m horton I wonder who the op is referring to. There are some very good modelers that come in here and they definitely know there stuff(rivet counters). Maybe they're on different forums, ones that actually talk about modeling, not bemoaning the rtr,hobby is dying,cost of hobby,or giving attaboys to some poster's sub-par model over and over and over.
I wonder who the op is referring to. There are some very good modelers that come in here and they definitely know there stuff(rivet counters). Maybe they're on different forums, ones that actually talk about modeling, not bemoaning the rtr,hobby is dying,cost of hobby,or giving attaboys to some poster's sub-par model over and over and over.
Actually there are advance modelers that strive on "attaboys!" but,seldom give one in return on anybodies model good,so/so or bad.Many do be moan RTR models since these models are like the high detailed kits they love so well..
Of course I'm on 7 different forums and see all types of modelers so,I think I have a fairly good picture and the" good enoughers" still reign supreme.
I have been a member of several clubs and I have visited many clubs over the past few years and 90% of the modelers I've met has been average modelers and quite friendly..I met some advance modelers that was good guys..
All to sadly and on the plug ugly side I have met those that thought they was above all and God's gift to model railroading..
I've met some I have wondered why they are even in the hobby because they continually find fault and nothing seems to please them.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Johnnny_reb Hey Doc, how meny you got? I could use a few rivets. Use to work the line at McDonald Douglas building 747 Sud doors, 737 Aoe doors and a few I can't remember the names of
Hey Doc, how meny you got? I could use a few rivets.
Use to work the line at McDonald Douglas building 747 Sud doors, 737 Aoe doors and a few I can't remember the names of
Are they related to McDonnell Douglas, the company that makes those planes?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I consider myself a 'middle-of-the-road' modeler simply because my approach to the hobby is one of relaxation. My profession is that of a classical musician, and believe me, when you've spent four hours at the piano trying to perfect eight measures of difficult music, I need something to just 'unwind' with, and that's my MR layout.
With that said, I don't mind 'rivet counters' (a phrase that I think has become derogatoury lately), and we've got a few on the forum that I really, REALLY admire because they're willing to share their expertise with the rest of us in a helpful and constructive manner (for instance: take a bow, Wayne and Jay, you've earned it, IMO!). .
I think it all boils down to the printed word--exactly HOW to write a helpful critique without it becoming either Pedantic or overly critical of the project at hand. Some people can do it, others seem to have a communication problem as soon as they sit down at the computer keyboard. On the few occasions when I've been asked to either comment or critique another modeler's efforts, I've had to really spend a lot of time considering and re-writing my thoughts as not to appear like some of the self-appointed Music Critics I'VE had to put up with in my career, LOL! It's not easy, believe me. And yes, I've been the recipient of some comments that I feel have been unnessecarily hurtful when the poster might have actually been trying to help. It's a matter of communication of the printed word.
The best advice on criticism I ever got was from the late, great pianist John Browning--Always, ALWAYS start out with the Positive--it gives you a solid foundation on how to help 're-construct' whatever you're working on.
Makes sense to me.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I'm sure your last statements are true, but then we meet those type of people in every facet of life including model railroaders.
I believe "rivet counters" is a bad name, there are many guys who study their prototype and want only true fidelity in all aspects of their modeling. A loud mouth boor may not even be a good modeler.
m horton I believe "rivet counters" is a bad name, there are many guys who study their prototype and want only true fidelity in all aspects of their modeling. A loud mouth boor may not even be a good modeler.
I agree..I perfer to call 'em advance modelers then" rivet counters"..
For those other types I have a unprintable name for 'em since they give good modelers a bad name..
One rivet,two rivets,three rivets.
V8Vega See also, OK, I know I'm going to get FLAMED over this one! and It's "MODEL" Railroading, still current on this forum. It seems to me there are plenty of rivet counters on this forum. But then I'm a High Railer. Hot Rod magazine though as a example has always featured millionare owned, professionally built cars beyond the reach of most car enthusist. The idea being to give you something to strive for. Dennis San Fernando Valley CA.
See also, OK, I know I'm going to get FLAMED over this one! and It's "MODEL" Railroading, still current on this forum. It seems to me there are plenty of rivet counters on this forum. But then I'm a High Railer.
Hot Rod magazine though as a example has always featured millionare owned, professionally built cars beyond the reach of most car enthusist. The idea being to give you something to strive for.
Dennis San Fernando Valley CA.
Or perhaps envy?
I always suspect that goes on a lot in all hobbies.
Kinda like those Godzilla size and mega dollar layouts that fills a 30'x40' basement that's well above the average modeler's reach.
One should have obtainable goals that's within his means instead of fantasy goals that is well above his means..
Fun comes in lots of flavors. I like to replicate real life as best I can. Others don't find this necessary and that's perfectly fine. The problem arises when one group insists that their group is correct, only. It's just not so..
Fun, reward, etc. should be the end game when all is said and done IMHO.
Packers#1So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is *gasp* SHIFTING? Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place? Does this make any sense? I've just noticed this over the past few years
So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is *gasp* SHIFTING?
Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?
Does this make any sense? I've just noticed this over the past few years
BRAKIE m horton: I believe "rivet counters" is a bad name, there are many guys who study their prototype and want only true fidelity in all aspects of their modeling. A loud mouth boor may not even be a good modeler. I agree..I perfer to call 'em advance modelers then" rivet counters".. For those other types I have a unprintable name for 'em since they give good modelers a bad name..
m horton: I believe "rivet counters" is a bad name, there are many guys who study their prototype and want only true fidelity in all aspects of their modeling. A loud mouth boor may not even be a good modeler.
They aren't necessarilly advanced modelers. Some are enthusiasts that know everything about particular loco's/rolling stock. Kind of like the character in the movie Rainman
Springfield PA
I think the folks interested in telling the rest of us what was acceptable real model railroading have mostly left.
While the term "rivet counter" has had a pejorative connotation for as long as I can remember, the desire for accuracy in one's own modeling doesn't have that same connotation at least for me. The level of accuracy each of us desires and is willing to strive for varies greatly between us and may vary for each of us over time.
When I started in this hobby, I was thrilled to just get a layout built and trains running. Over the years I have become more interested in more accurate modeling in some areas, but not others. But what I really like is good looking models. This is subjective, what I find appealing others may find awful. Thus I am perfectly happy running my Gorre & Daphetid boxcar (Pacific Rail Shops 1937 AAR boxcar) on my layout because it has nice detail and looks good, others will feel that a fantasy railroad car has no place on a model railroad. And that's okay since I feel we each should do what pleases us.
Enjoy
Paul
TA462 BRAKIE: V8Vega: See also, OK, I know I'm going to get FLAMED over this one! and It's "MODEL" Railroading, still current on this forum. It seems to me there are plenty of rivet counters on this forum. But then I'm a High Railer. Hot Rod magazine though as a example has always featured millionare owned, professionally built cars beyond the reach of most car enthusist. The idea being to give you something to strive for. Dennis San Fernando Valley CA. Or perhaps envy? I always suspect that goes on a lot in all hobbies. Kinda like those Godzilla size and mega dollar layouts that fills a 30'x40' basement that's well above the average modeler's reach. One should have obtainable goals that's within his means instead of fantasy goals that is well above his means.. I disagree with you Brakie. Obtainable goals in most hobbies are a possibility but only if people want to try to reach that goal. Most people don't want to because of the fear of failure. Failure is a huge deterent in all aspects of life for most people.
BRAKIE: V8Vega: See also, OK, I know I'm going to get FLAMED over this one! and It's "MODEL" Railroading, still current on this forum. It seems to me there are plenty of rivet counters on this forum. But then I'm a High Railer. Hot Rod magazine though as a example has always featured millionare owned, professionally built cars beyond the reach of most car enthusist. The idea being to give you something to strive for. Dennis San Fernando Valley CA. Or perhaps envy? I always suspect that goes on a lot in all hobbies. Kinda like those Godzilla size and mega dollar layouts that fills a 30'x40' basement that's well above the average modeler's reach. One should have obtainable goals that's within his means instead of fantasy goals that is well above his means..
V8Vega: See also, OK, I know I'm going to get FLAMED over this one! and It's "MODEL" Railroading, still current on this forum. It seems to me there are plenty of rivet counters on this forum. But then I'm a High Railer. Hot Rod magazine though as a example has always featured millionare owned, professionally built cars beyond the reach of most car enthusist. The idea being to give you something to strive for. Dennis San Fernando Valley CA.
I disagree with you Brakie. Obtainable goals in most hobbies are a possibility but only if people want to try to reach that goal. Most people don't want to because of the fear of failure. Failure is a huge deterent in all aspects of life for most people.
Absolutely that's why they must have obtainable goals based on their skills not skills may never learn even after several attempts..I seen that happen many times over the years.
I know my limitations as far as what I can and can not do and I can accept that where a lot of folks can't.
The most important skill is learning your limitations and fine turning the skills you have..
All I can say I am glad the hobby doesn't require all that many skills to be enjoyed.
The truth is that on the real railroads, they make do, just when you say it is not prototypical, someone shows up with a pic. I have seen diesels rescued by steam, a steam, diesel, interurban lash-up and other strange things. Had one person scream that so and so railroad never had so and so engine and then a pic shows up (it was a real photo), wasn't even on the official roster!!!!!!!!
