I know that I have certain 'expectations' when I buy a new product...But then again, I am a Retread, & occasionally i turn out a ½ decent model too...
Seriously, I meant that in the best essence of Humor, with the salt on my end, ha hah..
Many of you will, probably recall,a very similar discussion not too long ago,related to products,made in China, bottom line of that discussion,was simple,''cheap labor'', now that the poor people there,are getting somewhat more,to live on, what's the next country for cheap labor,one reply,was even Vietnam. How many more,under developed country's are left,for so called cheap labor? Henry Ford,had the right idea. What was Hitler's reasoning,behind Henry Ford's idea, it surely was not about the people,,but was about the assembly line's that Henry Ford started. We can all discuss this until we are blue in the face and will come,back to the very first page every time. ''Profits'' Quality control, labor.Pete,get some lighter,hammers!
Cheers,
Frank
Their RTR B&O cabooses cost $60.00 - they quality check EVERY car after it gets here from China - that's a lot of work!That's a big part of why they are $60.00.
Sheldon
But Sheldon, model trains are supposed to be simultaneously CHEAP and of the HIGHEST QUALITY.. We can't expect people to spend $60 on a caboose that shouldn't cost more than the inflation adjusted price of an Athearn caboose model that's been around since the 1950's, whose original price was $1.98 and whose tooling costs should have long ago been amortized. The current MSRP ($24.98) for the RTR caboose is about 50% above the inflation adjusted price of the kit in 1957 (paint and graphics much, much better than then). Athearn, naturally, is still decorating these things for railroads whose cabeese were considerably different in appearance.
I have to admit I absolutely refuse to pay $60 for one of the Spring Mills cabeese. OTOH, the reason for my refusal is not that the price is $60, but because the prototype is B&O. Then again, I won't pay $70 for an Athearn Genesis C50-7 caboose even though it's SP, again not because of the price, but because it's outside my era of interest. Now if Athearn wants to make a C30-4 and decorate some of its production for the appearance of said cabeese as they appeared around 1952, they'd at least pique my interest.
Andre
Only BLI locos I have are diesels and the AC6000CW's the truck towers are offset and sometimes the wheels next to the fuel tank derails but I am getting my track where they will be no problems with the big AC's.
Russell
You would think for the money they get, these locomotives would be better....
My 50 year old Rivarossi pizza cutters still run perfect and never derail or sputter - before I spend $500 bucks on a loco, I want to make sure it runs right!!
I appreciate all the info on this post - I hope BLI is reading them!!
Wig
andrechapelon Their RTR B&O cabooses cost $60.00 - they quality check EVERY car after it gets here from China - that's a lot of work!That's a big part of why they are $60.00. Sheldon But Sheldon, model trains are supposed to be simultaneously CHEAP and of the HIGHEST QUALITY.. We can't expect people to spend $60 on a caboose that shouldn't cost more than the inflation adjusted price of an Athearn caboose model that's been around since the 1950's, whose original price was $1.98 and whose tooling costs should have long ago been amortized. The current MSRP ($24.98) for the RTR caboose is about 50% above the inflation adjusted price of the kit in 1957 (paint and graphics much, much better than then). Athearn, naturally, is still decorating these things for railroads whose cabeese were considerably different in appearance. I have to admit I absolutely refuse to pay $60 for one of the Spring Mills cabeese. OTOH, the reason for my refusal is not that the price is $60, but because the prototype is B&O. Then again, I won't pay $70 for an Athearn Genesis C50-7 caboose even though it's SP, again not because of the price, but because it's outside my era of interest. Now if Athearn wants to make a C30-4 and decorate some of its production for the appearance of said cabeese as they appeared around 1952, they'd at least pique my interest. Andre
Well, I don't buy much high end RTR rolling stock, but I did spring for a few of the these since I do model the B&O in that era.
I also bought 4 of them as undecorated kits for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and they were $10 less. $50, and I actually have to build them - imagine that.
One thing that no one seems to have mentioned, is the expected life span of the new plastic locomotives, both steam and diesel. At the LHS that I serve as the train repairman, I don't know how many diesels, regular steamers, and articulateds, from BLI and MTH that I've had to replace the drive train in, due to the parts not being strong enough to take the punishment. I don't remember the number that we've sent back to the factory for repair straight out of the box for different problems especially with electronics. I have repaired more than my share. We also sell brass there, and we've never had more than 1-2 to come in for repair a year. Most of those are due to details getting knocked off, or the drive connectors drying out.
