When I first saw this thread, I figured it would become a real flame fest. How delightful that after 60+ replies, it isn't. Way to go guys!
Jim - Preserving the history of the NKP Cloverleaf first subdivision.
secondhandmodeler Blasphemy!
Blasphemy!
For real! I loves steam and I'd been born in 1983 and only knew steam engines in excursion service plus Thomas the Tank Engine and friends. For me, the variety, visual aesthetics, and even the human qualities I see in steam will always keep me drawn to them.
That said, I do understand the criticisms of how steam engines have yet to mature when it comes to how the models operate compared to the real thing. Seeing steam engines produce the sound they do now, getting better sure, and the lack of proper smoke is a turn-off for me too, but I'm still ever drawn to steam locomotives.
Alvie
Jamis When I first saw this thread, I figured it would become a real flame fest. How delightful that after 60+ replies, it isn't. Way to go guys!
Jim:
It might have to do with the Original Poster, who is a good modeler with a wicked sense of humor. I think he was 'feeling his oats', so most of us just went along with him. He's a likeable cuss, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Hmm, I don't model steam, I don't model passenger servcie, and one could say that's because I didn't get to experience it since I was born in 74. But to use that argument against itself, why then am I modeling the PC freight operations? Gone before I was born so I should be modeling Conrail. Or maybe the Shaker Rapid Transit since I grew up next to it. (that may still happen now that Bowser is supposed to be releasing PCC cars painted for Cleveland)
It's simply that I model what I like and partially that some stuff is overdone/hyped up/commonplace. Everyone makes a big deal about a steam layout and coal mines. Whoopee another one. Probably the same reason I'm deliberately trying to avoid EMD locos, does the modeling world really need yet another F unit? Let's not forget that diesels are a lot less finicky and maintainence intensive that steam, both prototype and model.
On the flipside though I can and do apreciate steam locos for what they were, machines who's sole purpose was to move trains. Simple yet complex, the basic idea was simple but to make it work the best it could was complex. Whats the purpose of a diesel loco? To move trains. Note that neither had any purpose approaching romanticisim or feeling good about life. They did their jobs untill something better came along, and so too will it go for diesels. We just don't know what their replacement will be yet. Heck folks are already bemoaning the disappearance of 1st gen diesels.
So lock me in Alocos layout room too and we'll run our diesels.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
My four-year old grandson, interested in trains and familiar with diesels and steamers for about two years, came over to my grandpa chair and pounded on the arm with his fist: "Diesels are dirty, smelly, oily old stinkpots! I LOVE steam engines!"
Now at almost six, he shows the same wise insight, even tho he wasn't around in any part of the steam era. He's never seen a live steamer.
This may be slightly humorous, but it also brings out a point, aloco. Think about it.
What was your point, if any, in posting your original diatribe of negative feelings?
Dick Chaffer
jrcBoze What was your point, if any, in posting your original diatribe of negative feelings? Dick Chaffer
Dick,
It is felt that the OP is a nice young man who was just expressing his own opinion in a respectful manner. Diatribe is perhaps a little harsh in describing his posting....
I've rather enjoyed reading this entire thread and do respect this young modeler for his skills and demeanor---he seems very mature and I bet a lot can be learned from him.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
I've read a couple of posts on "the demise of the American Railroad", and I'm confused. When did that happen?
Yes, passenger rail fell victim to competition from the highway and the airport, but freight is alive and well. In fact, our freight system is the envy of the world, hauling more ton-miles, making more profits, and with a better infrastructure than anywhere else.
Part of the reason they're in the shape they are is that they've been able to continuously cut operating expenses -- of which fuel and labor are major components. Obviously, we'll never know for sure, but my gut tells me that dieselization was a major force in that equation.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I used to feel like the OP did. My New Haven layout is set in 1956 (3 years after the last NH steamer dropped it's fire). I absolutely love the look of the old, streamlined diesels (even the RS-1/2/3). I admit some models are "boxes on wheels", but some of the modern ones are getting a sweet, high-tech look to them. Almost makes me want to do a modern layout some day.
However, I've come to change my mind. I now operate in an alternate reality where the NH kept some steam hanging around until the 1960s. Why? Because I like the look of them chugging around. What made me change my mind? I'm not sure -- I know I liked steam before I started volunteering at the Valley Railroad, and I'm not old enough to remember any operating steam (other than tourist attractions). My parents used to take me to the East Broad Top in Orbisonia PA when I was little. Maybe that was it. Whatever the reason, steam is alive and well on my layout.
So we'll each model what pleases us, no matter what the rest think. Although, for what it's worth, I HAVE had at least two different people tell me that I'm not a real model railroader, because I model New Haven steam in 1956....
sfcouple It is felt that the OP is a nice young man who was just expressing his own opinion in a respectful manner. Diatribe is perhaps a little harsh in describing his posting...
It is felt that the OP is a nice young man who was just expressing his own opinion in a respectful manner. Diatribe is perhaps a little harsh in describing his posting...
Opinions are like rear ends, everybody has one.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
sfcouple jrcBoze: What was your point, if any, in posting your original diatribe of negative feelings? Dick Chaffer Dick, It is felt that the OP is a nice young man who was just expressing his own opinion in a respectful manner. Diatribe is perhaps a little harsh in describing his posting.... I've rather enjoyed reading this entire thread and do respect this young modeler for his skills and demeanor---he seems very mature and I bet a lot can be learned from him. Wayne
jrcBoze: What was your point, if any, in posting your original diatribe of negative feelings? Dick Chaffer
That's a rather curious statement.
How can a lot be learned from him?
Rich
Alton Junction
mmmmm...Are we trying to push some buttons, mate?
Well, the OP did not come across as a cranky old curmudgeon to me...that would have been an instant invite to hoohawland then...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I always say to each his own on everything. Shoot I was born in Late 1982. Steam was gone for awhile by then. But I do have 4 steam locos in my Roster. UP's 4-8-4 #844 and 4-6-6-4 #3985, the SP Daylight GS-4, and NKP 765. I've only seen #844 in person but when I saw that beauty in operation I got bit by the steam bug. Since I only model modern era, I will only have steam that still operates but I think they can be replicated pretty well especially with puffing smoke and dcc it can seem pretty real.
-J
richhotrain sfcouple: jrcBoze: What was your point, if any, in posting your original diatribe of negative feelings? Dick Chaffer Dick, It is felt that the OP is a nice young man who was just expressing his own opinion in a respectful manner. Diatribe is perhaps a little harsh in describing his posting.... I've rather enjoyed reading this entire thread and do respect this young modeler for his skills and demeanor---he seems very mature and I bet a lot can be learned from him. Wayne That's a rather curious statement. How can a lot be learned from him? Rich
sfcouple: jrcBoze: What was your point, if any, in posting your original diatribe of negative feelings? Dick Chaffer Dick, It is felt that the OP is a nice young man who was just expressing his own opinion in a respectful manner. Diatribe is perhaps a little harsh in describing his posting.... I've rather enjoyed reading this entire thread and do respect this young modeler for his skills and demeanor---he seems very mature and I bet a lot can be learned from him. Wayne
A curious statement? Everyone has something to contribute, we can learn a lot from others and I was being polite to the OP. He came across as a very mature young man who expressed his opinions in a respectful manner that didn't come anywhere near the level of a diatribe. This has been a very interesting, entertaining thread and I'll repeat: A lot can be learned from him.
sfcouple He came across as a very mature young man who expressed his opinions in a respectful manner that didn't come anywhere near the level of a diatribe. This has been a very interesting, entertaining thread and I'll repeat: A lot can be learned from him. Wayne
He came across as a very mature young man who expressed his opinions in a respectful manner that didn't come anywhere near the level of a diatribe. This has been a very interesting, entertaining thread and I'll repeat: A lot can be learned from him.
Wayne:
Especially how to start a potentially EXPLOSIVE thread without explosions. I'm with you--I think the OP did a good job of presenting his subject. So far, it's been a very good thread.
Pg. 6 anyone?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Meh....
andrechapelon Is that really true? I wasn't around when sailing ships were the primary means of ocean transportation, but I find them extremely fascinating. A lack of day to day unfamiliarity really isn't a reason for not likeing something. I also wasn't around when stationary steam engines powered factories, but I'm quite willing to pay to see an industrial steam engine in action. And if someone's got an old steam tractor steamed up, well..... An Edsel is unappealing because, well, quite frankly, Edsels are ugly (and their mothers dressed 'em funny). They also represent the excesses of the 50's at their worst. Andre
Is that really true? I wasn't around when sailing ships were the primary means of ocean transportation, but I find them extremely fascinating. A lack of day to day unfamiliarity really isn't a reason for not likeing something. I also wasn't around when stationary steam engines powered factories, but I'm quite willing to pay to see an industrial steam engine in action. And if someone's got an old steam tractor steamed up, well.....
An Edsel is unappealing because, well, quite frankly, Edsels are ugly (and their mothers dressed 'em funny). They also represent the excesses of the 50's at their worst.
Andre
You make an excellent point, Mike.
The production of the Edsel is significant in respect of the lesson learned of what can happen when a car is designed by a committe and the result of market reseach?
Bruce
Wow - 6 pages of arguments! I´d never thought this thread would last that long before getting locked
Though I would not follow down the road the OP is heading, I understand the reasoning behind his position. It is quite difficult for someone who has never experienced steam locomotives in service to develop the same affection as those of us who have seen steam in daily operation.
I grew up at a time when steam was still the predominant traction in Germany. Watching trains meant watching steam locos, seeing them in action, hearing and smelling them. How many times had I been standing on a bridge with a steam train passing underneath? Some of you may know this feeling of being encompassed by the smoke of the loco, the smell of coal and hot oil.
In the 1960´s, steam started to disappear, being replaced by shiny Diesels or electrics. But what a disappointment! Though being much more efficient, they lacked the character of steam locos, they had no "soul" of their own. By 1977, all steam was gone on Deutsche Bundesbahn and that year meant the end of my interest in the real world trains, but the start of my love for models of steam locos.
That´s why I am interested in steam!
Growing up in the seventies I used to be the same way it was diesels all the way. But then I started learning about operations and prototype modeling I found myself moving backward in time.
Part of what drew me to steam engines was all the care that was needed to keep them going. It added a lot more depth to my operations. Along with the other operations unique to the fifty’s.
But now my affiliation with the Illinois railway museum and their trolley and interurban collection has me wanting to go back another 10 years. The thing is where you end up may not be where you started.
As for the smoke and the smell they haven’t really addressed that with diesels either. Steam engines were not as Smokey as you think. Sure they smoked when climbing a grade or a heavy load or cleaning the flues. But on down grade there was only light smoke and a lot of heat waves.
Bill
A few months ago NKP 2-8-4 Berkshire #765 came through the Cleveland area for a few days of excursions. I and a buddy of mine went down to see it one Saturday evening. They were loading the tender with a small crane. It was a real joy to stand near to such a large beast and watch it "breathe" in and out, like a large dormant animal.
What blew my mind the most was when the engineer released the hand brake and the Berkshire came to life and started moving. There was very little exhaust smoke and the chuff was practically inaudible. Had I been standing a 100' in front of and my back to it and asked to move off the tracks when I thought the locomotive was getting near, it would have run me over.
It truly was a beautiful sight for a guy who was too young to see steam operate in daily life. You don't have to live in the same day or era to appreciate something that in imbued with such grace and beauty.
Born too late to see steam or trolleys but love them both..........................
andrechapelon His message is that he just doesn't know steam, and he finds it about as appealing as many of us find an Edsel appealing Is that really true? I wasn't around when sailing ships were the primary means of ocean transportation, but I find them extremely fascinating. A lack of day to day unfamiliarity really isn't a reason for not likeing something. I also wasn't around when stationary steam engines powered factories, but I'm quite willing to pay to see an industrial steam engine in action. And if someone's got an old steam tractor steamed up, well..... An Edsel is unappealing because, well, quite frankly, Edsels are ugly (and their mothers dressed 'em funny). They also represent the excesses of the 50's at their worst. Andre
His message is that he just doesn't know steam, and he finds it about as appealing as many of us find an Edsel appealing
Amen to that about the Edsel. I was around when they came out, and thought they were ugly then. After the clean lines of the '56 Chevys, the Edsels and Cadillacs of '58 were sort of like seeing Audrey Hepburn turn into Shelly Winters - trim to blowsy in just two years. But in '58 I was fortunate to watch as double headed Nickel Plate Berks climbed the sweeping curved grade along the Maumee to the elevated track across the north edge of Fort Wayne. As a 7 and 8 year old in Decatur, Illinois, in '50 and '51 I was privileged to ride behind those impressive blue semi-streamlined Wabash P-1 4-6-4s, elephant ear deflectors and all. (They must have worked - never did see hide nor hair of an elephant between Decatur and Peru, not even from Cole Bros. circus, let alone did the train run into one.) I even got to ride the Illinois Terminal interurbans swishing quietly up through the cornfields, transfer to the Roarin' Elgin, and on into the heart of Chicago via the El - and to see the Railroad Fair.
I am familiar with all the reasons diesels took over - reduced maintenance costs, lower crew costs, less track wear, and the reduction in infrastructure costs due to elimination or massive reduction of ash servicing and water supply. But diseasels are, frankly, boring. As boring as a unit coal train or a long stream of double stacks full of goods we no longer make here. Both are efficient, but give me flat cars and box cars of several varieties and tank cars and stock cars and reefers and gondolas and hoppers - and with dozens and dozens, not just four, railroad names heralded on their sides. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for a time when we made things here other than "reality" shows, and people had jobs and the distribution of wealth looked like a bell curve rather than a ski jump.
PS - John Galt lives on the top floor of the two story outhouse called trickle down economics.
"the lack of proper smoke ..." applies to diesels as well
your the type who would love live steam modeling. ridem cowboy!...errm Engineer!
I never saw a big boy in action but you have to see "Last of the Giants" and that will grab you.
One segment of a recording of a DM&IR 2-8-8-4 I have hard working with a fog horn blasting away sends chills down your spine. I had to own the HO engine which I do. Then DCC sound it up right.
If you really need specific road designs going brass is the best way. But many of the model manufacturers do do specific roads as well. USRA design was fairly common because of the war years and true each road specified to their own needs. But many of the manufactures got smart to do it up right.
Its not possible to enjoy many of our favorite locomotives today in reality, so you go the model way, you have to. I like it all, prototype, model you have it so there ya go.
What bugs me is all new folks out there get "Thomas the Tank engine" well, one way to get interest but its not the real deal.
Like you, to really enjoy steam, you join a place that runs them all the time like East Broad Top and all the other working steam museums.
aloco I notice there are a lot of steam loco enthusiasts on this forum, and whenever I come across a steam-related thread I just bleep right over it. Why? First, I am too young to remember the steam era. The last steam locomotives were taken out of service the year I was born. Without any real steam locomotives to inspire me, I have no incentive to model them. Second, after having seen a couple real steam locomotives operating at museums I found it much more exciting to see the real thing than to look at a model running on a layout. The steam, the smoke, the sparks, the flames, the smell, and the chugging of a real steam loco can't be replicated in miniature, especially not with electrically powered model railroad equipment. Third, real steam locos are built to the railways' specifications. I would not be satisfied with commercial plastic models of USRA Mikados or Pacifics. I'd probably throw everything away except the drive train and wheels and end up scratchbuilding the boiler, cab, and tender and adding prototype specific details. That's a lot of work. But with diesels, there were standard production models purchased by many railways, and less effort is required to model a specific prototype.
I notice there are a lot of steam loco enthusiasts on this forum, and whenever I come across a steam-related thread I just bleep right over it. Why?
First, I am too young to remember the steam era. The last steam locomotives were taken out of service the year I was born. Without any real steam locomotives to inspire me, I have no incentive to model them.
Second, after having seen a couple real steam locomotives operating at museums I found it much more exciting to see the real thing than to look at a model running on a layout. The steam, the smoke, the sparks, the flames, the smell, and the chugging of a real steam loco can't be replicated in miniature, especially not with electrically powered model railroad equipment.
Third, real steam locos are built to the railways' specifications. I would not be satisfied with commercial plastic models of USRA Mikados or Pacifics. I'd probably throw everything away except the drive train and wheels and end up scratchbuilding the boiler, cab, and tender and adding prototype specific details. That's a lot of work. But with diesels, there were standard production models purchased by many railways, and less effort is required to model a specific prototype.