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Kadee Problem.

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  • From: Northern Minnesota
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Posted by NP2626 on Saturday, May 4, 2013 9:00 PM

I maybe need to clarify something.  I mentioned that this particular problem has happened to me before, maybe it was even this particular coupler that gave me a problem. Over the past year, I have had this problem with 2-3 cars, one of them was a caboose, so it wasn't this one, which is a reefer. 

Because I have never keep track of these problems, this time has prompted me to write down what car it was, so if it happens again with this car, I will swop out the coupler next time.

I agree CSXNS, Kadee couplers are the best!  I feel what is going on here has more to do with conditions in my basement than any quality problem Kadee has.

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by RogerThat on Saturday, May 4, 2013 9:17 PM

I see a lot of people asking if the op was sure it was a Kadee coupler. My question is how can you tell a Kadee from the other brands. I have a container with several compartments I have kept Kadee and other brand couplers . I have compared the various brands and don't see any distinguishing features. Is there a sure way to identify the Kadee? I would like to dispose of the other brands but not sure which ones they are.

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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, May 5, 2013 3:27 AM

ROERTHAT,

If it's hard for you,to tell the difference,between,Kadee's and other couplers,,,take a magnet and put it in your container of couplers and nine times out of ten,the couplers,you have on the magnet,will be ,Kadee's,for they are all metal....

Cheers,

Frank

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:01 AM

zstripe

ROERTHAT,

If it's hard for you,to tell the difference,between,Kadee's and other couplers,,,take a magnet and put it in your container of couplers and nine times out of ten,the couplers,you have on the magnet,will be ,Kadee's,for they are all metal....

Cheers,

Frank

Not all Kadee couplers are metal, some are plastic.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:19 AM

Rich,

If what you say is true,,,For I havn't bought any couplers in years,still have too many left,unused,,#5'S,#58"S,SOME special ones....IF what you say,which I don't doubt,is true,,,I WOULD NOT BUY THEM ANYWAY,,,just my opinion....

Cheers,

Frank

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Posted by NP2626 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:32 AM

zstripe

ROERTHAT,

If it's hard for you,to tell the difference,between,Kadee's and other couplers,,,take a magnet and put it in your container of couplers and nine times out of ten,the couplers,you have on the magnet,will be ,Kadee's,for they are all metal....

Cheers,

Frank

Frank, The glad hands on all modern knuckle couplers are made of steel and will be attracted by the magnet, this is what allows the magnets on; or, under the track to uncouple cars, so a magnet is not a sure-fire way to determine if they are Kadees.  Furthermore the body of Kadee Couplers are made from non-ferrous metals (Pot Metal?) which are not attracted to a magnet anyway.

With the Kadee Clones on the market, it has become difficult to determine what is a Kadee and what isn't.  Accumate couplers are easy to tell as they come as two separate parts.  Another tell-tale is the tiny spring on the side of the coupler; but, this doesn't eliminate all of the clones as some also have springs.  Maybe the best way to tell is to hold one that you know for sure is a Kadee in one hand and compare it to the one in question.  Here is a website that discusses the Kadee clones: 

http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/clones.htm

Now that Kadee has come out with couplers with the whisker centering springs, it might be even more difficult to tell them apart.  

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:42 AM

Frank,

I am not sure why Kadee has plastic couplers in its product line, but all 9 of the standard head type couplers have plastic counterparts.

For example, the metal #5 medium centerset shank, Kadee's most popular coupler, can also be purchased as a #28 or #38 plastic medium centerset shank coupler.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:48 AM

zstripe

NP2626,

Before,I posted my statement,,I took a,screw driver,that has a magnet,on the end,a small one and it picked up at least,ten,#5's out of the plastic container they were in..Held by knuckles,shanks and trip pins. So,what do you want me to say???

Cheers,

Frank

Frankie, that's because all of the couplers in your container are #5 Kadees - - duh.   Laugh

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by NP2626 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 6:03 AM

Rich & Frank, I think the reason they went with plastic, is to insulate locomotives from each other.  This is only a factor where the chassis is used as a conductor for the DC operation negative side of the motor circuit.  It's also why Kadee offers small plastic screws to mount the coupler boxes with.  

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, May 5, 2013 6:09 AM

NP2626,

Now that makes sense,,,I had completely,forgot,about that fact...

Cheers,

Frank

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Posted by bogp40 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 8:17 AM

NP2626

Rich & Frank, I think the reason they went with plastic, is to insulate locomotives from each other.  This is only a factor where the chassis is used as a conductor for the DC operation negative side of the motor circuit.  It's also why Kadee offers small plastic screws to mount the coupler boxes with.  

The only plastic shank coupler is the 30 series, why?, not sure if it had anything to do w/ electrical isolation as long as the coupler is mounted in a Kadee draft gear box.

