Call me picky, but I see too many model train movements, in operating sessions as well as in videos, where the trains move at unrealistic speeds. Even trains on the main line look like they're moving at about 150 mph (freight trains, not 'bullet trains'); way too fast for anything that would be true of the movement of the prototype. Switching seems to be done at "track speed". Now, maybe I'm just whining, but my thinking is that movements that are at least close to prototypical speeds make operations more interesting, as well as adding a bit more realism. Tell me what you think.
You can take the operator out of the Lionel, but you can't take the Lionel out of the operator.
I've been through at least three phases since I converted to DCC where I've successively reduced the top speed on most of my standard gauge motive power. They even seem slow when they first emerge from staging, but give it a few feet and things seem "right" at where they are now.
One thing that I've found that helps slow operators down is sound. My HOn3 steam is all sound-equipped and I've never had to reduce the top speed with them. It naturally seems to affect the speed used when they start pushing too fast.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Yes, I think the same as you.
In three of the operating groups that I participate in there is a term called "Quality Throttle Time". Anytime it sounds like someone is speeding that phrase will go out to remind people to watch their scale speed.
Another layout I operate on the owner has speed curved the locomotive so the top speed is 30 smph.
The museum where I operate has a speed limit of 20 mph for all trains except passenger and one hot freight piggy back that is allowed to go 30 mph. There is a speed sensor on the layout, plus the dispatcher knows how long it should take a train to get from siding x to siding y. Engineers can be suspended for exceeding the limit just like on a real railroad.
On the other hand, I was very miffed at Walthers for making the Proto-2000 F units that they sold for the Santa Fe El Capitan to be geared at 14:1 which means the top speed is about 69 smph. An El Capitan on Santa Fe's race track between La Junta and Dodge City creeping along at 70 mph. How unrealistic is that! It is on the same schedule as the Super Chief so it has to keep up.
Same thing applies to all the Walther's pass sets. Hiawatha, Empire Builder... All known for running much faster. The speedometer in the front of a budd dome car goes to 110 mph for a reason.
Tom,
I enjoy operating my switching layout at slow speeds. I've taken cues from Andy Sperandeo's articles in MRR and also having watched the switching crews at work inside the oil refinery I worked at. I think having sound locomotives adds to the realism of the switching moves too.
Most of time I didn't mind getting stuck at the R/R crossings in the refinery. I enjoyed seeing and hearing the laboring switcher throttling up as it pulled a loaded string of loaded LPG tank cars up from the loading racks, switchmen riding the stirrup of the last tanker. Can't say my workmates felt the same, especially when heading back to the barn at lunch or quitting time.
I've only recently completed enough of my layout to do some actual switching. At slow speeds it took me over an hour to switch the coal fired power plant, bringing a string of loaded hoppers from the yard into the plant and taking the empties back. Not for everybody I know, but I found it most satisfying and relaxing, but most of all fun.
Have a good one, regards, Peter
The Rocky Mountains is the setting in which I model. That being said 40 scale MPH is about as fast as I like to see the trains go. I really enjoy having my 4-4-0 putting along at 20 to 25 MPH.
In real life I remember seeing the trains really ripping across the Prairies at high speeds, however I don't have a scale 1000 mile straight stretch on my layout. Just winding mountain passes.
Although I'll crank it up to about 60 when testing track, but only when testing track.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
mlehman One thing that I've found that helps slow operators down is sound. My HOn3 steam is all sound-equipped and I've never had to reduce the top speed with them. It naturally seems to affect the speed used when they start pushing too fast.
I agree with the sound - at least for steam - making folks slow down to something more realistic.
For switching models, without scenery, scale speed can get a little old. 5 scale MPH means it takes about 6 seconds for a 40ft long car to pass a given point, no matter what scale you are in. Doing a runaround and spotting a car on a facing spur with a 12 car length siding automatically takes several full minutes at scale speeds. This can be a little boring if there is no scenery and no sound to help with the passage of time.
just my experiences operating on other people's layouts
Fred W
This is probably the most discussed topic on this forum, it has been beaten to death many times and still rises from the cinders, members have quoted that you cannot actually(and simply) scale down speed, as there are many other factors involved, one being the distance the train is observed from in the foreground and background of the train itself, I cannot explain this theory and there are other theories included, many people mention just how unbelievably slow trains move when (supposedly) moving at "scale' speed. One cannot simply take a rule and apply it to a subject and hope it may work, I found out about this rule from my drafting instructor when he was teaching us perspective, its not a simple as drawing a line to infinity, as we soon learned, good luck on the solving of this problem. As one forumer said, you simply cannot solve every single railroading problem by simply reducing it to 1:87
Cheers, the Bear. (perhaps with a questionable attention span?)
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
If my calculations are correct, an HO train moving at 1 foot per minute is moving at 1 scale mile per hour. That is less than 1 1/2 sections (9") of track per minute. It does seem slow, but I do like to run them close to scale speeds, as it makes it seem more realistic when they are going around in circles and are gone awhile while on the other side of the scenic divider.
One of the steam locos I have won't go quite that slow, the other somewhat faster. The diesel barely creeps despite the speed control set up to 7 or 8. If I get brave I may work on their speed control. Have a decoder to put in another diesel before I find out how its speed is. Also waitiing for one to return from installation and be my first diesel with sound. Expect it will go slow, but we'll see.
I too have noticed in many videos that the trains really seem to be in a hurry. Then I go sit by the tracks and watch Amtrak fly through my neighboring town, I feel like it is in a big hurry.
Last time my grandson ran a train, he was in the Amtrak mode. I'm hoping he and his sister will do better now that I have DCC and better control. We all seem to have a speed we go at, whether running our trains or passing through life.
EDIT: I'll agree that watching scale speeds is a little like watching paint dry. However, operating isn't as bad, though I can see how on long sidings (which I don't have room for, it probably could get a bit monotonous.
Have fun,
Richard
I agree with what's already been said. Sound definately helps operators, including myself, run at more appropriate speeds. To placate the uneducated observers, I put a bicycle speedometer in one of my gondolas. It is calibrated for 33" wheels, so it shows scale speed. If anyone says "Why is it going so slow?" I can show them the scale speed and point out that is actually travelling at a realistic speed.
I agree with Bear, switching at scale speed can become a little boring. I can cope with that when switching for my own benefit, but tend to speed it up a bit for visitors.
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
AlantrainsI agree with Bear, switching at scale speed can become a little boring. I can cope with that when switching for my own benefit, but tend to speed it up a bit for visitors.
I still switch at scale speed when visitors are present..
Why?
Thanks for asking.
I explain each move the brakeman is making and 90% is impress that I take time to allow the work.I also explain I use momentum and start and top volt for train control and if the engine has a DCC decoder I use momentum and speed steps for realistic scale speeds.
The other 10% wants to know has fast they go and do I wreck my trains..
My answer is these are not slot cars and way to expensive to wreck.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I also like to do switching at slow scale speeds. I like the looks of the loco crawling over turnouts, time given for the brakeman to make his moves, and so on. For me, it adds to the realizm. As for main line running, I try and judge the speed as the train passes stationary objects, like the equipment cabinets, and structures at a siding, and buildings, and getting my eye right at trackside, and judging it by what I see at real crossings. The countless CN trains I've watched at various crossings in my area, it seems like sometimes, you feel that maybe you should back up, as it looks like the train is flying by. You can see the coupler slack action as a train goes up and down grade. What surprises me, at home, with the scanner on, as the train passes a hot box detector, the same trains you thought were flying by the crossing, are seldom going over 50 mph, with 43 to 48 mph being the norm.
Mike.
My You Tube
It was always my goal to operate my trains realistically in scale. It's why I can't abide smoke...spoils the illusion. Sound is not great for that either, but it does add more than it takes away...IMO. For me, it's the unnatural sounds of the rapid chuff rate on a fast-moving locomotive. I haven't heard a decoder do speed chuffs properly yet. Also bad are breakneck speeds where trains are really doing about 100 mph.
For those of us who like steam, and are familiar with how they operate, its easy to move scale locomotives so that the rods and drivers cycle at realistic speeds. Just imagine you're watching a video of the real thing, and set your throttle accordingly.
Another way to find out if your brain is tricking you into unrealistically high speeds is to make a video. Set the camera low and pointed so that a train will approach the lens from about five feet away or more. Record it at your favourite speed, and then play it back. Viewing the video will make the scale errors stand out that way.
selectorAnother way to find out if your brain is tricking you into unrealistically high speeds is to make a video. Set the camera low and pointed so that a train will approach the lens from about five feet away or more. Record it at your favourite speed, and then play it back. Viewing the video will make the scale errors stand out that way.
