by some of the older generation.
instead, because they get tired of hearing about various stories of ill health and rampant morbidity from a bunch of old guys debating such things. It's not the facts of life that will "kill the hobby," it's everyone talking it to death.
Here here! And it isn't just the younger generation whio is getting tired of the old guys talking this to death!
Agree'd.
And Larry, I don't think Paul was including you in the blame for the death of the LHS. Rather the consumer in general. Even if a number of us decided to treat the LHS like a charity or church, and "sacrificially give" to spend more than they ordinarily would to try to support or "save" the LHS, it would not be enough IMO. The whole over arching trend Paul Cutler described is still going to have it's way. Shops which adapt and use more "modern" business practices, and leverage the internet and social media may continue to thrive. Those that don't will close - its just a matter of time. Not that I feel that you should go against your conscience - anyone who feels morally obligated to support a cause may still feel compelled to act on those grounds. Sure, I have my scruples too, about other causes, but when it comes to discretionary spending, things I don't need to survive, I do shop around for a good deal like most people do.
So have we driven this topic far off topic yet?
riogrande5761And Larry, I don't think Paul was including you in the blame for the death of the LHS. Rather the consumer in general.
No doubt but,seeing I am a consumer and seeing I don't use the not so local shop I can stand to take a small part of the finger pointing blame should it close.
To be sure if I lived 60 miles South in Columbus I would use the shops for 90% of my purchases since there is several located there that offers a wider selection to choose from.
Also at 66 I love the modern ways we have in shopping since it gives me a wider choice to choose from and that includes my other passion Western novels and Judge Dee mysteries.
BRAKIE riogrande5761 And Larry, I don't think Paul was including you in the blame for the death of the LHS. Rather the consumer in general. No doubt but,seeing I am a consumer and seeing I don't use the not so local shop I can stand to take a small part of the finger pointing blame should it close.
riogrande5761 And Larry, I don't think Paul was including you in the blame for the death of the LHS. Rather the consumer in general.
Don't be too hard on yourself. There is only so much one person can do. There are forces at work are much larger. It's like a damn which has sprouted hundreds of holes and you only have a couple finger to plug them.
Thats the good news, we do have access to many shops via the web and mail delivery!
mlehman,Nope, I'll blame the consumer their full fair measure. It is they who decide how they shop and where they spend their money. They are the ones that decide who survives in retail. Certainly, there are other reasons why individual places go out of business (cranky sales staff, poor stock choice, crazy hours, bad location, high rent/utilities/taxes/CAM, etc.), but the No. 1 reason is always the consumer's choice.
For example, at my old bookshop, I had a customer this month who came up to the register with 2 used paperback books. These list new at $7.99 each. We normally sell them at $4.40 ea., but due to our going out of business sale at the time, they were $3.00 ea. The lady had a store credit (from bringing in used books) that would take 50% off any used book. The total, with tax, came to $3.19 for two ~500-page paperback books (a $16 value when new). She blanched, and said, "You mean I have to pay? I'll just take one of them." I voided her transaction and started over. Now it was $1.59 for one lousy paperback book. She hemmed and hawed, and said, "No, if I have to pay for it, I think I'll come back later." She left the books on the counter, took her store credit, left and never returned. She wouldn't pay $1.59 for a book, less than 19% of it's listed price.
Now, I had the books she wanted. I was willing to sell them to her for less than a cup of coffee over at the deli next door (which she had in her hand). But she wouldn't pony up the pocket change for the book because she wanted them for free. How is this my fault?
Here's another one: last year a customer with a large store credit (well over $100) made a purchase and spent roughly $25 after her credit. The next customer in line had no store credit and her bill came to $50 and she was getting out cash to pay for it. The first customer was talking to the second customer, saw the total, and said, "Oh, here, she can use my credit." I grimaced, but the store policy was we didn't care who had the credit. If she had left well enough alone, I'd have another $25 in my pocket. Now before anyone thinks these were friends or family to each other, they'd never met before they came into my store. I know because the first customer is the wife of a friend of mine. But she was willing to give a total stranger a $25 "gift" instead of letting a person who's had dinner in her house earn that "extra" $25. Why? Probably because as a "store", we're lumped into the same category as Wal-Mart and Target.
The point of all this blathering is that for all those guys here and elsewhere bemoaning the death of the LHS and blaming it on greedy manufacturers are actually part of the problem. "Support your local hobby shop" means spend more money, not typing words into a web forum and hitting "Submit Your Reply". They can't pay the rent with good intentions.
YES and what is going to be real funny is when most all of the Retail Stores are gone and all we have is the Internet - the prices are going to go UP!
Just as the cost of everything else keeps going up so will their costs!
They can't live on a 1/2 % profit margin! Something that most Grocery Stores work at most of the time!
It is going to make for some lively discussions in the future with all of us complaining about the Internet bussinesses gouging us as there won't be any more LHS to cry about gouging us as they seem to doing now!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I dont feel it will, the new plastic stuff is way to fragile, even new brass, which is more fragile than older models that were not quite as detailed, isnt as fragile as this new plastic stuff. Brass steam is way easier to work on. Tin can, I can solve the issues with your CF7. My whole fleet is vintage brass and they all run excellent with upgrading to 8 wheel pickup, can motors when needed and DCC/Sound in some. While some of the paint schemes I leave to the real pro's. I have done some simple 1 and 2 colors schemes like NW, NS, BN, Conrail ect. For what a problematic Proto 2K NKP Berkshire costs, I will buy an old PFM/United, remotor it with a A-line motor and it will run and pull a much larger train when I am done. Brass will always fill a niche in the hobby, for the collector that just puts them in a display case, those like myself that just like having ones trains made mostly of metal, and detailed. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome