After not finding a suitable product for a location on my layout (a triangular-shaped passenger station), I've come to the conclusion that scratch building one may be the only solution. Is scratch building in HO scale pretty much like erecting a prototype-sized structure, as far as the dimensions of materials like roofing and walls are concerned? Is it a function of doing the math and converting prototype heights and thickness etc. to know what size scratch building products to buy? My Walthers reference book has a large selection of such materials, but I'd rather not learn the hard way what not to buy to build this thing.
Is kit-bashing a less cumbersome option?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Once you choose a gauge, most scratch builders and kit bashers tend to buy all parts, wood, lumber and fittings "in gauge" and they try to compute sizes and shapes that are also "in gauge" to avoid odd, oversized or undersized looking finished products.
Of course, there is no MR rule book or set of laws under which you could be punished for being a creative oddball and put a G gauge pyle national headlight from a steam engine on an N gauge diesel. Just be ready for some laughs from others and hurt feelings if you think that is cool and you did good, or a great deal of self satisfaction and gratification if what you expected in doing it was to generate laughter from fellow model rails.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Not only are you scratch building in a specific scale, but you are usually, through necessity, having to selectively compress and alter a structure to fit. Are you planning to build a specific prototype structure from photos?
What I tend to do, is to estimate the true dimensions of the structure from the photos. If there is a person in the photo, or a known dimension like a door height, then you can estimate out with reasonable accuracy the dimensions of key measurements. I then convert these to HO scale and make a scale drawing of the structure that I am going to build.
Once this is done, I will often mock up the building using card stock, cereal boxes work well for this. I use this card mock up to make adjustments to fit the space. I will also use this to determine the location of windows and doors. I am not looking to make the model an exact replica of the prototype, but one that looks very recognizable. Often this is when you realize that you have to reduce the size from the prototype and adjust accordingly. Re do the plans.
At some point I will pick out windows and doors that come close to representing the prototype structure. Gandt line and other are good suppliers of windows, doors and trim.
I use my plans to then cut the main wall materials. In this case I used styrene brick sheet, but you can use the various scribed wood sidings that are available.
Place your windows and doors and other details and cut the necessary opening.
In this case I needed a structure for a very narrow section of the layout. The compromise was making it a flat, rather than the full structure.
Here is the completed model and the actual structure after it burned last year. It was since demolished.
It is not exact, scaled down a bit, but anyone that looks at it knows exactly where it is meant to be.
Yes the windows are different, my model is as it looked in the 1950's
Even if you are not building from a specific prototype I would still advise looking for photos of real structures close to what you want and use them as guides. This way you will avoid mistakes of making a structure that could not be built in real life.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
While there are those who build like the prototype, many (most?) model scratch builders don't. Using sheet siding, window castings, etc. speeds up the job. Most models benefit from interior bracing not found on the prototype.
I suggest you start with a small wood craftsman type kit such as Campbell makes - this will give you a good feel for scratch building but with all the parts and instructions. You could also follow an article in MR or other hobby magazines/books - make sure it has a materials list so you know what to buy.
DO NOT start with a laser cut kit - while many are good you won't be laser cutting parts for scratch building.
After building a couple of kits or following a couple of articles you should have enough experience to work from drawings, photographs, etc. or even making your own drawings.
Kit bashing can be an alternative especially if a kit is close to what you want. You're generally on your own in rearranging and modifying the parts from one or more kits. Read a couple of articles on kitbashing projects to get a feel for it.
My first scratchbuilding structure was a small section house from a structures book published by Kalmbach. It was a very enjoyable project.
Good luck
Paul
Scratchbuilding structures is a relatively easy thing to get into, thanks to a variety of manufacturers. Hobby shops that cater to model builders carry plastic siding, wall and roofing materials from Evergreen and Plastruct, who offer a wide variety of clapboards and other shapes. Grandt Line and Tichy make an assortment of windows and doors. Or, there are companies who make some of the same parts in wood. Campbell and other make self-stick roof shingles. You can also buy "dimensional lumber" which is standard lumber sizes used in full-scale construction scaled down appropriately for HO or N scale, in case you want to build board-by-board.
If you have a chance to go to a train show, stroll through the vendor tables and see what they are offering.
I would advise diving right in. The materials are very inexpensive, and the act of building is a great learning experience.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
oregon shay After not finding a suitable product for a location on my layout (a triangular-shaped passenger station), I've come to the conclusion that scratch building one may be the only solution. Is scratch building in HO scale pretty much like erecting a prototype-sized structure, as far as the dimensions of materials like roofing and walls are concerned?
After not finding a suitable product for a location on my layout (a triangular-shaped passenger station), I've come to the conclusion that scratch building one may be the only solution. Is scratch building in HO scale pretty much like erecting a prototype-sized structure, as far as the dimensions of materials like roofing and walls are concerned?
Yes and no. Yes, you normally look at prototype structures to get dimensions (door and window spacings, height, roof pitches, etc.) and no, you don't have to build it board by board.
Is it a function of doing the math and converting prototype heights and thickness etc. to know what size scratch building products to buy? My Walthers reference book has a large selection of such materials, but I'd rather not learn the hard way what not to buy to build this thing.
Pretty much but its not that hard.
For example if I was building a wood depot, I would buy Evergreen siding material appropriate to my scale, then buy Tichy or Grandt Line window castings of the size and style for my building, plus shome sheet styrene for the roof. Throw in some shingle or roofing material and some Evergreen trim sizes and I can build a depot.
Maybe. First you have to find a kit that has the size and shape pieces you need, then you have to be able to figure out how to cut up the pieces to make your desired structure (one of the first thing i do when I buy a kit is to photocopy all the wall sections and "kitbash' the photocopies to figure out how the building needs to be sliced and diced.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Not really. Structures in either styrene or wood are put together like cardboard boxes. You cut walls, roofs, floors etc out of sheets of material. Thickness of the material is a compromise between thick enough to be stiff, and so thick is is hard to cut. Anything between 1/16 and 3/16 inch is good in HO. The only thing "scale" about such material is the size of the pattern, brick, clapboard, shingles, cinderblock, etc. You brace the inside corners with square or right angle strips.
You need to find, or draw yourself, plans for the structure. The plans are most useful drawn full size and dimensioned, height, width length, position of windows and doors. I always dimension my drawings in prototype feet and inches and use a scale rule to make the drawings. Make three views, top, side, and front. If in doubt as to the structure's fit on the layout, xerox your plans, cut them out with scissors, assemble with scotch tape, and place the resulting paper model on the layout. This checks for fit, clearances (will passing trains clear it?) and overall ambiance.
Traditional materials are wood, styrene, and other kits which you modify to suit your project. I cut my walls, roofs and floors with an Xacto knife. With a metal straight edge to guide my cut and keep it straight. Styrene has a lot going for it. It's strong, has no grain to split with, takes paint well, and it glues easily and the joints are very strong. YOu cut it by scoring it with a knife and then bending it. It breaks cleanly along the scored line.
They make a fantastic variety of windows. Your drawings will come out better if you have the windows on hand so you REALLY know what their dimensions are. If you plan to light styrene building, you want to paint the insides to prevent the walls from glowing in the dark. And you want to plug any light leaks at the joints. Silicon carbide sandpaper makes a good tar and gravel roof. It's the right color and the right texture. You can find textures (brick, stone, concrete) on the internet, or you can photo graph your own, size it with a computer program, and print it on your Inkjet, (or color laser if you have something that nice) and make your own materials. I had good luck making a bit of cut stone wall for the basement, and red brick for the chimney.
Or kits can be bashed. You get the advantages of nicely molded brick and fancy surface details. The kit parts can be cut and joined and the joint won't show. Solvent welding makes a joint as strong as the original material.
Good luck.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
oregon shay After not finding a suitable product for a location on my layout (a triangular-shaped passenger station), I've come to the conclusion that scratch building one may be the only solution. Is scratch building in HO scale pretty much like erecting a prototype-sized structure, as far as the dimensions of materials like roofing and walls are concerned? Is it a function of doing the math and converting prototype heights and thickness etc. to know what size scratch building products to buy? My Walthers reference book has a large selection of such materials, but I'd rather not learn the hard way what not to buy to build this thing. Is kit-bashing a less cumbersome option? Any advice would be appreciated.
Just found the ideal plans for a B&O wedge-shaped station, go to MODEL RAILROADER NOVEMBER 1968. All the dimensions and plansare there to build the perfect station.
Someone on this forum must be able to post the plans or send them to you good luck, the plans are in N scale but easy to convert to HO on a printer or take to a printshop.
Guess that settles whether to but a kit or scratchbuild, it's not as hard as it may seem, I would doubt if there is a kit of this nature.
Nice job, Simon. I played high school basketball in a similar building, many moons (and lbs.) ago...
Foam board is also a good choice for making mock-ups of structures. It's usually 1/8" thick or so and comes in a few colors. It stays together well using Eileen's Tacky Glue and is pretty durable. If you're using prototype photographs or have another rendering of your building, you can even use the mock-up as a good stand-in while you're building the structure itself.
I'll also second the advice to dive right in. You won't know until you try, and never be afraid of making mistakes as long as you learn from them. You can ALWAYS replace a crude beginning structure with something more finely built later down the line.
oregon shay
Welcome to the forums!
First of all, I don't think of scratch building as "cumbersome". In fact, I think it is one of the most pleasurable and rewarding aspects of the hobby.
One of the key reasons for structure scratch building is to be able to fit a building into the space you have available, as you are forced to do to model your station. If there is a prototype for your unusually shaped station then you have lots of information to make your project work. However, very often making an exact scale model of the real thing would result in a building that is far too big to fit where you want it. Scratch building allows you to scale down the building but still retain the flavour of the structure. Simon has shown an excellent example where he has reduced the width somewhat and almost totally reduced the depth to make his structure fill the space available.
I think all you need to do is dive in! You are aware of the materials available. How to determine sizes has been explained (i.e. use a door which has known dimensions to scale the face of a wall).
I would offer a few hints so your structures will hold up over time and look good:
- Internal bracing is a must with any wall or roof. Even though the parts may be straight when you start, the effect of adhesives and time will likely warp flat surfaces. When working with styrene I purchase sheets of .040" styrene with 'v' groove lines already molded in. The sheets are easily cut into strips by scribing along the lines with a sharp blade and snapping the strip off. I use strips 1/2" to 3/4" wide glued on right angles to the top and bottom of the walls to keep them from warping.
- If you are working with styrene use a very thin gluing agent. I prefer Tamiya's Extra Thin Cement because it leaves almost no trace along the joints. There are cheaper alternatives like MEK (Methyl Ethyl Keytone) but I have no experience with them.
- Get yourself a good supply of #11 Exacto blades and toss them as soon as they show signs or wear.
- Grandt Line and Tichy offer lots of windows and doors. I recommend staying away from 'masonary' style windows at first because there is no external window casing. Installing them requires great accuracy when cutting the holes in the walls. Most of their windows have an external casing which allows for a bit of tolerance when cutting the openings in the wall material because the casing will hide minor gaps between the wall opening and the window frame.
- Related to the window/door thing, if you are going to paint your windows and doors a different colour from the walls, paint the windows/doors and the walls before assembly. That will give you much crisper division between the two colours.
- If your building will be in the background then consider using smaller scale details to force the perception of depth. For example, a building that is further back could be built using 'N' scale components in an HO setting. Far away buildings look smaller then the ones closer to you.
Good luck with your project! Let us know how it turns out.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Wikious Foam board is also a good choice for making mock-ups of structures.
Foam board is also a good choice for making mock-ups of structures.
I use foam board as the substructure to many of my scratch-builds. All I am really doing is laminating a foam core base. It makes excellent bracing. This is not a good idea if you want to have a detailed interior, but works well for background structures.
What an excellent thread! I've been tempted to try scratch building and once actually did do a small structure.
You WON"T be seeing any photos of that!
My biggest problem was in getting exact cuts for things like windows and doors. They never seemed to come out exactly square. I was using stryrene and it was years ago. Maybe I'll try it again one day.
Jarrell
There are some craftsmen who approach scratchbuilding a structure very much as you would approach building a full size building, starting with framing and rafters and such -- as a rule they are either doing so for modeling contest or NMRA achievement program points or they are themselves home builders. That is not my approach but I will say this: a wall is a wall is a wall but it really does pay to know how a real roof is constructed if you want to avoid howlers and confusion.
The more common situation is to approach scratchbuilding a structure very much as if you were building parts for a kit. Such things as: what angle do the sides meet at? 45 degrees as in a kit? that calls for precision work. or 90 degrees in which case, is there going to be an L angle that covers the gap or what? that is the sort of challenge.