Interesting suggestion..I will have to try that and see how well I'm doing.
Maybe after a few test videos I might upload the better one on you tube.
Realistic Schmealistic!
LION admits to running his trains a "little fast"
LION has timed NYCT trains arriving at stations, A 600' train stops in a 600' station in 18 seconds.
LION runs 300' trains stopping in 300' stations in about 2 seconds or less.
ON NO MR. BILL!
But then it looks ok to me. I think, visually I have it about right.
LION times trains of him at about 45 mph, NYCT trains do about 30-35 mph, but... back in the day they did run faster. Newer trains with longer braking distances could not be protected by the existing signals system. Now NYCT wants to replace the signal system. STOOPIT says LION. Fix the BRAKING system, perhaps using track brakes to restore the older braking characteristics to match the signals system.
Oh well, they NEVER listen to their LION.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
My son and I had that conversation when he made this video of three trains, for media in school.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Tn4PrzlFI&list=PL5E7C9C3E53977DF4
Great commentnts all!
I know that I too am probably guilty of going too fast, but I try always to keep at close to prototypical speeds. Many of you have commented that watching a train switch at slow speeds is boring. Well, do you think watching the prototype do switching moves is boring? For me, when railfanning, switching is the most fun. Some have alluded to the fact that, without scenery, these switching moves are boring - - agreed. I guess the answer to that dilemma is: get to work on the scenery and structures. Although my layout is by no means finished, one of the first things I did was to build some of the major industrial structures, so as to give my railroad a purpose right from the start. I don't operate with DCC, nor sound; many of my locomotives are old Athearn BB but I still keep things on the "creep". One of the things I do when railfanning is observe (as I'm sure most of you all do as well). I observe how the real thing does things like giving the brakeman the opportunity to board the last car when pulling a car or cars from a spur, or giving the brakeman time to throw a switch before a move. I just think that these kinds of things add interest to train operations, rather than making them boring.
I must be totally opposite or I'm looking at this the wrong way. I feel that running my HO scale (diesel) locos at realistic speeds is too fast and unrealistic. All my locos are DCC (most have Soundtraxx Tsunami sound) and I have a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra command station and use a DT402 for operations. I do all my own CV programming. I used this chart/table to determine the following (distance traveled for all is 36 inches):
Setting on DT402 at 5 took 34.46 seconds, which equals 5.16 scale miles per hour
10 15.18 seconds 11.72 mph
15 9.9 seconds 17.98 mph
20 7.92 seconds 22.5 mph
25 6.1 seconds 29.17 mph
30 5.13 seconds 34.69 mph
40 4.01 seconds 44.38 mph
FYI, while switching, I usually keep the setting on the DT402 at 10 or less and while running on the main hardly ever exceed 20 (running above this looks to fast for me). Guess I just like slow moving trains.
EDIT on 4/26/14 - these times were for 1 loco (Athearn Genesis SD70ACe) pulling 11 freight cars.
Inspired by Addiction
See more on my YouTube Channel
I think slow movement is more important in MR than fast movement. espcially in small layouts like mine since it makes the layout seem larger especially when combined with view blocks.
Part of reason some of the trains may be moving faster than one would expect is that many especially low end models are geared locosthat way for Kids. In DCC this can sometimes be adjusted, but not always depends on the quality of the decorder.
Joe Staten Island West
That's because we are boys playing with toys. We have out own versions of reality.
How to easily calculate scale speed.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~trains/rroperat.htm
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
An interesting twist on this is that for many years, model railroaders and manufacturers worked to make trains run well at slow speeds. People used to take Athearn diesels and add new motors and re-gearing kits to slow them down, and makers like Atlas, Kato and others were applauded for making engines that could maintain a slow steady speed 'out of the box'. Now in recent years, some people are complaining that their engines run TOO slowly, they want to run SD70s or E units at 'prototype' high speeds on mainline trains, but find the engines' gearing doesn't allow them to go over 45-50 MPH.
One thing people often forget to factor in are the curves we use. IIRC a 10-degree prototype curve is about the sharpest you'd find on a mainline, and trains would be restricted to around 20-30 MPH. That works out to about 34" radius curves in HO, so someone using "broad" 30" radius curves would probably in the real world have to take the curve at say 15-20 MPH.