I personally will never own any of these new locos, except for Bachmann/Spectrums, and right now I only have 2. They seemed to have kept everything simple in their construction, making them easy to repair and we all know KISS is the best policy. But even then, I'm still not sure of their real durability. One thing that I have always liked to point out to some modelers is that I have brass locos that run extremely well, are DCC equipped and are 10-20 years older than they are. And whats even better, for me at least, once I fix, tweak, tune up, whatever you want to call it, a brass loco, I don't have to do it again. I have locos from the early 1960's that look just as good as these new plastic ones, and all I ever done to them was to put a decent can motor in them and occasionally a gearbox. They ARE that rugged. From what I've seen and worked on, very few, if any of the newer locos will last 15 years must less 50.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
cjcrescent One thing that no one seems to have mentioned, is the expected life span of the new plastic locomotives, both steam and diesel. At the LHS that I serve as the train repairman, I don't know how many diesels, regular steamers, and articulateds, from BLI and MTH that I've had to replace the drive train in, due to the parts not being strong enough to take the punishment. I don't remember the number that we've sent back to the factory for repair straight out of the box for different problems especially with electronics. I have repaired more than my share. We also sell brass there, and we've never had more than 1-2 to come in for repair a year. Most of those are due to details getting knocked off, or the drive connectors drying out. I personally will never own any of these new locos, except for Bachmann/Spectrums, and right now I only have 2. They seemed to have kept everything simple in their construction, making them easy to repair and we all know KISS is the best policy. But even then, I'm still not sure of their real durability. One thing that I have always liked to point out to some modelers is that I have brass locos that run extremely well, are DCC equipped and are 10-20 years older than they are. And whats even better, for me at least, once I fix, tweak, tune up, whatever you want to call it, a brass loco, I don't have to do it again. I have locos from the early 1960's that look just as good as these new plastic ones, and all I ever done to them was to put a decent can motor in them and occasionally a gearbox. They ARE that rugged. From what I've seen and worked on, very few, if any of the newer locos will last 15 years must less 50.
Cary,
I guess that has a lot to do with how many hours you put on them?
If you have three locos, and you play with them a lot, you might rack up a lot of hours quickly.
But if you have 103 locos, and you play about the same amount, but spread it over the whole fleet, you will not put many hours on them.
No doubt many brass locos, or older die cast locos, have more durable mechanisms, but unless you are running a muesum display, I can't see that many people "wearing them out".
Abuse is another issue.........
Edited...
Actually most recently produced brass engines (recent as even in the last 20 years) that I've ever run personally ran quite well.
My roster is currently small--four BLI E units--so they are getting a lot of run time, with no problems, but they're only diesels...
Reinforcements are on order...
I have found these these to be well designed and operate flawlessly out of the box. The darn thing cost $98.00.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam I have found these these to be well designed and operate flawlessly out of the box. The darn thing cost $98.00.
My grand children have yet to break or wear out any of their Thomas the Tank Engine battery operated TrackMaster trains. We have had a large collection of them for over 5 years now. I recently had to disassemble and clean Thomas after he inadvertently made a trip outside tothe sand box - but a good claening and oiling, and new Durcel, and he keeps right on going!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Cary, I guess that has a lot to do with how many hours you put on them? If you have three locos, and you play with them a lot, you might rack up a lot of hours quickly. But if you have 103 locos, and you play about the same amount, but spread it over the whole fleet, you will not put many hours on them. No doubt many brass locos, or older die cast locos, have more durable mechanisms, but unless you are running a muesum display, I can't see that many people "wearing them out". Abuse is another issue......... Sheldon
I guess that depends on what you consider abuse. My first brass engine definitely got "abused". Its a 1962 Akane USRA light 2-10-2, and for the first ten years I owned it, it got run more than any other loco I had. It could run only on the club layout in Mobile, Al, where I lived at the time and it would run at our shows just about all day everyday. Some of our shows were anywhere from 3-10 days long 12-14 hours a day. It ran at those and ran extremely well.I still have the loco and the only real work that I've ever done to it is I removed its original Pittman motor, installed a can and DCC. There's a lot to be said for steel gears, brass bearing supports and bronze bearings. These parts are still original. I can remove the gears and this mech will roll effortlessly across a piece of glass, being pulled by a thread tied to the pilot.
Now if you only run a loco 1 hour a week, it may last a long time, but given the problems I've seen in locos that are less than 2 years old, and according to their owners not run much, I'm really leery of most of this "plastic brass". mth is a prime example. They have put as much weight on the drivers as they could, but esp with articulateds, the drive is connected to each engine with very thin plastic shafts/universals that I've seen twisted almost to the breaking point. A new design on the shaft, with a substitute of some kind of metal would greatly improve the longevity. Also the gears they use are thinner than the gears I've seen in brass, and many of these are showing damage because the thinner gears can't take the torque. P2K steamers are also "guilty" of this. I've also seen the gears on the Bachmann/Spectrum 2-8-0 get badly cupped, because the plastic axle gear is too soft to take the pressure. However, unlike the majority of the other manufacturers, Bachmann did take steps to improve this situation. Bachmann has kept to the principle of KISS. Their equipment is almost as easy to work on as brass and even though I only own 2 Spectrums, they have my respect.
I've worked on locos of all types, too long to be impressed by most of this new plastic. IMHO, the "plastic brass" from bli, mth, athearn, and rivarossi isn't as good as real brass, and I'll take real brass any day.
Carey,I have Athearn BB engines that nearing 40 years old that still runs with little maintenance.
I use my older BB engines at the club during open houses and the week of the county fair and have zero problems.
A simple old drive design from the 60s is still a durable workhorse.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Same here.
I converted my grandson's locos to DCC, and they run flawlessly. Have yet to see a lemon.
Rich
Alton Junction
I think we sometimes forget that these new-fangled locos with DCC and sound are pretty sophisticated mechanisms, and subject to so very many possibilities of stuff to go wrong.
Being a bit on the older side, I recall that for decades the model locos were basic electric motors with relatively simple gear configurations to get the power to the wheels. If something broke, it was easy for us to figure out the problem. And because they were "simple", they really lasted a long time with just the basic of care. In example, think the old Athearn locos - rubber band or gear drive.
All that being said, todays locos are really pretty good as a whole. There WILL be problems, but as long as the manufacturers/distributors stand behind them, well that is about all we can realistically expect.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44 I think we sometimes forget that these new-fangled locos with DCC and sound are pretty sophisticated mechanisms, and subject to so very many possibilities of stuff to go wrong. Being a bit on the older side, I recall that for decades the model locos were basic electric motors with relatively simple gear configurations to get the power to the wheels. If something broke, it was easy for us to figure out the problem. And because they were "simple", they really lasted a long time with just the basic of care. In example, think the old Athearn locos - rubber band or gear drive. All that being said, todays locos are really pretty good as a whole. There WILL be problems, but as long as the manufacturers/distributors stand behind them, well that is about all we can realistically expect.
Well Said
Joe C
BRAKIE Carey,I have Athearn BB engines that nearing 40 years old that still runs with little maintenance. I use my older BB engines at the club during open houses and the week of the county fair and have zero problems. A simple old drive design from the 60s is still a durable workhorse.
Brakie, I'm sure that there are some modelers with some older Athearn around. But how many modelers that have been in the hobby as long as you and I have, have stables of locomotives, where the average age of the locos is over 25 years. Granted the Athearn Mech was bulletproof, and extremely rugged, but how many of those Athearns, from the 60's & 70's, are still around that have as many hours of operations on them that the majority of my brass engines have had. Even Athearn Celon (sp) gears wore out.
The newest brass loco I have is a Key 2-8-2, built in the 1979-1982 timeframe. I bought it from a collector, who never ran it. The plastic around the loco was still sealed with some tape. The oldest loco I have gotten is a USRA 0-8-0, which was built in 1961. There is no plating left on the drivers, but it still runs like a swiss watch. Of all my "newer" locos, the newest is from 1979, which is a Key USRA Light 2-10-2. It has maybe 1/4 the run time as the Akane 2-10-2.