How does the roof look meeting the sides -- are they angled at the top to provide a flat surface for the roof, as in your typical kit?, and/or ends, of the structure? What is the size opening you need to create to place the windows, doors or other such added parts (which you might also scratchbuild but are more likely to purchase from Tichy or the other suppliers). Most such parts have a slight overhang so the size of the opening is a bit smaller than what the exterior view would suggest.
This may sound odd but if you have a junker plastic kit or two, try cutting an opening for the doors or windows of that kit into styrene or wood and see how close you can come to acceptable appearance.
If you are using wood then yes it really helps to have constructed a number of wood kits (keep in mind that laser kits have particular properties of precision that you may not be able to replicate, versus the more traditional wood kits from Alexander, Campbell, and others); if you are using styrene then it helps to have constructed plastic kits. Some guys I know actually adopt the simple but effective way that Plasticville buildings join up exactly using a sort of male/female plastic part situation.
One observation is that if you have windows you can actually see into -- think about floors. It is amazing how even in N scale you notice if you can see down to the ground floor from upper story windows! Ditto for view blocks to avoid seeing right through a building.
As to the thickness of the material, here we have challenges that differ from the manufacturer of injection molded plastic kits -- yes the sides have to be thick enough to not warp or not bow out or in, but we also have to be able to cut into the material with great precision. So the plastic I use is in fact thinner than the sides of a Walthers or LifeLike kit, but then -- as an above poster indicated -- you can be lavish with interior bracing.
By the way to address one of the original poster's comments -- don't ignore the possibilities of kit bashing for strangely shaped structures. It is a pity that Kalmbach has allowed Art Curren's book on kitbashing to go out of print -- true, some of the structures he used from AHM and IHC, Revell and Walthers, are now hard to find. But his techniques and insights have not gone out of style at all.
Dave Nelson
jacon12 What an excellent thread! I've been tempted to try scratch building and once actually did do a small structure. You WON"T be seeing any photos of that! My biggest problem was in getting exact cuts for things like windows and doors. They never seemed to come out exactly square. I was using stryrene and it was years ago. Maybe I'll try it again one day. Jarrell
MicroMark sells a "right angle chisel" that ought to make cutting doors and windows easier. I don't have one myself, but it looks like just the thing.
simon1966 Here is the completed model and the actual structure after it burned last year. It was since demolished.
Not to hijack the thread- but wow! Simon1966- that is an excellent model of the Coliseum in Benld, IL!
I can't count the number of time I had passed that as a kid when railfanning the North Western with my dad. Excellent work!
That's it Benld, IL. I appreciate the compliment. Many of the folks that visit my layout danced away the hours in that place.
This is what it looked like late last year
One advantage of scratch building prototype structures is that you are preserving a bit of history for when they disappear.
I recommend getting a small metal square to help you make your window and door openings more accurate, I suggest metal specifically because you can run an Exacto blade along it without damaging the square. Here is one example:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/795-37434
I draw a pencil line where the cut will be before I start using a blade. That tells you that you are cutting in the right spot and it also gives you a good idea of what the finished wall will look like before you start to cut.
One other trick is to make the cut in several passes with the first being relatively gentle. The gentle start establishes a line that the blade can follow for the remaining passes, and it makes it much easier to keep your straight edge in place. After two or three passes you may not even need to keep the straight edge in place because the blade will follow the established groove.
To get the right size for windows and doors, I will repeat a point that I made in an earlier post. Namely, use windows and doors with an exterior casing (trim) for your first projects. To size the opening, turn the window face down so you can see the actual frame (jamb) dimensions, and then use a pencil to mark the jamb width and height on the wall. When you cut the opening to that size the window casing will sit on the surface of the wall and will hide any minor gaps between the wall opening and the jamb. Using window with casing attached usually means that you will be building a frame (wood) structure. Most windows in masonary structures are set back into the wall a bit and don't have a casing. That requires a great deal more accuracy to get the right size opening.
One other point I will repeat is to use a thin cement rather then the thick stuff like Testors glue in the red tube. The windows are very delicate. Using a thick glue that takes several minutes to set can cause the windows and the surrounding wall to swell slightly from the effect of the solvents. If your window was a snug fit to start, the swelling will pinch the window and cause it to distort and break the muntins (the lines between individual panes). Don't ask me how I know this.
