TA462 Cat has EVERY RIGHT to do what they are doing. It's their property. I don't think it's a good public relations move though. The lawyer's address is clearly written at the bottom of the letter. Who's up for a little email flooding by a bunch of irate model railroaders? Tell her how you fell?
Cat has EVERY RIGHT to do what they are doing. It's their property. I don't think it's a good public relations move though. The lawyer's address is clearly written at the bottom of the letter. Who's up for a little email flooding by a bunch of irate model railroaders? Tell her how you fell?
May I offer a ditto comment? It is EMD's right to do this...but I think the U23B, C628 and C420 just were solidifed as my favorite locomotives...
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
I thought I was having deja vu reading all this. Having been on our negotiating end with CSX for the rights to use the ACL-SAL-SCL logos in our publications, and wading through and crossing off endless nonsensical "terms and conditions" for OVER 5 YEARS before we reached an agreement, I can tell you that a little friendly pressure will go a long way.
It worked for us. Yes, we acknowledge that we license these logos from CSX ..right on our website, but we managed to avoid becoming their "Hobby Cop" and I guess you can somewhat thank us there is not one of those little "tm" marks on every ACL and Seaboard model behind the herald as they wished. It bordered on bizarre.
AFAIK their overzealous "internet patrol" was sent onto other, more pressing missions after all this.
ABD / Director - Atlantic Coast Line & Seaboard Air Line Historical Society, Inc.
I am gld that I downloaded the manuals for reference purposes.
HarryHotspur Is it legal for members to use the trademark "EMD" here? Shouldn't we at least be required to indicate that it is a trademark of Caterpillar, which is also a trademark of Caterpillar?
Is it legal for members to use the trademark "EMD" here? Shouldn't we at least be required to indicate that it is a trademark of Caterpillar, which is also a trademark of Caterpillar?
Yes to the former. It's called "fair use". See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use_(U.S._trademark_law)
and note particularly the words:
"A nonowner may also use a trademark nominatively—to refer to the actual trademarked product or its source."
And I would think no to the latter; though, if Caterpillar asked nicely, I would add it. Maybe.
Ed
- Harry
I spoke to George Elwood a couple days ago and apparently CAT is feeling the PR pressure .... must have been all those e-mails they've received from individuals voicing their displeasure !
Apparently they want George to provide a list of the items he'd like to have posted on his site.
Sounds to me like they're more than willing to get along as long as the "rules" are followed - ask for permission and we'll work with you.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
"OMG and LOL" at this thread. This forum has turned turned into reality TV show.
Have any of you ever had anything stolen from you?
How about if I steal one of your photos from WPF of a nice model and use it on Ebay to sell mine?
Is that okay with you?
If you respond that its okay, your a fool and a liar.
Fallen flags should immediately remove all material until it acquires permission.
As far as boycotting CAT and thinking it will make difference? Have another drink
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Well stated, Todd. Too bad that most of the ones reading it will resist understanding why companies have to protect their trademarks and such, they just think the big man is out to get 'em. What I also find amusing is how many are mocking the lawyer because of the letter she wrote; the same folks that post horrendous replies with very poor spelling and grammar. People in glass houses....
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
Good post Todd!
Now for another perspective. Cat offers manuals on their web site, for a cost. I searched for and found one for a D2 for $39.00. That is a rather old machine!
Now what if EMD was offering the same? (can't tell from their web site, no historical info that I could find). This would put the whole issue into a different perspective. Now we would have copyrighted/trademarked material that is available from the source being made available for free from somewhere else. If the parent company is doing this, why not EMD? The letter would make more sense then.
Does anyone know?
Agreed Todd, great post.
Todd,
Outstanding reply! Very clear and accurate explanation of the "protect it everywhere or lose it everywhere" situation with copyrights under the revised copyright / trademark laws passed in, I think it was, the late 1990s.
If Fallen Flags requests permission to display the materials and it's granted, protection is intact. Hopefully they can reach some such arrangement with Caterpillar.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
You guys crack me up. You really know very little about what is going on and by the time this conversation is done, you watch...., Model Railroading will be dead again.
Cat is doing exactly what they say they are. Protecting copyrights and Trademarks. Would your Boss allow you to take business specific items from your work place and give them away? Even if they make no profit? Would Col Sanders give the recipe for Kentucky Fried Chicken to Marge down the street because she likes it and will only pass it to her friends, no businesses? Can you just print off all the Trademarked and copyrighted stuff you want as long as it's old and is for modeling? Probably for the sake of an argument some would call it advertising. Advertising to who? Are they worried that a few MRR's won't buy a bulldozer, or a scraper, a diesel engine.... a locomotive....because of this? Don't flatter yourself. I know several people who work and worked for Cat in Peoria. Cat worries about two main things, their equipment, and the people who PAY for their equipment.