I came to find out about the 30 series from adding Kadee #450s close coupling (3ft) to all my Stewart/ Kato Fs. The torsion spring and "odd" coupler box may need some patience and practice to install but gives the absolute best coupler action of any other installations. The 30 and 40 series allows for the greatest combinations of height installation (the 40 being metal shank) Short, medium and long shanks w/ overset, centerset (as in the #5) and the underset, This along with the box position (lid on top or lid on bottom) allows for greatest number of coupler height positions. The small 30 box works on installs where coupler box  will interfere w/ truck

Never had any problem w/ the strength of the 30 (plastic) shank on any of the Stewarts and have pulled some very long trains.

I have come to use the 30 series on a number of locos for its great operation as well as the look of the projecting of the coupler box in relationship to the buffer plate (mainly older GP7-9 and RSs

Modeling B&O- Chessie  Bob K.  www.ssmrc.org

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Posted by NP2626 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 8:32 AM

bogp40

The only plastic shank coupler is the 30 series, why?, not sure if it had anything to do w/ electrical isolation as long as the coupler is mounted in a Kadee draft gear box.

Yes, and how many new folks would know not to use the old Blue Box Athearn coupler box, which gives no insulation what so ever?

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, May 5, 2013 8:43 AM

bogp40,

I installed,the,close coupler, conversion from Kadee,on AB Stewarts,weird set up,,works great though..

Cheers,

Frank

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Posted by bogp40 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 8:52 AM

NP2626

bogp40

The only plastic shank coupler is the 30 series, why?, not sure if it had anything to do w/ electrical isolation as long as the coupler is mounted in a Kadee draft gear box.

Yes, and how many new folks would know not to use the old Blue Box Athearn coupler box, which gives no insulation what so ever?

This is the "beauty" of these Forums, now they would know there is a plastic (isolation) shank to solve the problem. Of coarse I used to cut of the frame lug and body mount, but not everyone will do this. Just makes pilot detailing and plow fitting far better on a BB loco. No need to remove coupler for shell removal and the ugly notch in the pilot can be filled in.

Modeling B&O- Chessie  Bob K.  www.ssmrc.org

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 5, 2013 9:36 AM

bogp40

The only plastic shank coupler is the 30 series

Actually, both the 20-series and the 30-series are plastic couplers.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, May 5, 2013 9:59 AM

Some Kadee couplers are plastic or have plastic shanks because they were made for use on locos with 'hot' frames. If you have two such locos, Athearn blue box is a good example, that have all metal couplers mounted directly on the frames this could present a problem. Coupling them nose to tail there's no problem. However, coupling them tail to tail could produce a short between the frames at the couplers. There are three ways to solve this. Cut off the metal coupler pad and mount a Kadee draft gear box and mount the coupler in that. Cut off the metal coupler mount completely and body mount a Kadee draft gear box and mount the coupler in it. Install a plastic shank coupler. Whichever method is used it solves the problem of hot frames shorting each other out.

Running Bear, Sundown, Louisiana
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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, May 5, 2013 10:24 AM

jeffrey-wimberly
Athearn blue box is a good example, that have all metal couplers mounted directly on the frames this could present a problem. Coupling them nose to tail there's no problem. However, coupling them tail to tail could produce a short between the frames at the couplers.

Indeed..When I first started using KDs in '68 I french fried a pair of knuckle springs..Lesson learned..I isolated the coupler by using a KD washer between the coupler and frame..I wised up in the late 70s and started  using the KD coupler box.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, May 5, 2013 11:31 AM

BRAKIE
When I first started using KDs in '68 I french fried a pair of knuckle springs

French fried. I like that. I made a few red hot curly fries myself back in the 80's.

Running Bear, Sundown, Louisiana
          Joined June, 2004

Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running Bear
Space Mouse for president!
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Running Bear Enterprises
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beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam


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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, May 5, 2013 12:17 PM

Kadee's plastic couplers are also useful for locos with "hot" frames which have no room for the draught gear box.  The pilots of most brass steam locos are normally fitted with cast brass dummy couplers, and a friend with quite a few such locos insisted that they all have working couplers on their pilots, as he often double- or triple-headed steam.
Most such locos needed the dummy coupler removed and its draught gear casting un-soldered from the pilot, to allow enlargement of the pilot opening.  Some, especially switchers, could easily accept a fully-functional Kadee, while others had only enough room for the coupler itself, with no way for it to automatically centre - metal couplers needed, of course, to be insulated, but an insulating washer and a Kadee Delrin screw usually did the trick.  Some locos also required that the trip pin be cut off to clear the pilot.

He had at least a couple of locos where none of these techniques would work without drastically altering the appearance of the loco's front end.   One had a drop coupler (with a fitted-dummy which could be installed in either the operating or dropped position) and another which had a swing coupler, also manually positionable.  I used plastic Kadees (can't remember which) to re-fit both locos, simply shortening the coupler's shank to match that of the dummy's.  After drilling the shortened shank to accept the screw which held the dummy in place, and removing the trip pin, the couplers were installed with no other visible modification to the locos.  Because of the greater size of the Kadee coupler head, neither could could be swung out of the way like the to-scale dummies, but both were operable for coupling.  When running behind another loco, the coupler swing on the lead loco's tender was sufficient to supplement the limited swing of the pilot-mounted ones - probably fortunate that his layout had very broad mainline curves.


Wayne

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Sunday, May 5, 2013 2:51 PM

Going back to the original problem, I follow the same philosophy that the Air Force taught me.

If something is defective, replace it and get the asset back into service.  Then, at your leisure,  inspect, dissect and determine what caused the defect.  If the part can be repaired, do so and return it to stock.  BUT - don't spend ten dollars worth of time playing with a two-buck item.

Kadee couplers WILL suffer from excessive coupler impact - especially if the car landed coupler-down on a hard surface after an off-layout sky dive.  Don't ask how I know this...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by mobilman44 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 3:16 PM

Chuck,

  I could not have said it better myself!

 

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by NP2626 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 4:18 PM

This thread continues to have a life of it's own, which is fine by me.  However, back on page two, I did post that the problem had been resolved:

"Snip" (Problem cured!  A small dab of Marvel's Mystery Oil on the pin and some vigorous working of the action fixed the stickiness of this coupler. 

I'm surprised at how most of you would have simply given up and replaced the coupler!  Total time invested in the two failed attempts and final repair was maybe 5 minutes.  Yes, the cost to replace would have been less than .80 cents.  However, I just don't throw in the towel at the slightest inconvenience and I find pleasure in fixing things.  I guess we truly are a throw away society!)

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:35 PM

NP2626
"Snip" (Problem cured!  A small dab of Marvel's Mystery Oil on the pin and some vigorous working of the action fixed the stickiness of this coupler. 

Yes, you fixed it - for now. How long will this Marvel Mystery Oil 'fix' last? How long before this coupler is a problem again? Will the fix that helped this time help next time? Now as far as being a member of a throwaway society, you must know by now that there's very little that I throw away when it comes to model railroading. When I do throw something away it is truly of no use whatsoever to me. When it comes to couplers however I won't hesitate to throw away one that's causing problems even if an easy 'fix' can make it work again. Such fixes are usually temporary and I found through experience that the best way to keep that coupler and it's problem from coming back to haunt me is to pitch it when the problem rears it's ugly head.

Running Bear, Sundown, Louisiana
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Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running Bear
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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:47 PM

NP2626

This thread continues to have a life of it's own, which is fine by me.  However, back on page two, I did post that the problem had been resolved:

I never have a problem with that.  Often, even though the OP resolves his problem or gets his question answered, the thread inevitably takes twists and turns.  So, it is natural to continue the thread to resolve tangential issues or address related questions.  This thread continues to be interesting, so why end it?

Rich

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Posted by NP2626 on Sunday, May 5, 2013 6:53 PM

Rich,  Certainly I have no intentions of ending it.

Jeffrey-Wemberly, No one knows how long the fix will last. If i fails again, I will toss that coupler away.  As I stated earlier, I have a log on this particular problem, with this car.

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, May 5, 2013 7:02 PM

NP2626
No one knows how long the fix will last. If i fails again, I will toss that coupler away.  As I stated earlier, I have a log on this particular problem, with this car.

That's a wise idea. I keep a log on every loco and car. When it needs annual maintenance, when a periodic wheel cleaning is due if it's been in service. Little things like that. It helps keep unwanted surprises for cropping up.

Running Bear, Sundown, Louisiana
          Joined June, 2004

Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running Bear
Space Mouse for president!
15 year veteran fire fighter
Collector of Apple //e's
Running Bear Enterprises
History Channel Club life member.
beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam


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Posted by mobilman44 on Monday, May 6, 2013 6:01 AM

Hey, I hope the OP didn't include me in the group that "gives up too early"........   In my last post I stated that if it took me longer than 5 minutes to resolve, it gets trashcanned.   With something as relatively simple as a KD, if it takes you longer than 5 minutes to determine if its fixable or not, well .....................

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by zstripe on Monday, May 6, 2013 6:23 AM

I was in,Viet Nam,1967, HQtrs,Btry,8 inch self-propelled,artillery,Radio Teletype Operator and Repair Tech..When the firing,Btrys,had a problem with their equipment,I had to board, a Huey Gunship and replace the unit,not repair it,not there anyway,,, As far as I was concerned,,5 minutes being there was too long....

Cheers,

Frank

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Posted by NP2626 on Monday, May 6, 2013 6:24 AM

My naturally inquisitive nature and deep interest in what makes things tick, doesn't allow me to have a quick and dirty rule about how much time I will spend investigating a problem.  Doesn't matter what the cost of the item I'm investigating is, although if it is expensive, it certainly will get more time. I find these investigations, fun to do and isn't this hobby about having fun?

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by mobilman44 on Monday, May 6, 2013 6:55 AM

I couldn't agree more - the hobby is about fun.  

And when doing something that turns from fun to frustration, I typically just "leave the room" and come back later on.   If its something inexpensive, easy to replace, I MAY well take the easy way out and just replace it. 

After all, its a hobby, not a job or career.  

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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