Here is one of my scratch built projects. It is a copy of the boiler room and coal crib at the East Broad Top Railway. As usual, it has a ways to go:
Here is the original:
http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/11217.jpg
Thanks for the tips, Dave. One day when I have time I'm going to try a very simple structure again. Maybe I can get it good enough that it can sit on the back side of my layout at the very least.
Excellent advice here....one item I have found to be very useful in scratch building is a set of angle plates available from Micromark, they come in 3 different sizes. They not only help in squaring things up but make excellent weights to hold things secure while gluing.
Good luck and have fun,
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
If someone is thinking of getting into scratchbuilding in a reasonably serious way, might I also recommend spending a bit of money on the two boxed sets of HO windows and doors that Tichy sells (MicroMark offers them, sometimes on sale). Between the two sets you have examples of virtually their entire line. This is more practical than trying to judge what a casting looks like from the catalog or over the internet (or even holding it in your hand at the LHS for that matter).
Tichy calls them Architectural Parts assortments (and they have similar sets for 1/4" scale)
http://www.micromark.com/130-piece-ho-scale-architectural-parts-assortment,7382.html
http://www.micromark.com/200-piece-ho-scale-architectural-parts-assortment,7381.html
If I use a part from the box I replenish it so I continue to have a complete set -- more likely I judge from what is in the box and then buy new what I need for the project.
Here is another tip. When you have leftover parts (and this applies to any modeling) by all means keep them but don't just throw them into a jumbled "scrap box." Rather make note of the manufacturer and part number if you can. Few things are more frustrating than to find the perfect part, of which you have just one, and you need five more and can't figure out who makes it.
The main point about scratchbuilding is to work slowly and think about each step -- recall that the folks who create the commercial kits do all that thinking for you, and now it's your turn! -- and realize that to finish off even one wall just the way you want it can be a source of enormous enjoyment and, yes, fun.
dknelson By the way to address one of the original poster's comments -- don't ignore the possibilities of kit bashing for strangely shaped structures. It is a pity that Kalmbach has allowed Art Curren's book on kitbashing to go out of print -- true, some of the structures he used from AHM and IHC, Revell and Walthers, are now hard to find. But his techniques and insights have not gone out of style at all. Dave Nelson
I just bought that book this morning off Amazon.com.
There are two different editions listed, a 1989 ed. and a 1994 ed.
Happy Hunting,
Johnboy out................................................................
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Simon 1966,
Most of the structures on my layout are either scratchbuilt or kitbashed, as real estate is not only at a premium but odd-shaped on my small L-shaped switching layout.
I started my scratchbuilding with a grain elevator/feed mill that was not only fairly large but has a somewhat complicated roof line. This structure is featured in Kalmbach's "HO Lineside Industries You Can Build" (Maxon Mills, Page 54). Although I didn't have room for the entire structure as shown in the article/instructions, I did build what I believe to be a very believable agricultural service facility. Additionally, I also scratchbuilt a set of grain silos with head house atop of them to compliment the facility. Since it was my first scratchbuild, it was a long, drawn out construction process, but I think well worth the effort.
Another thing about scratchbuilding and/or kitbashing: you have a structure that no one else has on their layout - - a unique structure and, believe me, I have plenty of those. I have the scratchbuilding bug, it sems.
The main thing is to have fun, that's what this hobby is all about!
Dave: Great advice.
I would only add/ emphasize the importance of working from some kind of plan or drawing, even if it is just dimensions noted on pictures of the prototype and a simple drawing addressing how the corners, roof, loading docks and walls meet.
On my first scratchbuilt structure I kept running into questions about the dimension of some detail (like the corbels) that I had overlooked in my intial review of the structure.
But, the result is one of my proudest achievements in the hobby.
Many thanks to all who replied to my original post. I appreciate all the advice. The posted examples were quite impressive.
I contacted Kalmbach Publishing and purchased the plans of the wedged-shaped B&O passenger station in the November 1968 issue of Model Railroader, as was suggested. The plans haven't arrived yet, but should provide a good basis to build from.
If this project turns out well, a follow-up post will be sent along.