blownout cylindercan't we just suggest that as a CYA?
On a $12-15 Con-Cor car? Sure. On a premium $35-40 ExactRail car?...Auh, let me think a minute...
okay... Auh, no.
But that's just me.
As for your friends who find ExactRail cars "accurate enough for them..."they're probably right. It all comes down to your definition of 'Accuracy'.
All things being equal here, let it be understood that for me(I originally started this topic), I have no problems(thus far) with any of the other ExactRail cars that I've purchased - those cars have been reseached to the extent that I'm satisfied that the model offered is close to prototypical appearance and detail as one could probably offer...Most of their products I'm quite pleased with...all the more reason I've been miffed about the Waffle Box car.
This is an old topic revived by a new reader and I've pretty much made my points, so you guys carry on if you want...I'm done here.
Thanks for playing.
HeritageFleet1
I must agree that my desire for accuracy does increase as the price of the model increases.
Sheldon, I must agree that I too might be miffed about dome locations on C&O Berks--however--as has been pointed out elsewhere, it is much more expensive to tool a diecast engine than plastic, as P2K opted to produce. And based upon past experience, getting a separately produced dome to fit flush on a separate diecast boiler would be a manufacturing challenge.
All I'm saying is that at some point the manufacturer's have to settle on doing some items that in their opinion are "close enough" because they need to make money.
So far as I'm aware--if you want every single freight car to be photo-documented correct--then one must consider Kadee. Other than their Christmas and other special edition Kadee roadname cars, all the regular production freight cars are photo-documented correct--with correct doors, sills, ends, etc. Indeed, they are correct at Exactrail's price point, too. However, the volume of different cars and roadnames is not there at any one time with Kadee.
Respectfully submitted-
John
UP 4-12-2 I must agree that my desire for accuracy does increase as the price of the model increases. Sheldon, I must agree that I too might be miffed about dome locations on C&O Berks--however--as has been pointed out elsewhere, it is much more expensive to tool a diecast engine than plastic, as P2K opted to produce. And based upon past experience, getting a separately produced dome to fit flush on a separate diecast boiler would be a manufacturing challenge.
First, not my quote at the top.
Second, I understand about die cast metal, however other than making the raw boiler out of it and adding plastic or brass details, I see no adavantage to it. As I have said before, I like fine scale sized detail, not crude over sized cast metal detail.
The Bachmann Spectrum USRA heavy Mountian is the perfect example of how to build a well detailed steam loco with a cast metal boiler - take a look at one. The boiler is metal, but all the apllied parts are plastic. These locos have good weight and are EXCELENT runners and pullers. AND, they built a number of different prototypes just by changing the plastic parts.
Again, I'm not miffed, just not buying - anything with over thick cast on runnng boards, MAJOR featrues incorrect, or electronics I don't need/want - especailly at $400 a pop.
As for the various Berkshires on the market, I'm not buying the Proto versions either. It's a nice model, but again, price, availablity, ease of disassembly, poor pulling power of earlier versions have all lead me to purchase the Bachmann model and do a little work to them - which for me is a fun part of the hobby - building things. And they only cost $100.00 each.
I'm not a rivet counter by any means, just the opposite in many ways. It was the OP of this thread who is upset about the Exactrail boxcar door.
Me? I run Athearn Buebox or RTR right next to my carefully assembled resin kits, Branchline kits, and Intermountain kits. My passenger cars are mostly Athearn and ConCor shorties, but some are Branchline kits. For me it is about creating an overall feel to the scene, not obsessing about each model.
But I do think major details should be correct. And again, I don't really care, I just won't buy the stuff. And I do my own research or I don't complain.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'M CERTAIN: "As I have said before, I like fine scale sized detail, not crude over sized cast metal detail..."
I'M CERTAIN: "As I have said before, I like fine scale sized detail, not crude over sized cast metal detail..."
ON THE OTHER HAND: "I'm not a rivet counter by any means, just the opposite in many ways."
HOWEVER: "...anything with over thick cast on running boards, MAJOR featrues incorrect..."
BUT, THEN AGAIN: "For me it is about creating an overall feel to the scene..."
OF COURSE: "...not obsessing about each model..."
BUT: "... I do think major details should be correct...".
Whewww... Boy... that clears it up for me... ZANEX, Anyone??????
Heritagefleet1 In my original post, I don't recall stating that I required 100% accuracy. I did say- and I paraphrase - that for the price-point that Exactrail places this car, it should not have been offered in a RR paint scheme that isn't even close to protoypical for the CSX model...it is only correct for the Southern Car - and even then, only as delivered. HeritageFleet1
In my original post, I don't recall stating that I required 100% accuracy. I did say- and I paraphrase - that for the price-point that Exactrail places this car, it should not have been offered in a RR paint scheme that isn't even close to protoypical for the CSX model...it is only correct for the Southern Car - and even then, only as delivered.
