carknocker1 the point everyone is missing is there is so much pirated CAT material out there , CAT will let you use their stuff you just have to ask and tell them what you are doing with it
the point everyone is missing is there is so much pirated CAT material out there , CAT will let you use their stuff you just have to ask and tell them what you are doing with it
Counterfeiting of the CAT logo and equipment is quite a large industry in some quarters. I see a lot of it in the electronics industry now as well. So, of course, there is going to be a bit of jumpiness within the corporate structure about this...
http://www.catmag.co.uk/headline-news-autodata-sinks-technology-pirates-in-counterfeiting-settlement
http://www.cyclops-electronics.com/index.php?_p_=114
http://oami.europa.eu/en/office/pdf/030325counterf.pdf
I think some of the paranoia that CAT may be experiencing is precisely because of the epidemic of counterfeit toys and such...
I have in my CAT collection..construction equipment..not the furry kind! LOL!...a roadscraper that has all the requisite markings of CATERPILLAR...the logo's are a bit fuzzy though, the way the model is constructed looks like it was made by Norscot but the bottom is not at all made from the same material as the rest..zinc casting anyone?...thankfully it was caught by the fellow at a toy show before he sold it to anyone..gave it to me....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Cat may be within their rights but for sure this is heavy handed and ill advised. Making manuals and other literature available that are no longer accesible through original channels is vital for restoration facilities and very helpful for modelers. I notice the letter is all about cease and desist or else and not please come sign an agreement so you can continue. I wonder where this all ends up? J.R.
If I take a photo of a GP9 and then sell prints at a train show, I wonder if CAT would consider that an infringement of their copyright. The diesel is theirs, but the photo is mine.
Jim
dieselsmoke If I take a photo of a GP9 and then sell prints at a train show, I wonder if CAT would consider that an infringement of their copyright. The diesel is theirs, but the photo is mine. Jim
Are you making a copy of the locomotive, which could be used as a functional replacement instead of buying a 1:1 scale engine from Cat/EMD? No? Then it is not a copyright violation.
On the other hand, scanning manuals and putting the resulting PDF up on a webserver is making a copy of EMDs manuals. Irrespective of whether you make money on your copy or not, and irrespective of whether Cat/EMD currently is printing new copies of those manuals and selling them.
In this thread, a lot of weird stuff has been posted. According to the letter sent by Cat's lawyer, Caterpilar is not accusing the website of trademark infringement, and they are not threatening to introduce a licensing fee for making scale models that look similar to the full scale locomotives EMD made and sold to railroads.
They are merely asking a web site to stop scanning printed manuals copyrighted by EMD and posting the resulting PDF files on a web server. It is not a totally outlandish request.
This whole thread is a bit of a tempest in a tea pot. Let's calm down the hysteria a little bit, eh?
How many of us actually need copies of the technical manuals for the locomotives in order to do model railroading? Why should we be entitled to free copies of these manuals?
Smile, Stein
Stein: I think you haven´t read all of the posts... There is accusations of Copyright infringement in the letter from CAT.
And as there can´t be any copyrights on material published before 1976?!? I don´t see how they could demand it being removed from the site!
It may be the case that we, as modelers, don´t need the manuals. BUT, the same type of "Intellectual property" claims could just as well spread to other companies and then include drawings etc. etc. Then we´re really up$1***$2creek, knee high and no boat!
I get tired of corporations that try to stop the wealth of information that can be obtained through the Internet!
Sure, I might not be "entitled" to anything, but I think it´s a stupid way of doing business!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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This is the letter in question...it does so state in paragraph 2 precisely that fallenflags was in violation of EMD's copyright rights...
Let us face facts here...it is just like the situation with O.Winston Links photos...all you do is ask fr permission to do such a thing as reproduce the PDF...sheeesh
The silliness will not stop until the US stops with perpetually extending the the copywrite to protect Mickey Mouse. Copywrites are a good thing and protect the creator of works. But it has now been extended to well past the lifetime of the creator, mainly to protect big corporate interests rather than the authors of creative works. The fact that a 70 year old locomotive manual is even remotely still subject to being copywrited material is the foolishness.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Well...they do own the rights....
I solomnly promise the ditzy young attorney for CAT, who is probably still in correspondence school, that I will scrape all EMD/GM decals off my diesels and any other model railroad equipment that I have currently running or will purchase in the future, so that I will not upset the fat cats at CAT (hey, that is cute).
I also promise to boycott any construction firm that uses any other brand of equpment but has the the CAT name on it to fool the public. However, I suggest you not come onto my property looking for "violations" on my model railroad, indoors or outdoors if you don't want to take a chance on getting charged with trespass. Otherwise I will find another mail order attorney to sue you.
Bob
You guys crack me up. You really know very little about what is going on and by the time this conversation is done, you watch...., Model Railroading will be dead again.
Cat is doing exactly what they say they are. Protecting copyrights and Trademarks. Would your Boss allow you to take business specific items from your work place and give them away? Even if they make no profit? Would Col Sanders give the recipe for Kentucky Fried Chicken to Marge down the street because she likes it and will only pass it to her friends, no businesses? Can you just print off all the Trademarked and copyrighted stuff you want as long as it's old and is for modeling? Probably for the sake of an argument some would call it advertising. Advertising to who? Are they worried that a few MRR's won't buy a bulldozer, or a scraper, a diesel engine.... a locomotive....because of this? Don't flatter yourself. I know several people who work and worked for Cat in Peoria. Cat worries about two main things, their equipment, and the people who PAY for their equipment.
