Hello everyone!
I'm on here today looking for advice/direction on an engine that I've been wanting to get for quite some time. The engine is the Challenger. I need it in HO scale and preferably with DCC and sound. Does anyone have an opinion on what manufacturer makes the best one for the best price? I really want this engine. It would be the head of my fleet. So any information on it is greatly appreciated.
Also, does anyone know what kind of curves an engine like that would be able to handle? Thanks in advance!!! :)
Anoles22,
I'm on the pre-order list for Athearn's Genesis DCC/sound Challenger - due in stores in June 2013. From everything I've read or heard, Athearn makes pretty good locomotives. I have one of their DCC/sound ATSF GP-7s, and it is very nicely detailed, and a good runner. I think Athearn shows their Challenger will work with 22" radius curves.
Wilton.
anoles22I'm on here today looking for advice/direction on an engine that I've been wanting to get for quite some time. The engine is the Challenger. I need it in HO scale and preferably with DCC and sound. Does anyone have an opinion on what manufacturer makes the best one for the best price? I really want this engine. It would be the head of my fleet. So any information on it is greatly appreciated.
Here is the new Sunset NP Z6. It has Tsunami sound from Soundtrax.
This is a Genesis L105. It has the old junky MRC Briliance sound processor. I believe the new ones also have Tsunami's.
Oh yeah the min radius for the Sunset is stated to be 32", the Genesis is reported to be 18" (this is because the rear set of drivers unprototypical pivot). In practicality I consider 36" to be the minimum for either. They just look goofy on anything smaller.
Wilton, why not a Big Boy? Lot more Big Boys out there to be had and look close to being the same. I have had 3 Big Boys, 1 PCM and 2 Athearn's. Both will handle a 18 inch turn, look silly but will handle them.
http://s83.photobucket.com/user/cudaken/media/WPFun/BigBoy.jpg.html]
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I believe that the only two non-brass Challengers are those coming in a few months from the Athearn Genesis line and those on the shelves from MTH's run a few years back. The price will probably be comparable, although you should spend an hour and shop around the www for some bargains. Try trainworld.com and modeltrainstuff.com, both bargain shops. There are others.
I would advise against getting an older run of the Athearns for the reason given...the original MRC decoder seemed to have no end of annoyed users.
Crandell
Ahem--that Genesis Challenger is not a Rio Grande L-105 Challenger, but is a Rio Grande class L-97 Challenger instead.
The actual Rio Grande designed L-105 challengers were completely different animals, and have never been offered outside of HO brass. (The brass Key/Samhongsa versions are the best for bang for the buck.)
The Rio Grande L-97 Challengers were diverted from an existing Union Pacific order by the War Production Board, who refused to allow Rio Grande to build more of their own design when Alco was in the midst of building challengers for the Union Pacific--and did not need to reset/retool their factory. Rio Grande considered them to be "inferior" to their own (because they wanted the higher tractive effort of their own design) and resold them to Clinchfield shortly after the war.
The MTH HO UP/DRGW Challenger has no problems negotiating my Kato 26.375" radius track, and the one I had ran very reliably till I dieselized.
If one wants the absolutely most accurate model, then consider the Athearn Genesis Union Pacific version, as it is likely more accurate. There are brand new ones out there from the previous runs, and new ones are coming with likely better sound.
My 2c.
John
Addendum to UP 4-12-2:
When those ex-Grande Challengers reached the Clinchfield, the double stack was replaced with a single stack about the size of a manhole. Does the Clinchfield model have that, or did they simply paint Clinchfield on the basic UP model?