They are protecting what is theirs. Unfortunately in todays society and legal interpretations, they have to even if it means you can't wire something on your old F-7 sitting in the back yard. If a site or a person uses copyrighted or trademarked items, and if the company knows about it and does nothing to protect it, that is a loophole for someone else to step into and wrangle a more lucritive use of the material for profit and Cat can lose it. Cat really probably doesn't give two shakes about the 40 or 70 year old out of production manuals for out of production things. It's just that they have to. Ask an attorney, and not someone you caught at the trash cans this morning who "just last night, watched an episode of Law and Order on this very subject".
MOST IMPORTANT for the purpose of the thread. The letter states ONLY copyrighted and trademarked material by the attached list. There is no attached list so we do not know specifically what it is they want removed. One person says they talked to someone involved and they say the manuals. Well, if the manuals are not copyrighted, as someone else here claims, then Cat is NOT talking bout the manuals. However, if the name or letters, EMD are copyrighted or Trademarked, then they may be protected in the online display of them including if they are used in the manual. Block out EMD and have at it? I don't know, maybe.
Last, many people don't mind if you borrow or use something. Just ask first. Nowhere in any conversation or letter has anyone said Cat has refused to allow these items to be posted under any circumstances. Has Fallen Flags tried to talk to Cat? Or are they pulling a "the man is out to get me" and just malking this out to be 100 times worse than it is.
Sad thing is, now it looks like I'll pass on that 1:1 GP-9 if I can't get the manual for free. Maybe an RS-2. I really kinda hoped to have one on the rails by fall to see all the pretty colors.
Back to our regularly scheduled .... discussion.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
I solomnly promise the ditzy young attorney for CAT, who is probably still in correspondence school, that I will scrape all EMD/GM decals off my diesels and any other model railroad equipment that I have currently running or will purchase in the future, so that I will not upset the fat cats at CAT (hey, that is cute).
I also promise to boycott any construction firm that uses any other brand of equpment but has the the CAT name on it to fool the public. However, I suggest you not come onto my property looking for "violations" on my model railroad, indoors or outdoors if you don't want to take a chance on getting charged with trespass. Otherwise I will find another mail order attorney to sue you.
Bob
Well...they do own the rights....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
The silliness will not stop until the US stops with perpetually extending the the copywrite to protect Mickey Mouse. Copywrites are a good thing and protect the creator of works. But it has now been extended to well past the lifetime of the creator, mainly to protect big corporate interests rather than the authors of creative works. The fact that a 70 year old locomotive manual is even remotely still subject to being copywrited material is the foolishness.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
This is the letter in question...it does so state in paragraph 2 precisely that fallenflags was in violation of EMD's copyright rights...
Let us face facts here...it is just like the situation with O.Winston Links photos...all you do is ask fr permission to do such a thing as reproduce the PDF...sheeesh
Stein: I think you haven´t read all of the posts... There is accusations of Copyright infringement in the letter from CAT.
And as there can´t be any copyrights on material published before 1976?!? I don´t see how they could demand it being removed from the site!
It may be the case that we, as modelers, don´t need the manuals. BUT, the same type of "Intellectual property" claims could just as well spread to other companies and then include drawings etc. etc. Then we´re really up$1***$2creek, knee high and no boat!
I get tired of corporations that try to stop the wealth of information that can be obtained through the Internet!
Sure, I might not be "entitled" to anything, but I think it´s a stupid way of doing business!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
dieselsmoke If I take a photo of a GP9 and then sell prints at a train show, I wonder if CAT would consider that an infringement of their copyright. The diesel is theirs, but the photo is mine. Jim
If I take a photo of a GP9 and then sell prints at a train show, I wonder if CAT would consider that an infringement of their copyright. The diesel is theirs, but the photo is mine.
Jim
Are you making a copy of the locomotive, which could be used as a functional replacement instead of buying a 1:1 scale engine from Cat/EMD? No? Then it is not a copyright violation.
On the other hand, scanning manuals and putting the resulting PDF up on a webserver is making a copy of EMDs manuals. Irrespective of whether you make money on your copy or not, and irrespective of whether Cat/EMD currently is printing new copies of those manuals and selling them.
In this thread, a lot of weird stuff has been posted. According to the letter sent by Cat's lawyer, Caterpilar is not accusing the website of trademark infringement, and they are not threatening to introduce a licensing fee for making scale models that look similar to the full scale locomotives EMD made and sold to railroads.