Hi--I sorta can understand why you would say this. However, the legions of cars already on the market--granted some were tooled a few years ago--at the more than $20 price point--have a number of detail discrepancies.
I'm not saying Exactrail should get "a free pass", but consider the legions of Atlas 50' IPD (incentive per diem) boxcars on the market--many of which do have list prices above $20 (though that is much less than some of Exactrail's cars). If you actually research all those cars, you are going to find that the Atlas car as modeled is correct for some roads and "close" for many. Recessed panel arrangements and other details did vary. Oh--and the numerous Athearn boxcars are in the same boat--good luck finding the exact prototypes--but they are close for many.
Should Atlas, Athearn and the others only paint cars for those railroads that are completely correct? If they did, it might reduce their offerings significantly.
If Athearn only painted their tremendously popular 65'-6" mill gondola for the correct railroad, the only roadname offering would be Santa Fe (it is a documented correct Santa Fe car first built in the 1930's, with subsequent orders in the 1940's). All the other roadnames offered are merely "close" in side profile or panel arrangement--or differ in brake systems, etc. Any real student of gondola cars will find the other roadnames and prototypes to be significantly different from the Santa Fe car.
Should Atlas, Athearn and the others now be required to apply the capital "I" for "imaginary" to all those products????
UP 4-12-2Should Atlas, Athearn and the others now be required to apply the capital "I" for "imaginary" to all those products????
Hello...
To answer your question, no... I don't think Athearn or Atlas should be required to do anything regarding the cars they offer.
It is understood that many cars out there are not 100% accurate for every version offered.
Again...I clearly have stated my position: if the CSX version Waffle car had been manufactured with the Youngstown door, I could have lived with the smaller, less conspicuious inaccuracies such as the placement and number of panels and vents...I don't have problem with them. I do have a problem with EXACTrail, offering a $35-40 'Signature' series car in a version for a railorad, that has a MAJOR component like the door, that is neither interchangable, or correct for the car/road offered.
I have managed to locate one or two prototype photos of cars that still retain the P-S door as modeled, for the NS.
In response to your comment that Athearn's Mill Gons are not correct for anything except the ATSF, you're probably right about that - but, Athearn is not billing this car as a Genesis model at $39.95 either.
That's the difference.
When we as modelers have to pay a premium for a freight car that is promoted as being a 'signature' car based on the prototype, that is what it should be - not a near miss.. not a close match...it should be a true representative of the prototype, within reason(there are no absolutes)- tiny detail variations from car to car, are tolarable.
In that regard, the Southern Waffle-side car is a more than excellent example for a 70's era P-S car. It should not be 'passed off' as a 'good-enough' substitute for the other roads...I guess this is where every other modeler out there parts ways with my thinking- and I'm okay with that. If they wanted to do the CSX version, then they should have tooled a P-S car that at least, offers the correct Youngstown doors for the CSX/L&N car...Exactrail would have probably sold even more of these to modelers who have desired this car.
I stated in the original thread on this topic, that I suspect that the tooling for this car, was probably already completed and available a long time ago...I surmise that at the time the tooling had been made, it was planned to be only offered as a Southern car and thus, the body was molded with the door integrated.
Okay... I need another Zanex.
Take care and have fun!
Heritagefleet1 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'M CERTAIN: "As I have said before, I like fine scale sized detail, not crude over sized cast metal detail..." ON THE OTHER HAND: "I'm not a rivet counter by any means, just the opposite in many ways." HOWEVER: "...anything with over thick cast on running boards, MAJOR featrues incorrect..." BUT, THEN AGAIN: "For me it is about creating an overall feel to the scene..." OF COURSE: "...not obsessing about each model..." BUT: "... I do think major details should be correct...". Whewww... Boy... that clears it up for me... ZANEX, Anyone?????? HeritageFleet1
We all find our own "balance" on this issue of detail and accuracy, especially in relation to cost. The MTH Berkshire issue jumps right out at many people because the dome/sand box placement on the various versions of these locos is a very obvious feature.
In the begining of this thread, once I understood the facts, I agreed with you about the Exactrail situation, although its not on my radar since its way out of my era and area of interest - and I don't buy stuff out of my era and area of interest. And, I don't buy many freight cars in that price range no matter what.
To try to be more clear about the MTH Berkshire, or any of their locomotive product I have seen in person (I did get a real good look at the Berk and several other pieces at a train show last weekend), the detail level, execution and overall impression, does not justify the price. Even if you subtract $100 for the "electronics" I don't want, they are still too expensive for how they look.
Just like you think the $30+ boxcar should be right, I think the $400+ loco should be right/better done in the detail department - I don't care how well it runs or how many lights light up or how it sounds.
So, if I want C&O Kanawha's for my C&O modeling, the chioces are:
Various brass made over the years - too expensive, hard to find, some run good, some don't
Proto2000 version - very well detailed, detailed correctly, early ones pulled poorly, had bad driver appearance, expensive, hard to find at good price on DC version, hard to disassemble to add weight
MTH - details all wrong - wrong dome/sand box, wrong tender, wrong pilot & compressor shield, wrong headlight, wrong cab, most of those things easily seen in any casual photo compairison - not rivet counting, too expensive, unwanted sound/smoke/DCS-DCC
Bachmann - lacks pulling power, lacks some details, good scale proportions and correct details, plenty of room to add weight to correct lack of power, easy to disassemble, missing details simple to add, jumpers included for decoder removal, runs good, low price, no premium in price for "electronics".
So for both my C&O needs and my Mikado conversion project, Bachmann was the best choice for me.
If I wanted a Nickel Plate Berkshire, it may or may not be a slightly different story.
One more note - only because it was brought up - I can't imagine having to "figure out" how to pay for my next train purchase or to be "selling off" this or that to buy the next train or to pay other bills. This is an expensive disposable income hobby and I would not be in it beyond my means, so it seems strange to me when you guys share such comments - But I'm not buying any $400 locos either, or buying all sorts of stuff form different eras and roadnames that have nothing in common. Obviously we have dramaticly different "values". I don't buy "toys" I can't afford or don't REALLY want - and I still have all the ones I did buy.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL One more note - only because it was brought up - I can't imagine having to "figure out" how to pay for my next train purchase or to be "selling off" this or that to buy the next train or to pay other bills. This is an expensive disposable income hobby and I would not be in it beyond my means, so it seems strange to me when you guys share such comments - But I'm not buying any $400 locos either, or buying all sorts of stuff form different eras and roadnames that have nothing in common. Obviously we have dramaticly different "values". I don't buy "toys" I can't afford or don't REALLY want - and I still have all the ones I did buy. Sheldon
Well, now that we've beaten the detailing issue quite well, I respectfully offer a response to the above paragraph:
I work for a consulting engineering firm...and these are bad times...No pay raise for 2.5 years. Now, when they promised us a big raise January 1st of this year to make up for the ones we didn't get before, but then did not deliver--well, I have a wife and 2 kids, and all those bills don't get any smaller over time.
My entire "investment" in trains is only a couple thousand dollars at any given time--and perhaps I've had expensive tastes in the past (or rather, was not happy with the quality of some less expensive offerings so opted to "step up" to the more expensive models, thinking you still get what you pay for.)
Bottom line is I'm attempting to sell off some more expensive stuff to raise some needed cash, and replacing it with Trainman stuff.
I don't have a big layout or a big roster--never have.
The pre-order system sucks. I had some nice stuff pre-ordered, that has since been cancelled because there's no way I will be able to pay for it (fortunately it was out in the future). Some items I did pre-order I bought and just resold on Ebay, etc. The last steamer I received (a Paragon2 Y6B) came in on a Friday and was listed on Ebay by Sunday night.
I also had some recent unplanned medical expenses for minor surgeries.
To those who are at the point in life where they have disposable income, and can buy and keep what they buy--well, great for you--but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way for some of us.
I would not recommend a career in highway engineering to my worst enemy--one is too beholding to political whims.
UP 4-12-2The pre-order system sucks. I had some nice stuff pre-ordered, that has since been cancelled because there's no way I will be able to pay for it (fortunately it was out in the future). Some items I did pre-order I bought and just resold on Ebay, etc. The last steamer I received (a Paragon2 Y6B) came in on a Friday and was listed on Ebay by Sunday night.
That is one reason why I never really liked the pre-order system. You never really know what might occur in the meantime. But beyond that is the issue of why are we seeing more of this being used unless the market has shrunk? If that is so--and I suspect that that may actually be the mfg's actual position here then we are going to have to encourage more kit building and the like---good thing Bachmann has not fallen for this all the way----
BTW--John--hope all went well re: the surgeries et al
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't buy "toys" I can't afford or don't REALLY want - and I still have all the ones I did buy. Sheldon
I don't buy "toys" I can't afford or don't REALLY want - and I still have all the ones I did buy.
Hello Sheldon...All... hope everyone is enjoying Independence Day this year - Happy 4th to all.
Sheldon... My previous post was meant to be satire - nothing more...don't take it too seriously.
I just wanted to point out some of the contradiction - you have to admit, it was funny in that context.
Sometimes, I think we can all take our Model Railroading too seriously - I'm probably one of the worst frankly, because I'm a perfectionist about most things...and strive for the best I can to acheive that end - just like so many of you reading this.
It's easy to have a lot of passion about something you really love. I love Model Railroading more than just about any other activity I'm involved in.
I've been very blessed to be able to afford those things that I really desired and am able to add to my roster or layout. Recent times have made it prudent to really evaluate and choose carefully, what I purchase and if I feel the necessity to sell off an item to obtain another, it'll be because I have no further use of that item or it will be to replace it with something better or improved.
Another poster just wrote about how current economic times have hampered his plans and how he is dealing with the delema... He's just being sensible and he's smart for doing it.
We're all going to have to face facts on the future of the cost of Model Railroading. When brass locomotives hit the $600 diesel and $1500 steam range - I was done with that.
Now, the best offerings in Diecast and plastic are creeping towards $500 mark...Some of us will continue to buy - some will not.
It all comes down to what that item is worth to the buyer, in terms of satisfaction and enjoyment, as to weather you pay a $100 or a $1000.
There are many things that I'll be living without and sleeping all the better knowing it.
Heritagefleet1It all comes down to what that item is worth to the buyer, in terms of satisfaction and enjoyment, as to weather you pay a $100 or a $1000.
This is how it is to me. I'd love to have one of the SOU waffle boxcars. I don't really care about the right or wrong door or trucks or whatever. Maybe I will someday. Maybe not. But the main reason I wish I could track one down is that a few weeks ago I took the Capitol Limited to DC and saw a whole mess of them in yards in PA and MD. Sure would like to have one of them as a reminder of that.
Heritagefleet1Hello Sheldon...All... hope everyone is enjoying Independence Day this year - Happy 4th to all.
Thank you, and same to you. My 4th has been quiet and that's how I like all holidays.
I was not offended, and did see the humor, and also thought it was a good time to be a little more clear on those points that may have seemed in conflict with each other.
I too am a very particular and quality minded person, but have also long understood the concept of deminishing return as it relates to the quality of manufactured goods.
In any area of life, I am not likely to give up previous gains to replace them with some "new" idea or thing. Example - the convenience of an Ipod does justify the loss of sound quality when compaired to CD's or vinyl. I don't own or need an Ipod for any reason. But I still own every piece of vinyl, mostly in mint condition, only played on my top notch equipment, that I have ever purchased, since the first one at age 14 - I'm 53.
In model railroading, which I have been doing since 1967, I learned early where my interests are, and are not. After the early days of learning and experimenting, I set a course, one I have kept to.
So, I have virtually never bought a model, played with it a while, then became bored, or changed themes/eras/prototypes to then have any reason to get rid of it.
I am very conservative in my spending habits in all areas of life.
This is very true - I agree - and nothing about a MTH Berkshire is worth $400 to me. In fact, I've never paid $400 for a loco - I think my top piece is a Rivarossi Allegheny at about $325.
It's just like our ongoing discussion of onboard sound - I'm sorry, but for me it's just way past the point of deminishing return to pay so much ($75-$100 per loco) for such poor sound.
And, it is one of the factors driving prices too high for many modelers.
I would much rather have the 120 locos I have and have my large layout and be able to operate my operational plan, than to a few "high end" pieces.
Not planning to ever "sell off" anything, it's bad money management.
Bdewoody My 2cents. If a company is going to use a name like "Exact Rail" and advertise that theirs are the most accurate models on the market and also charge a fairly high price then they should get things right including doors and numbering. otherwise why not just take old bluebox kits and use them.
My 2cents.
If a company is going to use a name like "Exact Rail" and advertise that theirs are the most accurate models on the market and also charge a fairly high price then they should get things right including doors and numbering. otherwise why not just take old bluebox kits and use them.
This is what I wrote way back on page 3 of this thread. After reading everything since I still think that it boils down to what image the manufacturer projects. With a name like EXACTRAIL and high prices I would have expected a car that no matter which railroad it was painted for, would be as accurate as reasonably possible. And since molding a boxcar with separate doors is VERY EASY as indicated by all the blue box athearn boxcars and branchline kits I have built Exactrail should take some heat for this innaccuracy.
I guess my whole "challenge" with this thread is that I never perceived Exactrail claiming their models to be any better or more "exact" than anyone else.
Go to BLI's website--they very boldly claim theirs are the best--and the kool-aid drinkers on their forum believe it, too--to their own detriment in some cases.
Go to MTH's website--they claim to be the best.
So to me, I do not now and have not in the past thought Exactrail's stuff to be any better or "more accurate" than anyone else's. The rest is just marketing and hype, period.
That's why I've questioned what the big deal was. At the end of the day most of the better manufacturers are making similar claims (to my eyes and ears). Perhaps it's just unfortunate they chose the name Exactrail--people are making too much of the name.
I am able to say the assembly quality of most of the Exactrail stuff I have seen appears to be better than the average of their competitors.
UP 4-12-2 I guess my whole "challenge" with this thread is that I never perceived Exactrail claiming their models to be any better or more "exact" than anyone else. Go to BLI's website--they very boldly claim theirs are the best--and the kool-aid drinkers on their forum believe it, too--to their own detriment in some cases. Go to MTH's website--they claim to be the best. So to me, I do not now and have not in the past thought Exactrail's stuff to be any better or "more accurate" than anyone else's. The rest is just marketing and hype, period. That's why I've questioned what the big deal was. At the end of the day most of the better manufacturers are making similar claims (to my eyes and ears). Perhaps it's just unfortunate they chose the name Exactrail--people are making too much of the name. I am able to say the assembly quality of most of the Exactrail stuff I have seen appears to be better than the average of their competitors. John
Well--the ads are slick, and quite convincing.
As for me, I've had past disappointments with the quality and/or accuracy of at least some of the other manufacturers--so I'm more than willing to give Exactrail a chance.
Bdewoody If a company is going to use a name like "Exact Rail" ...
If a company is going to use a name like "Exact Rail" ...
A lot of people really get hung up on this whole name thing. Why is no one getting out the tar and feathers for that other company to so audaciously name themselves with such a lofty name?
AccuRail anyone?
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Heritagefleet1 It is understood that many cars out there are not 100% accurate for every version offered. Again...I clearly have stated my position: if the CSX version Waffle car had been manufactured with the Youngstown door, I could have lived with the smaller, less conspicuious inaccuracies such as the placement and number of panels and vents...I don't have problem with them. I do have a problem with EXACTrail, offering a $35-40 'Signature' series car in a version for a railorad, that has a MAJOR component like the door, that is neither interchangable, or correct for the car/road offered.
Except the car is not a signature series for SCL/CSX, but for Southern. It's accurate for an as-delivered Southern car, which is what it's meant to be. It's simply offered in a CSX scheme as well since it's close. But it's a Southern car, not CSX.
Answer this. Do they sell it for less in the CSX or NS paint scheme? Also at first I did expect accurail to have better more accurate products.
I buy a lot of low priced less than accurate rolling stock and have no problem with it. But on the other hand if I pay a premium price for a product from a company that claims to aspire to a higher level of accuracy then of course I am disappointed when I find a major discrepency with something a prominent as a door
And BTW the CSX car is listed as being in their "Signature Series". I just checked.
Bdewoody Answer this. Do they sell it for less in the CSX or NS paint scheme? Also at first I did expect accurail to have better more accurate products.
Does any other manufacturer discount for the incorrect paint schemes on any cars?
You my friend are missing my point entirely. They bill themselves as being above the rest.
cv_acrExcept the car is not a signature series for SCL/CSX, but for Southern
You're absolutely correct in stating the car lives up to the 'Signature' status for the Southern Railway 'as delivered' car. That's why I don't think that the CSX or any of the other roads should have been offered for this car.
Whatever Exactrails' reason was, this car does not live up to the 'integrity' that is supposed to be the benchmark for the 'Signature' series car.
Athearn would not offer a Genesis car that was not based on a true prototype, in accuracy, or detail. They may however, offer it in a R-T-R version, in roads that did not have that exact car or had a differnet phase of car that was close - at a relatively lower cost.
if I was modeling a pike in the 70's, I'd have bought every road # offered as they are great looking cars that are accurate for that prototype and era.
If Exactrail re-runs this car with updated tooling for the door, I'll buy them.
I'm not holding my breath nor will I give up the hobby if they never materialize.
Bdewoody You my friend are missing my point entirely. They bill themselves as being above the rest.
Yes, they ALL do that---
Look, if it is all the same to you I'd rather go with at least an attempt at being prototypically correct than a complete make belief car.
As if these cars were fixed and determined for all time to be in such and such a shape, as in just out of the mfg's shop, never to have been touched by human hands---sheeesh---I've seen boxcars up here that had non correct doors in incorrect colours that were CSX cars---