RR Car Ferry Project

[fmilhaupt]

Bear, your ferry gets my vote for "Best Installation of a Peco Turnout" for 2014, even if the year is a bit young.

[Kyle]

On the trains magizine website, they mention ferry operations, and if I remember correctly, some railroads prevented locomotives from going on to the ferries for safety reasons, and they would have several empty cars in between the locomotive and the cars going on the ferry, so the locomotive would not get on the ferry.

["JaBear"]

fmilhaupt

......."Best Installation of a Peco Turnout".....

Gidday Fritz, in my last post I mentioned, “that every task takes at the very least 3 times longer than I initially think”. Well getting the filler to blend in, and  look neat and tidy without gumming up the works is taking longer.

Kyle, it’s well worth inserting this link again as it shows the use of idler cars   .... http://teamtrack.soforums.com/t625-CAR-FERRY-around-MICHIGAN-State.htm

I am still trying to find out the actual sequence of how the Detroit River Ferries were loaded and unloaded, was all the cars taken off and new cars loaded, or was one ferry track emptied and filled before moving to the next??? Anyhow “with Care” would have been the operative words as in The Great Lakes Car Ferries, by George W Hilton there are photos of the St. Ignace and the Ann Arbor No:4, both Lake Car Ferries, the former sunk at the slip and the latter capsized, as a result of incorrect loading of iron ore cars. 

 

During my research on ferry operations I have came across photos of locomotives on the car floats / ferries particularly in the New York region, though, and, of course I can’t find it again, a Geep 7 or 9 on a car float somewhere in, if my memory serves me correctly which it doesn’t all the time, the Pacific Northwest.

Thanks for your comments,

Cheers, the Bear.

 

[fmilhaupt]

I can't answer the loading sequence question with anything other than speculation, but given how important it was that the boats maintain a more-or-less even keel so that they can match up with the apron at the far end, I'd have expected them to have been emptied, then re-loaded so they could keep an eye on the amount of list to either side.

Capt. Hannifan, one of the captains of one of the NS Detroit River ferries attended an operating session that my group held a couple of years ago.

He told of a trip he took from Windsor to Detroit back in the 1970s (when it was an N&W boat) when the load wasn't balanced very well laterally-- too many heavy cars were loaded on one side of the ferry. As a result, it had so severe a list to one side that they could not get the apron on the Detroit side to match up.

Their solution was to go back to Windsor and have the crew that loaded the ferry figure out how to fix the problem they caused. He said that it involved block and tackle and lots of cursing.

I'll see whether I can get hold of him (he's a friend of an friend) and ask.

As for keeping motive power off of the boats, they could definitely send locomotives across (as you've seen), they just had to be careful loading. The issue wasn't the amount of weight itself, but how concentrated the weight was, on a shorter wheelbase.

The Ann Arbor exchanged locomotives between the AA at Frankfort and the Manistique & Lake Superior at Manistique whenever the M&LS' power needed major servicing work that the M&LS couldn't handle itself.

The C&O and the GTW each kept a locomotive at Milwaukee to unload their ferries. When they needed major servicing, or just to be rotated out for other power, they'd go across the lake on one of the big boats.

If I remember correctly, the CP kept a couple of its CLC-built road switchers around longer than they might have because they had greater clearance beneath their traction motors than the GMD and MLW-built locomotives. This was useful for the ferry service on Kootenay Lake in British Columbia, where the diesel would ride the ferry to reach the trackage at the far end. Several published photos show an H16-44 (or similar locomotive) creeping across a partially-submerged apron to board the ferry for the ride up the lake.

This wouldn't have happened regularly at Detroit-Windsor, however, since the CN and CP switched the ferries on the Canadian side, while the GTW, C&O and N&W (or GTW, PM and Wabash, earlier) switched the ferries on the Detroit side. Each road provided its own locomotives.

 

["JaBear"]

Gidday Fritz, your reply is much appreciated. Even though I’m freelancing the car ferry and operations, with the likely hood of anyone who served on or even saw a Detroit car ferry in operation visiting my layout is up there with similar odds to winning the lottery, I find the more I get into a project like this the more I find interesting and would like to know.

 The trouble is that in their day the Detroit car ferry operations were just a routine daily occurrence, and like so many other jobs, considered not worth recording by those carrying out the tasks, that is if they could be bothered after a hard days work, and who outside the job would be interested anyway?  I suspect that this problem would not be new to you considering your work with the Pere Marquette Historical Society.

Once again, any information received is greatly appreciated,

Thanks and Cheers, the Bear.

[MisterBeasley]

I built 3 Tichy flatcars to use as "idler flats" on my carfloat scene:

I built the Walthers carfloat and apron kits.  You can see the flatcars beyond the tankers.  I found I needed 3 of them to reach the cars on the carfloat without letting the engine get on the apron.

In theory, if the engine never goes on the apron, then you don't need to power either the apron tracks or the carfloat tracks.  I did the apron anyway, as it was a small job, but the carfloat is not wired.  The Walthers kit actually comes with plastic rail, not metal.  I replaced that with metal rails, though, to reduce rolling friction and make the job of pulling the strings of cars easier.  I also took great care to keep the approach tracks, apron and carfloat dead level.

[rws1225]

Somewhere I have seen information regarding the balancing of the load.  On a 3 track ferry the sequence is half of one outside track; all of the center track; all of the other outside track; and finally the rest of the first outside track.  I watched the Pere Marquette ferry in Port Huron, MI in the 60s but the memory is dim.

I saw something similar on the 4 track lake Michigan ferries of AA and C&O in the 70s.  There are videos of loading/unloading Ann Arbor boats; I think I got one from AA Techincal & Historical Society.

[Flynn]

Rs1225 is correct on the loading sequence for the Detroit river ferries.   They had three track decks with two track aprons if I recall correctly.   NO locomotives on the aprons or the ferry though. 

The Lake Michigan ferries had four track decks by and large.  Their loading sequence was very similar.  Half on one center track and then full on the other center.  Finish the first center half and repeat for the outer tracks.  Again, idler cars only on the apron or ferry.  Loading sequences did require some coordination of car weights too.  Hope that helps.

 

["JaBear"]

Gidday rws1225 and Flynn, thank you both for your input.

The River Ferries Pere Marquette #14, 12, and 10 had three tracks, with a car capacity of 30 for #14, and 27 for both #12 and 10, where as the Wabash Manitowoc, Windsor and, Detroit, had four tracks, with a car capacity of 32, though the Detroit was originally built with three tracks.

Google maps still show the two “intact” 3 tracked Wabash apronsand the concrete remnants of, I presume, the Pere Marquette apron approximately 200 yards downstream.

 There are some reasonably good photos of the Wasbash Detroit aprons and yard, but not the Pere Marquette, or a  general over view. Still I should be grateful for what’s available.

Couldn't load more than 27,.

 

 Thanks again, Cheers, the Bear.

[rws1225]

Bear, keep in mind that the capacities shown in Hilton's book are "as built" often with much shorter cars than in later days.

[Flynn]

I might have a few photos of the PM aprons in Detroit and Windsor on another computer at home. If I can find them, I'll PM you.  It looks like you're modeling a Wabash river ferry though.  Any particular one?  

["JaBear"]

rws1225 , that cheers me up, I had wondered about car size, especially looking at that Shorpy photo I had linked to earlier in this thread.

Flynn, even though I believe that plans maybe obtainable, I am building a freelanced composite of the Windsor and Detroit (4 track version), partially because of time, but mainly because if I had plans, I would feel obliged to try for a museum quality model which I question my abilities to carry out.  It would be different if I was modelling the Wabash instead of a freelanced road.

Thanks again Gents,

Cheers, the Bear.

P.S. I did get some more done on the apron today.

["JaBear"]

Well a bit more of an update, I’ve now got to the stage where I consider that the apron can now go into storage.  I’m reasonably happy how it’s turned out, may do some more weathering after final assembly.

 

 

 

 

 

But I do have a question, in George W. Hiltons The Great Lakes Car Ferries there is a picture of the attaching mechanism on both the Lake ferry Badger and the apron. Did the Detroit River car ferries use the same or similar mechanism Or did they just use mooring ropes

 

 

I’ve now started on the apron counter weights, not sure if that’s the right terminology, and of course I have another question. In the closer up photos I have found of, presumably the aprons on the Detroit side, there appears what I think looks like a hydraulic ram about half way down the weighted arm. Am I right, if so was it used to help raise and lower the apron, or as a shock absorber, or am I barking up the completely wrong tree

I am continuing on regardless, like I have said before, it’s highly unlikely anyone who’s actually seen the Detroit Car Ferris in action will see my layout, but I would like to do it reasonably right and am also curious.

 

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

I see it’s been 9 months since I last posted here and while the pace has been glacial, I have achieved just enough to warrant an update.

The counter weight mechanisms have progressed. As you can see I’ve guesstimated the scale from the available photos, and Google maps.

 

 

I got to this stage of construction when I happened to find on Google Street View a side on view of the counter weights on the Windsor side, complete with people in the foreground to help as a reference, where upon I reckoned that my dimensions are a bit on the small side and that’s when work ceased on that part of the project while I contemplated a starting again.

 

 

I guess I’m allowed to nitpick my own work, but I should really harden up and get over it as it would appear that there is no standard design as every railroad seemed to have at least one design of their own, and while similar, even the two survivors at Windsor are different. As already noted, the pace has been slow, I don’t need to make excuses to procrastinate further.

 

 

I made these hatch covers for the coal bunkers and access to the boiler room, while I have photos of the Detroit, and a small plan for the Pere Marquette # 10 and 14, it is not really clear on which hatch is used for what or the construction of the hatch covers, so I’ve guessed again using the logic (???) that the coal bunkers would be amidships to minimise any changes to the ferry’s trim as the coal was consumed. I started playing with the funnel and supporting structure at the same time.

Does anyone have an idea on coal consumption, and was the ash taken off in a gondola or just dumped overboard? While my idea for the ferry was as a form of interchange, I hadn’t considered that servicing the boat would require operational movements in its own right.

 

 

I dithered over how to make the cowl ventilators, in fact I went completely off the boil, so to speak, and started on the truss rod idler flats, but having had some encouragement to think outside the box I am quite pleased with the result which has had the bonus of renewing my enthusiasm for the ferry itself again, so have recently completed the ladders I require for the funnels and supporting superstructure.

 

 

Thanks for looking,

 Cheers, the Bear.   

PS. I hope Karle has made better progress.

[Marc_Magnus]

Nice work and nice scratchbuilding.

I did the same years ago in Nscale, a copy of the car ferry Anabel of the late John Allen.

It started by clothing a Legoship whith wood and details and a modified hull,the result wa a price winning model in Nscale.

The picture below show it.

 

["JaBear"]

Gidday Marc, your kind remark is appreciated. I must applaud you not only for your prize winning ferry, but also your innovative use of Lego. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers, the Bear.

[Marc_Magnus]

Gidday Marc, your kind remark is appreciated. I must applaud you not only for your prize winning ferry, but also your innovative use of Lego. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers, the Bear.

 

Thank you for your answer, after some research I have found this more close picture of the Anabel Ferry, I will do some others in the coming days, showing the Lego hull and more close details to share them.

Cheers, Marc

 

["JaBear"]

Well I’ve been threatening a catch up and here it is. Those of you who have a look at WPF will have seen these before, so sorry nothing new.

Putting the ladders to use......

 

 

...after attaching the crows’ nests......

 

 

....a coat of paint and a trial fit....

 

 

... starting one of the rear superstructures...

 

 

...another trial fit and have you spotted my mistake????

 

 

The things we do for fun, 180 + stanchions later....

 

 

....more superstructure and trial fits....

 

 

....... and even more superstructure and another trial fit.

 

 

So what was my mistake? Well when I was setting up the track and funnel superstructure, I used a 40’ Athearn BB box car as my clearance test car. Stupid especially as I had accessed photos that clearly showed 50 footers, and TOFC cars on board. So I had to chamfer the front corners of the forward funnel support, and reposition the ladder to get the required clearance.

Of course if I had had this photo.....

http://rockontrains.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/cnr-depot-and-ferry-dock-windsor-ont.jpg

.......I would have narrowed everything up, I did consider it but then I would have to relay the track and to gain 3/32” extra clearance, no thanks.

One of the many good things about that photo is that, if the accepted date is 1953, I don’t have to model the “hydraulic ram on the weighted arm of the apron counterweight mechanism.

The use of the passenger cars to test clearance was brought about by gmpullmans reminisce on his 1973 experience of crossing the Detroit River on a GWT ferry in a C&O private car. Though 1973 is far in advance of my modelled era, I wondered if the Lachlan River RR ferry had the clearance to cope with such a request. It can but do not go sticking yer head outa the window!!

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.

[zstripe]

JaBear,

Looking good Bear. Fast or slow.. The climb...is just as important as getting to the top of the Mountain...sometimes, more so.

I have spent many an hour, testing, fitting and getting to the final result....only to learn that I put them together in the wrong sequence.....now they won't fit. LOL

Take Care! 

Frank

["JaBear"]

Thanks Frank, trouble is patience is Not my strong suit and as a consequence I sometimes getGRUMPY!  

Cheers, the Bear.

[zstripe]

JaBear,

I can understand that...but over the year's I have developed a extreme amount of patience. I just think of my Dad..God rest His soul....He was like a bull in a china closet when it came to patience.  Not to mention, temper. Never wanted to be around Him, when He got,** angry.

Have A Good One...And New Year! 

Frank

["JaBear"]

Update time again.

Even though w**k has been keeping me busy, I’ve surprised myself by how much I’ve actually got done, though nowhere as much as I would have liked.

Still got the shell of the wheelhouse done...on Flickr

 

...and some details for the roof.

 

on Flickr

 

From time to time I put Foreman Fred in my photos to provide not only some light relief but also scale. At the very least I was going to put a wheel in the wheel house and as I haven’t come across any photos of the interiors of the Detroit River Car ferries wheelhouses, there are photos in this aforementioned site........

http://teamtrack.soforums.com/t625-CAR-FERRY-around-MICHIGAN-State.htm

........ of the bridge of  “SS Chief Wawatam”. So I scaled the wheel depicted to look about right with Foreman Fred and made it. Now this is where “assume” has made an ass out of me.  I now discovered that Foreman Fred is not an HO figure but an OO figure, and if you think that an extra half millimetre (0.019”) to the foot doesn’t matter, well if you were modelling an HO scale NBA team it wouldn’t!

 

on Flickr

 

So I have since reworked the wheel and found a new HO helmsman Frank.

“Why Frank” you may well ask? Well over in WPF 13-15 March zstripe made this comment “..... and that wheel house is just begging for a detailed interior....sorta like Northeastern strip wood paneling for the walls/floor....WOW!”.  My initial thought was WHAT!!!!  Besides apart from  the helmsman, wheel and the Captain, that’s all the detailing I’m intending to do, after all unless I take another close up photo who is going to look that closely anyway? And besides little parts don’t suit Bears paws!!

However I replied along the lines that as the directors of the Lachlan River RR were descended from canny Scots immigrants, there’d be none of this extravagant wood panelling nonsense.

But as a lot of the positive forum threads tend to do, I have been inspired to push my boundaries and try harder.

 The results so far.....

 

on Flickr

 

on Flickr

Any helpful comments, thoughts, or constructive criticism are welcome.

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.  

[Santa Fe all the way!]

Looking very nice. As my hobbies include both model railroading and model ships, this project is of particular interest to me. Keep the updates coming.

["JaBear"]

Common sense finally won out and I've now made enough of the Radial type Davit.

While I hold great stock with the use of common sense in the work place, I think in that in this quote, I was using the words “common sense” instead of laziness.

Especially in light of what I said in my last reply, “But as a lot of the positive forum threads tend to do, I have been inspired to push my boundaries and try harder”.

So as the photos appear to show a type of quadrantal davit, here goes....

 

on Flickr

 

....and as my own worst critic, even though it needs a tidy up, I’m pleased with the result, now just have to complete five more.

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.

[mlehman]

Bear,

Was rereading this to remind myself of the discussion and seeing you great boat coming together. Had something to add to the numbers of lifeboats required on the Detroit River and elsehwere in the US, as well as some ferry's having larger number if room to accomodate ever one.

First, crossing the Detroit River is an international crossing that might have forced a more stringent requirement for number of lifeboats carried. For some boats with the extra life boats, I think the speculation that this increase was due to the regular carriage of passengers is also the most likely explanation.