They are merely asking a web site to stop scanning printed manuals copyrighted by EMD and posting the resulting PDF files on a web server. It is not a totally outlandish request.
This whole thread is a bit of a tempest in a tea pot. Let's calm down the hysteria a little bit, eh?
How many of us actually need copies of the technical manuals for the locomotives in order to do model railroading? Why should we be entitled to free copies of these manuals?
Smile, Stein
Cat may be within their rights but for sure this is heavy handed and ill advised. Making manuals and other literature available that are no longer accesible through original channels is vital for restoration facilities and very helpful for modelers. I notice the letter is all about cease and desist or else and not please come sign an agreement so you can continue. I wonder where this all ends up? J.R.
carknocker1 the point everyone is missing is there is so much pirated CAT material out there , CAT will let you use their stuff you just have to ask and tell them what you are doing with it
the point everyone is missing is there is so much pirated CAT material out there , CAT will let you use their stuff you just have to ask and tell them what you are doing with it
Counterfeiting of the CAT logo and equipment is quite a large industry in some quarters. I see a lot of it in the electronics industry now as well. So, of course, there is going to be a bit of jumpiness within the corporate structure about this...
http://www.catmag.co.uk/headline-news-autodata-sinks-technology-pirates-in-counterfeiting-settlement
http://www.cyclops-electronics.com/index.php?_p_=114
http://oami.europa.eu/en/office/pdf/030325counterf.pdf
I think some of the paranoia that CAT may be experiencing is precisely because of the epidemic of counterfeit toys and such...
I have in my CAT collection..construction equipment..not the furry kind! LOL!...a roadscraper that has all the requisite markings of CATERPILLAR...the logo's are a bit fuzzy though, the way the model is constructed looks like it was made by Norscot but the bottom is not at all made from the same material as the rest..zinc casting anyone?...thankfully it was caught by the fellow at a toy show before he sold it to anyone..gave it to me....
Pathfinder As a business owner, I fully support businesses that protect their intellectual property rights. I too would be a wee bit upset if I found that my copyright/trademark materials were being used without my knowledge or permission. I have a hard time understanding why people think that corporations should make their property available for free to anyone to use anyway they see fit. It would appear that Cat does not have any issues with allowing companies to use their trademarks and copyrights, see Norscot as an example. And in this specific situation we are only getting one side of the story, Fallen Flags. Has there been any dialogue prior to the letter? Has FF tried to see what it would take use Cat/EMD material? I agree the letter, if that is the only correspondence, is a little off base and it could have been handled better. Lets hope that this whole thing does not backfire on the railway hobby. It would be a shame if Cat thought that comments posted to internet forums were a true representation of the hobbies ideals. They could easily say that its just not worth the hassle and bad PR and deny any kind of usage rights. Lets keep this all in perspective.
As a business owner, I fully support businesses that protect their intellectual property rights. I too would be a wee bit upset if I found that my copyright/trademark materials were being used without my knowledge or permission. I have a hard time understanding why people think that corporations should make their property available for free to anyone to use anyway they see fit.
It would appear that Cat does not have any issues with allowing companies to use their trademarks and copyrights, see Norscot as an example. And in this specific situation we are only getting one side of the story, Fallen Flags. Has there been any dialogue prior to the letter? Has FF tried to see what it would take use Cat/EMD material?
I agree the letter, if that is the only correspondence, is a little off base and it could have been handled better.
Lets hope that this whole thing does not backfire on the railway hobby. It would be a shame if Cat thought that comments posted to internet forums were a true representation of the hobbies ideals. They could easily say that its just not worth the hassle and bad PR and deny any kind of usage rights. Lets keep this all in perspective.
I'd just switch to John Deere.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
The only reason I can see for them doing this is because they want to sell copies of the manuals. Which seems pretty unlikely.
Also, that letter was confusing. She starts out talking about Trademarks and then switches over to a copyright complaint without explaining what copyright is being violated. Trademarks and copyrights are different things.
I agree though, it could be as simple as working out an agreement with EMD. It could be that CAT simply has more time and money to follow up on this than EMD did or GM cared to.
One other thought:
Much of this material is used as research for personal use by hobbyists, not for profit. I have a boatload of photos and drawings that I use for modeling and scratchbuilding purposes only- the results of which are for my own enjoyment. The derivative results of that material I collect (the structures, cars, etc) are not for profit, to be sure!
That is also similar to me, as a teacher, copying a copyrighted news article or photo to use in my non-profit public school classroom for education purposes on an incidental basis.
