I have a Spectrum 4-8-2 in HO. Everything I am keeping of the things acquired over the years must run flawlessly on my new layout that is code 70 and has curves as small as 18" radius (Spectrum 2-10-0's run flawlessly on it). I am planning on grinding down one of the driver flanges (yes I have done this sort of thing before like my Rivarossi 0-4-0 Docksider, you know the one that has all the valve gear and cookie cutter flanges). Now the question, which flanges, from the front, driver 2 or driver 3 or?????????? The problem is I can not hook up the draw-bar without it derailing someplace at test mode (engines must be able to crawl to "bat out of hell" speed in both directions.
Look at the drawbar. Is it all the way to the top of the pin? Is this a DCC or DCC ready loco ?If it is, look at the wires that run between the loco and tender. I have a 2-8-0 that I had to disconnect the tender and "stretch " the wires out. I left the loco and tender like this for a day. This fixed the loco from derailing. This might work on yours. Joe
It is DCC ready. Not the wires but my very tight tolerances for track-work. Unfortunately no two engines are the same, I have many 4-4-0's and only one had to be modified, I had to add weight to the tender which means I had to remove the backup light.
Coney Island and 207th Street are the only yards that have wheel grinding machines. Damaged wheel sets must be sent there for repair. It is very specialized work that they LION would not attempt without these machines.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Not really understanding what you're attempting here. Is the main issue a binding of the tender to the cab, due to drawbar length and tight radius? Grinding the 2 center flanges to blind drivers won't change the geometry of the loco on the tracks in relation to the angle of the tender. (unless the center drivers are causing the loco to ride up the rails on the turn) If there is no noticable interference w/ the drawbar as mentioned, you will need to fabricate a longer drawbar, providing that there is no room to drill another hole to increase the spacing.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I think the real problem is not having a blind driver, which changes everything just enough that sometimes there are issues and on a curve, the geometry changes if you remove a flange, the question is which one? On another note, Lion, I think you have way to much time on your hands!
BroadwayLion Coney Island and 207th Street are the only yards that have wheel grinding machines. Damaged wheel sets must be sent there for repair. It is very specialized work that they LION would not attempt without these machines. ROAR
Come on man... Every time you reply with nothing to offer the OP, with some redicoulous statements. If you're not going to help, then don't post at all please.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Motley BroadwayLion Coney Island and 207th Street are the only yards that have wheel grinding machines. Damaged wheel sets must be sent there for repair. It is very specialized work that they LION would not attempt without these machines. ROAR Come on man... Every time you reply with nothing to offer the OP, with some redicoulous statements. If you're not going to help, then don't post at all please.
All I said, is "I would not attempt to do this". Of course I added some flowers and rabbits to my message.
Grinding down flanges is something to be done with care, or -- as friend Lion posits -- perhaps best not done at all. First of all just grinding down a pizza cutter flange does not give you the RP25 wheel profile, with the slight fillet or angle from wheel tread to start of flange that is one of the reasons the RP25 tracks as well as it does. The fillet basically invites the wheel to be constantly sliding down the side of the rail so the wheel tread meets the rail head. I am rather poorly summarizing an excellent article MR ran when the RP25 contour was new -- but suffice to say there are good reasons why Lionel had deep flangers and tubular contour rail ....
A Spectrum engine should have the RP25 contour -- but frankly except for fine scale modelers (who would not want that wheel width anyway) it should also offer flanges that are acceptable for just about any track we are likely to run the engine on.
Second, if the driver has a plastic center, as most of the old AHM engines did (where I got my experience grinding down flanges) then the grinding can generate enough heat to distort or even melt that plastic center. Or it can losen the driver center from the axle which can goof up the quartering. Some cold water to spritz on the work from time to time is not a bad idea. But take this seriously -- the grinding creates heat as anyone who has touched a piece of rail they just cut off with a Dremel can tell you.
Third, it is all too tempting to let the engine run while held upside down, and grind the flanges then. Resist this. That creates a risk of metal particles getting into the motor, the gearing, the bearings, and a host of other unwanted places. It places much strain on the side rods and if the wheel centers are getting soft, you are inviting them to distort. And you also have to take care not to gouge into the traction tire if there is one.
I finally built, roughly following an article that appeared in MR or RMC as I recall, a rather crude device that would hold one driver set in place while a flexible but tight shaft would make the wheel turn. A small fan motor I found at a surplus store provided the power, and I would gently try to grind down the flange using the flat side of a reinforced wheel in a Dremel tool. I had to take care that I did not create wear on the axle during this by the way.
And frankly at the end of the day after all that, for my AHM engines I was still stuck with a wheel profile involving a very flat wheel tread and small(er) flange that did not track anywhere near as well as I had hoped.
I guess I'd say that if you can only run an engine on your layout if you grind away the center flange or flanges, think how much you really need to run that engine. And if you go forward ona Spectrum quality engine, my thought would be to buy a replacement driver and make that your guinea pig.
Dave Nelson
I have ground down flanges some while the loco rotates the wheels and using a grinding wheel rotating in the opposite direction. It takes a long time and I was able to get what I needed which was a few thousands height reduction without removing the flange. This was not easy to do.
I would recommend contacting Northwest Shortline and seeing if they have a replacement wheel that is blind.
I'm sure I missed something, but I don't see a blind flange drive axle working well on a 4-4-0?
Richard
Train Modeler I have ground down flanges some while the loco rotates the wheels and using a grinding wheel rotating in the opposite direction. It takes a long time and I was able to get what I needed which was a few thousands height reduction without removing the flange. This was not easy to do. I would recommend contacting Northwest Shortline and seeing if they have a replacement wheel that is blind. I'm sure I missed something, but I don't see a blind flange drive axle working well on a 4-4-0? Richard
rrebell Train Modeler I have ground down flanges some while the loco rotates the wheels and using a grinding wheel rotating in the opposite direction. It takes a long time and I was able to get what I needed which was a few thousands height reduction without removing the flange. This was not easy to do. I would recommend contacting Northwest Shortline and seeing if they have a replacement wheel that is blind. I'm sure I missed something, but I don't see a blind flange drive axle working well on a 4-4-0? Richard 4-8-2 is the configuration for the one question. Two, if you are grinding away the entire flange, wheel profile dose not mater and if it did and you were only grinding away some of the flange on a rp25 contour, you are not affecting the contour only the depth. Third, if it dies, it dies, it is a was a fairly cheap engine when I bought it, I don't think I have ever paid over $75 for an engine except for some brass and a Spectrum climax (just could not get a deal on that engine). Probably bought the 4-8-2 for around $40 and it would end up being my biggest steam. On another note I have never had a problem with grinding, just takes more time than wanted. A thing of note on code 70 Shinohara turnouts of older vintage, they care code 70 rail but sometimes the spikes are a bit high for engines as some seem to hit on occasion and I had a modify a really old one by cutting half the spike head off on a three way, talk about a precise and boring task and I had a more recent one that could have been there but the one I worked on was already installed. Last, yes I could sell it as I have more engines than needed but sometimes I like a challenge!
Since you've ground before, then you're probably just looking for different techniques. Although don't forget the buying a new set option from NWSL--they custom make wheels and may even grind down yours.
Having firm workholding is important for maching/grinding, so at least use one vise preferable one on a moveable table. If you're doing this at home and have a vice and bench grinder you might consider chucking up a wheel in a dremel in a vise and then positioning the bench grinder against the wheel. Have them running in opposing directions. The primary reasons you want to keep both the wheel and part moving is to avoid heat and high spots. Check the runout of the chucked wheel and grinding wheel. I use a dial indicator. Then either adjust the chuck and/or dress/true the wheel.