It was also a time of rapid change in safety requirements, driven by many diisasters. Everyone remembers the Titanic, but I think there were more than 4,000 ships lost on the Great Lakes between 1860 and 1880, so lots of public pressure to do something despite the influence of the shipping companies. Wasn't just freight, lots of passengers, too. Check out the intro to a song by Lee Murdock, "The Persia's Crew," on his Lee Murdock in Concert: Great Lakes Chronicle with the Blue Water Band (Depot Recordings, 1998). I've listened to it a lot while working on the layout over the years. Great oldtimey music done in modern popular style.

[hon30critter]

Nice detail!

I have to admit that I have never seen one before. Can I ask how they worked?

Dave

["JaBear"]

hon30critter

Can I ask how they worked?

Gidday Dave, I struggled to identify what sort of davit was used and to be fair am still only 80% sure, and it also took me quite a while to work out how they worked. As I just mentioned in the Operating Brakes thread, it helps if I ask Mr Google the right question.

Here’s a definition from the Dictionary of Naval Terms.

“Quadrantal Davit: A boat davit in which the lower end of the arm is a steel quadrant fitted with gear teeth and the appropriate mechanism for cranking out the arm and lowering the boat.”

If you go to page 20 at this site, there is a diagram.....

http://www.maritime.org/doc/merchant/prelim/index.htm

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

Gidday Mike, I had to have a listen to Lee Murdock before replying, I didn’t hear the particular song but I think the daughter has itunes so will remedy that the next time I see her.

Looking not only from the other side of the world but also back in a foreign history I don’t think, even now, I fully comprehend how important a transportation system the Great Lakes has provided for the local native tribes right through to today. Size is also hard to comprehend; Lake Superior alone has about the surface area of half the South Island! I only discovered during my research that the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company who built the Manitowoc for the Wabash RR also built, amongst other craft, 28 fleet submarines for the USN during WW2.

I did come across an aerial photo taken late 40s early 50s of the Detroit River in the vicinity of the ferry crossings and was surprised to see how much traffic, and the size of some of the ships. George W. Hiltons “The Great Lakes Car Ferries” refers to collisions and even a sinking but when considering the amount of traffic, the bad weather during the winter months and that the ferries were cutting across the flow of traffic, seamanship (should that be rivermanship?) obviously came to the fore. I wish I had bookmarked that photo.

The photos of the Windsor and Manitowoc show two lifeboats, I’m still trying to identify if there are any rafts, but I suspect by then whole passenger trains complete with passengers were not moved by the river ferries. The reason I’m going to have 3 is because all three I built turned out OK.

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

Thanks for the reference Bear. Now I understand how they worked and what they were used for. I hadn't associated it with the lifeboat immediately behind it. Duh.

Dave

["JaBear"]

Gidday, time for another update.

How to do the railings was bugging me, the top rail was easy, just thread through the eye in the stanchions and solder. (Though the words solder and easy don’t really go together in the Bears vocabulary).

To confuse the issue I found photos that showed the “Manitiwoc” with only two rails, but I had already decided to go with the “Windsor’s” three rails. Sowith typical cussedness not only did I ignore the easier option but then made things even harder by deciding to make three holding jigs/heat sinks. Now when just using hand tools I find making two similar items challenging especially when those items require a degree of accuracy,  three was a step too far for me. However two was all I actually required.

Note: for the stanchions and the railings I used .020” brass rod, probably not that accurate but.........

 

on Flickr

 

I’m glad I took the time to make the jigs, because the job was reasonably easy, that is to say there was very Little use of undesirable language and only one attempt ay branding myself.

Allan from the Black River Valley RR used the word Tedium when I posted this photo in WPF regarding progress on the railing soldering, actually satisfaction was the word I used, the Tedium occurred while painting the railings. Aaaarrghhh!!!

 

on Flickr

 

So for a change from the tedium, and as I was in the mood, I decided to make some detail parts I require, namely 10 life buoys, 4 bitts, 4 fairleads, and 4 capstans. Now I’ve already mentioned the challenge of making two similar items so more can be even more so, especially when I wear 3.25 x spectacles when working on the finer stuff. With that sort of magnification I tend to fixate on every small flaw that is hard to see especially when the “Three Foot Rule” is in place. It also helps when Her-in-doors casually remarks “they look good” as she walks past. (Lucky to have met that girl!!! Even luckier she puts up with me!!!)

 

on Flickr 

 

 

In this last photo I’ve started to put the various items in their proper place.

 

on Flickr 

 

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.