The "rivet counters" are around (thank god), but have moved on to other forums where things are taken a little more seriously. Nothing wrong with here nor there, but I know I grow tired of seeing bad pictures of some "weathering" that looks like they used come crayons and shoe polish and screwed up a perfectly nice locomotive.I remember your first attempts at things Sawyer, your stuff was "okay" but could have been better. Instead of running away crying and hitting the "abuse" button you used much of the advice and started using weathering powders and prototype photos to make your rolling stock look much better. You have come a long way from those days, perhaps you should think a rivet counter instead of creating post bashing them. Merry Christmas SawyerI'm far flung from being exactly prototypical, but I can recognize that a Big Boy that has been patched to "Montana Rail Link" pulling some Amtrak cars that was weathering by burying everything in the back yard for 6 months looks absolutely stupid. I don't care WHAT anyone thinks. I know the saying, "Its your railroad, do what you want" I agree 100%, just don't post a picture of the above example and expect everyone to give attaboys. Some will speak out and the risk of being flamed by the group and oh my goodness possibly a mod will step in and defend the helpless picture poster. There are forums out there where the modeling is absolutely awesome, and instead of feeling intimidated and running away, I want to replicate that modeling by learning the skills and discipline it takes to get to that level. For those whom wish to remain mediocre, good for you, just don't flame them because they are better modelers, they are taking the hobby to a new level. What are you doing to the hobby?A lot of people should just play with tinplate, why even dabble in scale models if your not even going to try?I thank the rivet counters for good looking track, locomotives and rolling stock, and elevating the hobby. I hope to get to that level some day, unfortunately, it won't happen here.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
modelmaker51 Another rivet counter still here! I only share my opinions if asked. It is a shame (but his perogative) that the OP is ready to settle for medeocrity. I was tought to be the best that I could be and if I was going to do something, do the best that I can often that requires counting rivets.
Another rivet counter still here! I only share my opinions if asked. It is a shame (but his perogative) that the OP is ready to settle for medeocrity. I was tought to be the best that I could be and if I was going to do something, do the best that I can often that requires counting rivets.
Allow me to clarify what I meant by the rivet counter:
I was referencing the "troll" style of rivet counter who gives their opinion in a higher-than-thou, know-it-all way. Critique is necessary to make better models, which we all must strive for. I myself have no problem with someone who is going to give their opinion to help make my model better. I think those folks are still here and still pushing us. I was reffering to, like I said, the snob who thinks their model railroad is THE WAY AND ONLY WAY!
ndbprr brought up an excellent point about who do you want answering your question? A well-informed individual does not a rivet-counter make. As a hobby, it is absolutely necessary to have those who know what they're talking about. It's just nice to not have them saying a model is crap even though someone worked hard on it.
Chuck on page two put what I'm trying to say perfectly. There are those that will suggest and others with the my way or the highway approach. I meant this as a commentary because I've run into some of these types on forums in the past, but it seems they've disappeared, at least where I go for online foruming.
Stein put it exactly how I'm trying to say it.
Twhite, i was wondering where in the HECK you've been! and ditto, Wayne is one of the guys who does it right; critique but not belittle.
I'd love to see that handlaying turnout post; I actually ahve wanted to scratchbuild, jsut dunno where to start.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
TA462 Packers#1: Allow me to clarify what I meant by the rivet counter: I was referencing the "troll" style of rivet counter who gives their opinion in a higher-than-thou, know-it-all way. Dude, I'm on this site a couple times a day, every day. I don't see people like what your describing here. Those people seem to be brought up all the time though. I think your back tracking, lol.
Packers#1: Allow me to clarify what I meant by the rivet counter: I was referencing the "troll" style of rivet counter who gives their opinion in a higher-than-thou, know-it-all way.
I was referencing the "troll" style of rivet counter who gives their opinion in a higher-than-thou, know-it-all way.
Dude, I'm on this site a couple times a day, every day. I don't see people like what your describing here. Those people seem to be brought up all the time though. I think your back tracking, lol.
Actually there was 2 or 3 not so long ago but,they seem to have move along to bigger and better things.
There was one jolly soul that was on my six like a MIG on a Tomcat every time I made a reply.
.I haven't seen him around on any forum for the past 3-4 years.
I am finding it difficult to see where this thread can go from there that will improve it in any way, or at least add something to it that we haven't already discussed this time or in previous incarnations.
It seems to me that it boils down to 'delivery.' Some people know how to give critcism and advice, while others seem to be blunt about it. On the receiving end, there are those who can distance themselves from the emotional aspect of the hobby, and about which they are receiving feedback, while others are easily...umm....bruised.
In the end, dialog is what should get us through the differences. Sometimes that dialog works okay out here, but other times it is best kept private using the 'Start a Conversation' function.
Time to move on.
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