As far as which wheelset, you might want to consider which(non geared) one has the least lateral movement as the best option? If a wheelset has a lot of lateral movement, it probably isn't causing as much trouble. The geared wheelset probably has the least lateral movement, but I probably wouldn't want to make those the blind ones, so consider the next one. You can also use a copier and make a template to see which wheel is more likely to want to stick out over the "rail".
You see, that looking for the least lateral movement is what I was looking for. Like to grind down drivers as they are so much easier to do than the free floaters like on the front pilot (much easier to replace those).
I still don't understand if the derailing is a problem of tight turns (all flanged no blind drivers) or that the tender is binding at the cab corner (needing longer drawbar). The Spectrum 10 wheeler must have blind center driver at least to be running to your satisfaction.
The tender is being thrown off by one of the flanged drivers, sure a longer throw bar would fix but the length would be ridiculous adding about 1/2 inch, so the question still is, which one to grind off? I think it is driver 3 but don't know for sure. Kinda need math to figure it out, my weak spot, like really weak!
rrebell The tender is being thrown off by one of the flanged drivers, sure a longer throw bar would fix but the length would be ridiculous adding about 1/2 inch, so the question still is, which one to grind off? I think it is driver 3 but don't know for sure. Kinda need math to figure it out, my weak spot, like really weak!
Cab to tender interference angle due to the radius will not technically change with a set distance by drawbar length. There is a fixed position of the frame from the 4 contact points of the two outer axles, yes slop and side play of the axles comes into play, however not that much. Allowing the 2 rear sets of driver/ flanges to "try" to be forced in a position may help reduce the rear cab over hang but unless the tender interference is so slight, I doubt all your efforts will create any change. This would be grinding the 2nd set, But ezcessive latteral movement of the remaining 3rd set may not allow any different tracking at all.
Blind center drivers don't nec change the angle of incidence of the frame to the arc of the turn, it just allows the center treads to slide across the railhead on a tight radius as not to derail on of the outer wheelsets (climbing the rails)
Weighting the tender first would be my recomendation if you don't want to lengthen the drawbar for proper clearance.
Looks like it might warm up enough today to venture out to the garage and double check the problems, will report back with the findings.
Well I was able to reanalyze the situation and found out the correct answer is driver 4 but it came with an offer to buy both of them for a fair price and since all the flanges are a bit deep on these (guess quality control was lacking), I think I will save myself the work and get more $ for my layout. Thanks for all the help.
Rrbell, you're trying to run a locomotive with a minimum radius specification of 22" on an 18"radius curve. Not a good mix, and it will look really silly trying to go around that tight of a curve, even if you can get it to do so. The 2-10-0 has a much shorter rigid wheelbase than the 4-8-2, simply because the drivers are half as large as the Mountain's, as well as a much shorter overall length, so 18" isn't a problem. I would not even try to grind off the center flanges (and you'd have to grind both the #2 and the #3 drivers to make it work). You'd still have to add a longer drawbar, so you really wouldn't be gaining anything. You would more than likely ruin the locomotive. You can sell it for $60-$70 in good condition. Do so, and get another 2-10-0. Don't try to put 10 pounds of mud into a 5-pound sack.
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Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
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"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
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gmcrail Rrbell, you're trying to run a locomotive with a minimum radius specification of 22" on an 18"radius curve. Not a good mix, and it will look really silly trying to go around that tight of a curve, even if you can get it to do so. The 2-10-0 has a much shorter rigid wheelbase than the 4-8-2, simply because the drivers are half as large as the Mountain's, as well as a much shorter overall length, so 18" isn't a problem. I would not even try to grind off the center flanges (and you'd have to grind both the #2 and the #3 drivers to make it work). You'd still have to add a longer drawbar, so you really wouldn't be gaining anything. You would more than likely ruin the locomotive. You can sell it for $60-$70 in good condition. Do so, and get another 2-10-0. Don't try to put 10 pounds of mud into a 5-pound sack.