Another factor is train length. Let's say as an example (although I'm sure someone will have to whip out a calculator to give the exact numbers) that we have a loaded DMIR iron ore train of 180 cars. The top speed for loaded ore trains was 30 MPH, and let's say at that speed it takes 3 minutes for the train to pass you waiting at a grade crossing. Well on a model railroad, a long ore train would be 30 cars. At 30 scale MPH, the train will pass the grade crossing in only 30 seconds. By slowing down to 15 scale MPH, the train will take one minute - still not 3 minutes like the real one, but the longer time will make the train seem longer.
As I remotor my vintage locos, I also regear to give the model a realistic top speed. That way I get graceful starts and I can't make it go faster than it should.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Good thread.
I like running my locomotives at a realistic scale speed; especially during switching manuevers and on take offs.
Interesting points regarding complaints about newer locomotives having gear ratios that provide outstanding low speed control but sacrifice running at over 65 scale mph.
One aspect that I like about DCC is that higher geared locomotives with decent drives (like the older run LL Proto 2000 E-units) can take off and run realistically at lower speeds without giving up the 90mph+ "racehorse" abilities.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
When I was a kid, I used to run my trains fast. As I grew and looked at my trains as scale models instead of toys, I began to prefer to run my trains at a more realistic pace. Now that I've gotten really into operations, I keep the speeds at a realistic pace all of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5TEr0xpQs
Of course, when doing tune up work on locomotives, I tend to run them at a variety of speeds, including faster than normal.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
Your concern about speed is legitmate. My model railroad is still DC powered. For each train, speed is controlled by a color code. Operating instructions state that maximum speed is red, for example. Each throttle has a series of colored dots denoting various speeds.
The actual speeds have been established by running each train dozens of times and logging the actual time it takes to get from point A to point B. In addition, I operate in the mountains of West Virginia (a coal hauler primarily) so going up a 2%-2.5% grade slows down each train as it climbs a mountain. I've run trains at the lowest possible speed to get over the mountains without stalling, which is included in the speed/time calculation.
My (HO) railroad is in a 9'x12' room with an around the room (3 times) main line. A typical "coal drag" consisting of 9 hoppers takes more than 5 minutes to make a complete circut, non-stop. In prototpe operation (stopping to raise/lower retainers, take on water for steamers, switch the two mine sites, wait for higher priority trains) it takes 45 minutes to an hour to complete a run.
General Freight and passenger trains are subject to similar observations to establish their "maximum" speeds.
Back in about July, 1982, MR had an article on ways to determine speed on the Model Railroad. My mind doesn't work as well as it did back then. At some point I figuired out a trackside speed indicator. I marked a R.O.W. fence with a fenceposts 22 scale feet apart. Each fence post is marked in intervals of five (5), representing each five MPH of speed. As my engine (or a particular car in the train) goes by zero (0) I count 1000-1, 1000-2, 1000-3. A quick look at the trackside speed chart will give me the train's speed. I've never had digital speedometer to test the accuracy of my speed graph, but it works for me. Maybe someone with DCC, or other digital device can test the graph. It may be that 22-1/2 scale feet , or 24 scale feet, or whatever may be more accurate. I'm pretty pleased with the method on my N-Scale layout. At least it's better than nothing.
th Old Yard Goat,
Cathlamet, WA
Since this discussion, and since most preferred realistic speeds, I went back and did some more analysis. I would run my trains (HO scale) at speed settings on my DT402 of 25, 30, 35 and 40. It seemed like they were running more realistic and the visual appeal was good. Of course, feeling the need for speed, I started increasing the settings and timing the distance.
At a speed setting of 50, the calcs showed a scale speed of 51 mph. It also showed my track and rolling stock was ok and withstood the higher than normal speeds, not one derailment (knock on wood). Will I run all my trains at speed setting of 50 all the time? Probably not, but it's nice to know I can and my track, locos and rolling stock can take it.
I believe this is where the decoder peaked, as the scale speed started equaling the speed setting on the DT402. I believe one or two of you mentioned this possibility in another post. One other thing, a speed setting of 45 is where the noise of the wheels/track started to override the sound from the loco.
Thanks for provoking thought and interest!