As for why a Challenger and not a Big Boy, Challengers were run over a lot of geographically different areas by a number of different lines. The 25 Big Boys spent their operating life in one sparsely-populated area, running through some of the most barren territory this side of Mars...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - without 4-X-X-4s)
Texas Zepher anoles22I'm on here today looking for advice/direction on an engine that I've been wanting to get for quite some time. The engine is the Challenger. I need it in HO scale and preferably with DCC and sound. Does anyone have an opinion on what manufacturer makes the best one for the best price? I really want this engine. It would be the head of my fleet. So any information on it is greatly appreciated. I would ask what railroad? If you are talking Union Pacific, Rio Grande, or Clinchfield there are several options. If you are talking about the NP / GN / SP&S as far as I know there is only one option at the moment. The Sunset Z6 or Z8. In real life the NP units were much more powerful, in model form I think the die-cast Genesis would win a pulling contest with the brass Sunset. No I have not put them head to head on the track I think the real winner in the pulling category would be one of the old Bowser models if you could find one on the used market. I've got one of those too but is is still in "kit" form. Here is the new Sunset NP Z6. It has Tsunami sound from Soundtrax. This is a Genesis L105. It has the old junky MRC Briliance sound processor. I believe the new ones also have Tsunami's. Oh yeah the min radius for the Sunset is stated to be 32", the Genesis is reported to be 18" (this is because the rear set of drivers unprototypical pivot). In practicality I consider 36" to be the minimum for either. They just look goofy on anything smaller.
Texas:
Actually, that's an L-97 that the War Board assigned the Rio Grande from a Union Pacific order during WWII. Rio Grande didn't like them and got rid of them as soon as they could. Model-wise, the Genesis model of the L-97 is a honey, even though the sound leaves a lot to be desired (I've got one of the early ones). One thing I wish is that someone would come out with a model of the Rio Grande L-105, which next to the NP Z-8 was the heaviest and most powerful of all Challengers. I've got a couple of old brass Westside models, which I like a lot, and even if the detail isn't up to current brass, they're smooth, powerful runners--in fact they definitely give the Genesis a run for its money pulling-wise.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
My oldest grandson received an early Athearn version of the Challenger for Christmas in 2006. The loco operated flawlessly for three years or so and then just quit. I installed a Soundtraxx DSD-100LC decoder to replace the MRC that was standard. Since replacing the decoder, the loco has again, been operating flawlessly.
Here is a picture of the loco rounding the curve (22 1/2-inch radius) at the west end of the BRVRR layout. My grandson uses it as his desktop photo.
The loco navigates the BRVRR layout with its several snap-switches and 18-inch radius reversing loop without problems. It has no trouble on the 20 and 22 1/2-inch mainlines.
We purchased the loco from Trainworld at a considerable discount in 2006. Money well spent in my opinion.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
BRVRRThe loco navigates the BRVRR layout with its several snap-switches and 18-inch radius reversing loop without problems. It has no trouble on the 20 and 22 1/2-inch mainlines.
Ditto. I have the same model, an older run. I cannot speak of the DCC capabilities because I am strictly DC, but with #4 snap switch turnouts and 22" radius it runs just fine, and ironically does not look as out of place as a 4-8-4, most likely because of both driver sets articulating as previously posted. It has 2 traction tires, IIRC, one on each set of drivers, and will pull anything I put on it with 3% grades (including turns, which magnifies). DCC aside, the only issues I have is being a flywheel motored loco, it slows on the upgrades and hauls @$$ on the downgrades, which I suppose all flywheeled locos would do. Otherwise, a very nicely detailed and operating loco!
As for the Big Boy posters out there, those are on my "someday list", as are 2-8-8-2's; I will probably shop the bay for a RR model when that someday gets here!
Happy RR'ing!
Duane
I have the Genesis UP Challenger and the Bowser Challenger I built from a kit. Both are great, but the Bowser has a lot more pulling power and is in some ways more realistic. I really enjoyed building the kit and learned a lot about steam locos doing so. But, the Genesis is a fine machine too.
Richard
anoles,
DON'T give in to the big, Texas-size steam monsters! Buy a moderate-size steamer. You'll be happier.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Anoles,
Thanks for initiating this post. I have thoroughly enjoyed all the responses you received, not to mention the educational value of it as well. Gotta love big steam.
I agree, unless you have a very large layout stay away from the large mallets.
Other than I do not need any type of mallet engine,. I will not buy any more Athearn locomotives.
I purchased their HO Genesis 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 steamers, only to find out that they came assembled with split gears. Athearn had no parts for them after a few of months of their initial release.
I now longer buy Athearn. I only buy engines after I have confirmed parts are available from the manufacturer.
Don, those original Genesis steamers (Athearn had other steamers before that) had two major flaws, one being the split gear issue which you mention, while the other was their almost non-existent pulling power. I got a free replacement gear for a Pacific which I repaired for another modeller, but neither of my Mikados has had any issues with the gears yet, and I use them on very heavy (100oz.) coal trains.Once I figured out a way to increase their tractive effort (extra weight and balancing), I was able to pick up two more at under $100 each (still with the original gears, but now re-worked as were the original two). I later bought a fifth one, complete with an extra tender, for about the same price. It had had its gear replaced with one from NWSL as a preventative measure. I have yet to correct it's weight problem, but it will eventually become a CNR S-3 with an Elesco fwh.Once those problems have been addressed, these are very nice runners, and the Samhongsa mechanism is as smooth as any they've built in brass. I added tender pick-ups to mine, making them even more reliable.
Despite the rather extensive work done on them, I left mine looking fairly stock, as USRA Mikes were, in my opinion, well-proportioned and I didn't wish to tamper too much with their appearance.
Wayne
Don,
I was intrigued by your post, enough to learn more about Athearn's position on parts support. I called their parts department in Long Beach, CA., and asked about the 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 steamers. I am told that these steamers were built in the late 1990s, and sometime after the production run, the company that Athearn had make them went out of business, making it difficult for Athearn to support them. I can sympathize with Athearn's position to a point. In the global economy we are at the mercy of just this kind of thing.
I have seen repeated references in these forums to North West Short Line (NWSL) offering "aftermarket" gears for many locomotives, among other products. Realistically, with the advances in technology and the new products desired by modelers, trying to effectively support everything previously built is not going to be easy. Your particular scenario was certainly unfortunate. I have read references, again in these forums, to having to make changes out of necessity when parts are not available or an engineering modification is required. I try to have fun with this hobby in spite of the setbacks, most of which have a lot to do with my own lack of skill or ability. Thanks for sharing your experience.
UP 4-12-2Ahem--that Genesis Challenger is not a Rio Grande L-105 Challenger, but is a Rio Grande class L-97 Challenger instead. The actual Rio Grande designed L-105 challengers were completely different animals, and have never been offered outside of HO brass. (The brass Key/Samhongsa versions are the best for bang for the buck.)
Hey everyone!
Thanks so much for your replies to this post. This is going to be the biggest locomotive that I've purchased, and by far, the most expensive....so I am doing as much research as I can before putting a down payment on one.
I'll start with replying to a few questions that I can remember....
I am looking to buy the grey-toned Union Pacific Challenger. I really like the way the grey looks compared to the black. This may change after I've seen a few more pictures and videos of them, but that's where I stand on color as of now.
My layout currently only has 22" curves for the mainlines and 18" curves on the siding tracks. I'm considering upgrading to 24" curves, or even 28" curves for the outer mainline, but I haven't decided on that yet. Based on what I have now, though, it looks like the challenger will run on my layout (as long as the tender is made to run on it).
I'm looking for a Challenger that has both sound and DCC... I just recently bought my first sound/DCC engine from BLI and I am NEVER going back to standard DC. The change is just way to significant.
My layout is currently a 5x9 layout with 2 mainlines and 2 siding/holding tracks. My main engine at the moment is a BLI 4-6-2 Pacific carrying a consist of 9 ACL heavyweight passenger cars. The Challenger is going to be my only big engine on the tracks and will probably be carrying 9-10 passenger cars of some sort..
The reason I'm not going with the Big Boy is simply because I like the Challenger's "look" better. Something just draws me to it. :)
Well, that's all the time I have to reply to folks tonight. I'm going to hop on tomorrow and try to reply to a few more responses. Thanks again for all of the posts! This is really helping me decide on my engine :)
anoles22 .... I am looking to buy the grey-toned Union Pacific Challenger. I really like the way the grey looks compared to the black. This may change after I've seen a few more pictures and videos of them, but that's where I stand on color as of now... ...The reason I'm not going with the Big Boy is simply because I like the Challenger's "look" better. Something just draws me to it. :)...
....
I am looking to buy the grey-toned Union Pacific Challenger. I really like the way the grey looks compared to the black. This may change after I've seen a few more pictures and videos of them, but that's where I stand on color as of now...
...The reason I'm not going with the Big Boy is simply because I like the Challenger's "look" better. Something just draws me to it. :)...
You mean one of the greyhound Challengers like this? It's the Lionel HO version produced about ten years ago, no longer in production. I believe the MTH tooling might have come from Lionel in a court settlement.
I didn't know you had a Challenger Crandell, thats very nice!
Can't wait to see the Challenger on your new layout.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
selectorYou mean one of the greyhound Challengers like this? It's the Lionel HO version produced about ten years ago, no longer in production. I believe the MTH tooling might have come from Lionel in a court settlement.
So do you mean to tell me that there aren't currently any greyhound versions of the Challenger engine expected to come out in the near future??? :( I hope that they make another one. That's the one that I like the most. I guess I could settle for a different color scheme, but the greyhound is the one I fell in love with first. I guess I could always just go to the 2nd engine that I've been looking to get: The 4-6-4 Hudson....
Athearn did the Greyhound 4-6-6-4's in Genesis just a couple years ago.
Also--to those who say they will never buy another Athearn due to the problems with a couple engines--I personally once said the same thing, and posted a similar ill-considered reply on the Atlas forum--and have learned my lesson since. Though some Athearns do not run as well as Atlas or Kato, they offer more engines by far than anybody else (Atlas doesn't offer HO steam, either), and many of them are truly among the best in the hobby.
However, the simple facts are that Athearn has--and has always had, for my entire life--pretty much the best parts support in the business. To be vindictive due to a couple engines that they acknowledge were a "problem" and the manufacturer is long gone isn't going to get you very far. You will miss out on a huge number of fine engines only made by Athearn.
Walthers/Proto 2000 has horrible parts support--go read the numerous threads about it on both the Atlas forum and the Atlas Rescue Forum
I checked the Athearn website for the soon to be released Challengers, and one of the models is a grey-colored version (Athearn item# ATHG97225). Check it out - it may not be the same greyhound scheme as the ones released several years ago, but it still looks great.
oregon shay Anoles, I checked the Athearn website for the soon to be released Challengers, and one of the models is a grey-colored version (Athearn item# ATHG97225). Check it out - it may not be the same greyhound scheme as the ones released several years ago, but it still looks great. Wilton.
Thanks so much for this! The one that you sent me looking for is almost the exact model that I'm looking for. I like the metal pieces on the very front that remind me of "blinders" that a horse would wear. I'm not entirely sure what these are used for on a train, but I really like the way they look. The only thing I'm worried about is that the description says that the "recommended minimum radius" is just 22". I'd prefer them be able to handle the few 18" curves that I have on my layout. I noticed that the Big Boy on BLI's page can handle 18" curves. I wasn't aware of that. Does anyone have any proof (in a picture or video) that the Athearn Challengers can handle smaller curves than the 22"?
Those panels are called smoke deflectors or smoke lifters. They create a higher pressure layer atop the boiler and force the smoke to stay aloft at speed. In some cases, at hight speeds, the smoke is forced to lay flat atop the boiler and it enters the cab or blinds the crew. This unfortunate circumstance is what led to the accident with Norfolk & Western's J Class 4-8-4 #607 in February, 1948. The J Class is streamlined, and does not have smoke lifters. When running that day, the smoke was being blown flat and down across the cab blinding both the fireman and the engineer. Both missed a slow signal because they were required to cross over to the next track, and they entered the crossover at track speed, tipping the locomotive. The fireman died.
18" radius curve operation with an articulated is very difficult, unless it's a 2-6-6-2 with smaller drivers and not a big dual service tall drivered 4-6-6-4. The 2-6-6-2's were favored for coal mine run and logging operations, and they have a much easier time with tight radii. There are Mantua (now available from Model Power) 2-6-6-2 logging engines that are a lot of fun to play with--but they are not a UP Challenger or anything close. The appear rather "old-timey".
22" radius is already very much sharper than what the prototype could ever negotiate. These HO models are built with lots of end play in the drivers and extra slop in the valve gear--to allow the lateral motion required.
Plus, the overhang of a big articulated on 18" radius looks just absolutely horrible--and may result in tunnel portals, etc. needing to be excessively large--or they will get hit.
If a manufacturer states "minimum recommended radius" it is not recommended that the model be consistently operated at lesser radii--imo you are asking for mechanical trouble, and the derailments, which might be commonplace, aren't worth it.
If 18" radius is a requirement, one might be limited to the former Rivarossi steamers, which won't look very good...
This is going to sound crass, but if you want articulated motive power, I would rebuild the layout--and before you say that is ridiculous, I'll say I've done that very thing. It's often easier and cheaper to fix the layout than to trash nice models you are going to spend some good money on.
My smallest radius is Kato 26.375" radius, with easements into it, and even then there's a whole lot of brass steamers I would never even attempt to operate on that radius. I was designing for BLI and MTH and Genesis steamers and passenger cars--not for brass operation--and not for the Athearn DDA40X Centennial diesel.
Even at 26" radius, I had to get the trackwork darn near perfect to operate 4-8-4's and full length passenger cars with ease. At 18" you are asking for nothing but a lot of trouble, or limiting yourself to only certain builders' compromised length equipment. Maybe that would be ok for awhile, and maybe some people are still happy with the IHC/Rivarossi passenger cars and talgo mounted couplers long term--I've just learned that can never be me.
Respectfully submitted--
anoles22 I guess I could always just go to the 2nd engine that I've been looking to get: The 4-6-4 Hudson....
I guess I could always just go to the 2nd engine that I've been looking to get: The 4-6-4 Hudson....
And, as a NYC fan, anoles, a very good choice.
BLI just released a 2nd run of their Paragon2 Hudsons. (I bought one of the 1st runs and they are terrific.) A 2nd run of their Dreyfuss Hudson is due out next month.
So, if you don't end up finding a Challenger to suit you, there are plenty of Hudsons available on the market.
Obviously, I don't know your layout--how big it is or isn't and how many curves are involved, but I'm still going to recommend re-doing the curves to 24" radii so that the passenger cars you might eventually want to put behind even a nice Hudson will operate with ease.
I have a grey Genesis Challenger that I purchased 6 years ago.
It runs very well. The only time it ever derails is when I run it thorugh a turnout the wrong way (that is not surprising). Sometimes I run it on the clubs modular layout that is very rough and the only problems I have is the passenger cars derailing.
It has the old MRC sound decoder, which is not the best, but it is still working so I have not replaced it.
It had a problem with the traction tires coming off so I ordered the wheel set without traction tires from Athearn. It was easy to install and it still easily pulls my 14 heavyweight Walthers passenger cars.
I am very happy with this model!
If you don't mind the stigma of the MTH brand,...Looks like they are releasing the model you want in July.
I just got the following e-mail from TRAINWORLD / TRAINLAND in BROOKLYN NY......