The point about all these older brass locos is this. They all have rugged enough mechanisms that allow you to add weight for balancing and to allow them to pull more without straining any part of the drive train. They were built to operate. These newer "plastic brass", as I call them, from bli, mth, rivarossi, do not have the ruggedness built in that the older brass does. On an articulated locomotive that might have about 1/3 more weight on its drivers that a brass equivalent does, the driveline connectors, (universals for example), are anywhere from 1/2 to 1/4 the size of the ones in the equivalent brass articulated, plus they are made of plastic, whereas the brass loco's are made of steel or brass components. After doing repairs on those particular brands I've named, I just don't think the majority of them will last.
mobilman44 ... There WILL be problems, but as long as the manufacturers/distributors stand behind them, well that is about all we can realistically expect.
... There WILL be problems, but as long as the manufacturers/distributors stand behind them, well that is about all we can realistically expect.
While what mobilman44 says in his post is very true, but considering the "problems" (both real and imagined), that we keep hearing about these importers on this very forum, doesn't it make you wonder how much longer are these importers going to be around to do the warranty work on these mechanisms? In the past, brass, like Athearn, was never sold with a warranty. The construction was simple enough that again, as mobilman44 says, we could figure it out and fix what was broken. Now with the sophistication of these engines, most folks can't do that anymore, and from what I see, very few hobby new comers want to learn how to do it.
Well, I do have a BLI 2-6-6-4 that runs good and negotiates 22 inch r curves. Doesn't like the smaller radii turnouts though, but it is.. after all... a very large steamer.
Jarrell
Why do we USers think we get paid better than less developed countries. One might wish to add all the healthcare, taxes and both overt and hidden fees paid and one may find the actual monies left to purchase are less than 20% of take home. Add in the horrendous US currency devaluation and the less developed employee who pays none of this has more spendable income. The greatest expense is transportation, not labor, and this is why many US and Chinese companies are bringing production back to the US slave workers--this includes toy train manufacturers. Can you say please in Mandarin?
Can you say please in Mandarin?
Please, Qing, Thank You, XieXie..
OK, name just one train manufacturer in the U.S. who is bringing production back here?
The one I'm most familiar with does indeed make some parts here--but ships those very parts to China for assembly and painting--then ships finished models back.
Isn't Kadee made in the USA?
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Kadee is family owned, and yes, is made in the USA. However, they don't do locomotives, and most of their products were tooled quite some years ago, and most freight car releases at this point are re-releases of even previously produced Kadee freight cars. They do change the road numbers and reweigh dates...but even their "new" releases are minor side sill variations of previously produced freight car models.
They did not bring production back to the USA, because they never left in the first place. They are indeed the last "shining example" of made (and actually assembled) in the USA, that I am aware of.
So, again, who is bringing production back?
Two or three other companies make the parts here and then ship them somewhere else for assembly.
Hello there,
I purchased a 2014 BLI atsf 4-8-4 northern with Paragon 2 sound with sync smoke.
The smoke and chuffing sound do not work. The horn, bell and other sounds work well. It is under warranty. I have only ran it once. I made sure all connections where right and correct, plus made sure there was the proper amount of smoke fluid.
I have wrote to customer service about this problem, no response yet.
The original runs of the PRR M1a/b and I-1 both have splitting gear problems. Amount of run time has nothing to do with the gear splitting. Gears are made of Delrin and as Delrin ages it shrinks slightly. You put a gear on a metal axle and the delrin shrinks so something has to give and it's the gear. The split starts at the axle and works its way out to the teeth. Later runs of both engines have either a different plastic being used or the axle hole has been increased enough to make up for the shrinkage.
The perfect HO steamer would have all driver axles geared to one another so the side rods would be there just for show. Since most manufacturers use the rods to drive the non geared axles some lubrication is needed to decrease wear on the rods and crankpins. I use Neolube on mine 1-2 times per year. It's graphite in a water based solution. I paint the entire valve gear with it . So far once the axle gear splitting has been taken care of no more road failures on my PRR fleet. --------- Ken
The only problem i have with the BLI AC6000CW locomotive is the gear tower,they are off set onto the trucks that causes derailments in curves and curve Peco turnouts.