Perhaps this lawyer's skills could be used more productively by ensuring that litigation costs are kept to a minumum fo her employer/client. If that were the case, a more conciliatory approach might be to remind the Fallen Flags site that a copyright concern exists as regards EMD and make an initial offer to negotiate a licensing or permissory agreement. One would think that she would have reearched the matter sufficiently to be informed about the UP situation, etc- but I forget, she may be young and less well-educated than lawyers of another era, despite her access to far more comprehensive information thru LEXIS/Nexus and other on-line tools.
At any rate, it would seem that the secondary/tertiary resale markets that exist in the form of periodic flea markets/ swap meets, would bevirtually impossible to control as to EMD copyright materials. The fact that modeling production has gone on for a significant time frame (over 60 years?) may well factor into the viability of a lawsuit against manufacturers. I would think that is a case were brought, a reasonable alternative might well be suggested by the judge, vis-a-vis the licensing agreement aggrangement obtained by UP previously.
Are things that bad in Peoria these days?
My 2 cents (sorry, inflation and present economic circumstances have reduced that to .02 cents!)
Cedarwoodron
Mike Kieran I agree, but UP, CSX, & now EMD are just the tip of the iceberg. What worries me is how this plays out down the road. Will various components of the railroad industries (railroads and equipment manufacturing companies) claim licensing and charge a fee? If they do that, how does the model railroad industry deal with that. The argument against the rail industry is that it was common practice for models to be made without license. The models are emulations and do not pose a competitive threat to their prototype offerings.The rail industry's tactic will be to tie the case up in court with cease and desist orders. If Hobby manufacturers how much would licensing fees to the various members of the railroad industry, how much would that drive up the cost of models, and for that matter, how it would affect swap meets and online auction sites for "selling their intellectual property." Live gets exponentially more difficult thanks to some shady rainmaker lawyers out there. P.S., I already emailed George Elwood and he said that they wanted him to remove 70 year old manuals from his website (FTs, NW2s, etc.)
I agree, but UP, CSX, & now EMD are just the tip of the iceberg. What worries me is how this plays out down the road. Will various components of the railroad industries (railroads and equipment manufacturing companies) claim licensing and charge a fee? If they do that, how does the model railroad industry deal with that.
The argument against the rail industry is that it was common practice for models to be made without license. The models are emulations and do not pose a competitive threat to their prototype offerings.The rail industry's tactic will be to tie the case up in court with cease and desist orders.
If Hobby manufacturers how much would licensing fees to the various members of the railroad industry, how much would that drive up the cost of models, and for that matter, how it would affect swap meets and online auction sites for "selling their intellectual property."
Live gets exponentially more difficult thanks to some shady rainmaker lawyers out there.
P.S., I already emailed George Elwood and he said that they wanted him to remove 70 year old manuals from his website (FTs, NW2s, etc.)
Playing a hunch, do they still sell those manuals, to musuems and shortlines? Are they afraid of those third hand companies printing them for free?
-Morgan
If hobby manufacturers pay licensing fees to the various members of the railroad industry, how much would that drive up the cost of models, and for that matter, how it would affect swap meets and online auction sites for "selling their intellectual property."
Life gets exponentially more difficult thanks to some shady rainmaker lawyers out there.
__________________________________________________________________
Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
And I am SURE ALL those people who make and sell CAT hats have permission to use the CAT logo!
I own a cat; hopefully, they will not come after me next!!
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
MisterBeasley We really should wait to see what happens downstream. The letter sounded to me like legalistic boilerplate. In a situation like this, CAT has to "defend" its copyright, particularly for names and logos, so that someone else can't come along, point to the Fallen Flags site, and then poach the copyrights because CAT is not "defending" them. They haven't asked for damages or licensing fees. My guess is, the FF guys could call them up, draft an agreement that indicates they are not making commercial use of these things (as evidenced by their dot-org URL) and CAT will agree to let them use the stuff again. And if they don't agree, then we can tell them what we think of them.
We really should wait to see what happens downstream. The letter sounded to me like legalistic boilerplate. In a situation like this, CAT has to "defend" its copyright, particularly for names and logos, so that someone else can't come along, point to the Fallen Flags site, and then poach the copyrights because CAT is not "defending" them.
They haven't asked for damages or licensing fees. My guess is, the FF guys could call them up, draft an agreement that indicates they are not making commercial use of these things (as evidenced by their dot-org URL) and CAT will agree to let them use the stuff again.
And if they don't agree, then we can tell them what we think of them.
Well spoken and bang on.