They are protecting what is theirs. Unfortunately in todays society and legal interpretations, they have to even if it means you can't wire something on your old F-7 sitting in the back yard. If a site or a person uses copyrighted or trademarked items, and if the company knows about it and does nothing to protect it, that is a loophole for someone else to step into and wrangle a more lucritive use of the material for profit and Cat can lose it. Cat really probably doesn't give two shakes about the 40 or 70 year old out of production manuals for out of production things. It's just that they have to. Ask an attorney, and not someone you caught at the trash cans this morning who "just last night, watched an episode of Law and Order on this very subject".
MOST IMPORTANT for the purpose of the thread. The letter states ONLY copyrighted and trademarked material by the attached list. There is no attached list so we do not know specifically what it is they want removed. One person says they talked to someone involved and they say the manuals. Well, if the manuals are not copyrighted, as someone else here claims, then Cat is NOT talking bout the manuals. However, if the name or letters, EMD are copyrighted or Trademarked, then they may be protected in the online display of them including if they are used in the manual. Block out EMD and have at it? I don't know, maybe.
Last, many people don't mind if you borrow or use something. Just ask first. Nowhere in any conversation or letter has anyone said Cat has refused to allow these items to be posted under any circumstances. Has Fallen Flags tried to talk to Cat? Or are they pulling a "the man is out to get me" and just malking this out to be 100 times worse than it is.
Sad thing is, now it looks like I'll pass on that 1:1 GP-9 if I can't get the manual for free. Maybe an RS-2. I really kinda hoped to have one on the rails by fall to see all the pretty colors.
Back to our regularly scheduled .... discussion.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Todd,
Outstanding reply! Very clear and accurate explanation of the "protect it everywhere or lose it everywhere" situation with copyrights under the revised copyright / trademark laws passed in, I think it was, the late 1990s.
If Fallen Flags requests permission to display the materials and it's granted, protection is intact. Hopefully they can reach some such arrangement with Caterpillar.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Agreed Todd, great post.
Good post Todd!
Now for another perspective. Cat offers manuals on their web site, for a cost. I searched for and found one for a D2 for $39.00. That is a rather old machine!
Now what if EMD was offering the same? (can't tell from their web site, no historical info that I could find). This would put the whole issue into a different perspective. Now we would have copyrighted/trademarked material that is available from the source being made available for free from somewhere else. If the parent company is doing this, why not EMD? The letter would make more sense then.
Does anyone know?
Well stated, Todd. Too bad that most of the ones reading it will resist understanding why companies have to protect their trademarks and such, they just think the big man is out to get 'em. What I also find amusing is how many are mocking the lawyer because of the letter she wrote; the same folks that post horrendous replies with very poor spelling and grammar. People in glass houses....
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
"OMG and LOL" at this thread. This forum has turned turned into reality TV show.
Have any of you ever had anything stolen from you?
How about if I steal one of your photos from WPF of a nice model and use it on Ebay to sell mine?
Is that okay with you?
If you respond that its okay, your a fool and a liar.
Fallen flags should immediately remove all material until it acquires permission.
As far as boycotting CAT and thinking it will make difference? Have another drink
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I spoke to George Elwood a couple days ago and apparently CAT is feeling the PR pressure .... must have been all those e-mails they've received from individuals voicing their displeasure !
Apparently they want George to provide a list of the items he'd like to have posted on his site.
Sounds to me like they're more than willing to get along as long as the "rules" are followed - ask for permission and we'll work with you.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Is it legal for members to use the trademark "EMD" here? Shouldn't we at least be required to indicate that it is a trademark of Caterpillar, which is also a trademark of Caterpillar?
- Harry
HarryHotspur Is it legal for members to use the trademark "EMD" here? Shouldn't we at least be required to indicate that it is a trademark of Caterpillar, which is also a trademark of Caterpillar?
Yes to the former. It's called "fair use". See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use_(U.S._trademark_law)
and note particularly the words:
"A nonowner may also use a trademark nominatively—to refer to the actual trademarked product or its source."
And I would think no to the latter; though, if Caterpillar asked nicely, I would add it. Maybe.
Ed
I am gld that I downloaded the manuals for reference purposes.
I thought I was having deja vu reading all this. Having been on our negotiating end with CSX for the rights to use the ACL-SAL-SCL logos in our publications, and wading through and crossing off endless nonsensical "terms and conditions" for OVER 5 YEARS before we reached an agreement, I can tell you that a little friendly pressure will go a long way.
It worked for us. Yes, we acknowledge that we license these logos from CSX ..right on our website, but we managed to avoid becoming their "Hobby Cop" and I guess you can somewhat thank us there is not one of those little "tm" marks on every ACL and Seaboard model behind the herald as they wished. It bordered on bizarre.
AFAIK their overzealous "internet patrol" was sent onto other, more pressing missions after all this.
ABD / Director - Atlantic Coast Line & Seaboard Air Line Historical Society, Inc.
TA462 Cat has EVERY RIGHT to do what they are doing. It's their property. I don't think it's a good public relations move though. The lawyer's address is clearly written at the bottom of the letter. Who's up for a little email flooding by a bunch of irate model railroaders? Tell her how you fell?
Cat has EVERY RIGHT to do what they are doing. It's their property. I don't think it's a good public relations move though. The lawyer's address is clearly written at the bottom of the letter. Who's up for a little email flooding by a bunch of irate model railroaders? Tell her how you fell?
May I offer a ditto comment? It is EMD's right to do this...but I think the U23B, C628 and C420 just were solidifed as my favorite locomotives...
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout