I guess it is better overall that hobbyist that prefer to stay away from beginner or novice forums. That way people can get into the hobby and advance without being looked down at or talked down too. What would be a good thing for the hobby is if more experienced people hung their hat up now and then and come into forums like this to pass on some of their knowledge.
Springfield PA
Let's not forget this forum is called "General Discussion", so basically anything goes here. The big difference between this forum and ones like rr line forums, kitforums, diesel detailer, etc, is they don't have a big discussion format. There modelers either post questions or post their work. Lots of structures,kitbashes,layouts, scenery, every kind of advice by folks that have been building for a while. Most of those sites are sub-divided into specific sections. This is model trains we're talking about here, nothing too cerebral. mike h.
When talking about the forum in this thread I believe all have been referring to this website and not just the General discussion threads. At least I have been.
I'm just talking about the MRR forums, not the web site. Most talk seems to occur here. mike h.
Well, I see this thread goes on and on and on and no one has had a divine revelation to solve all the problems presented in this 5th part. Since I got distracted by the thread and quit looking at the sermon for tomorrow, I will try once again to express my feelings about the hobby, advanced, novice, dummy or whatever label you choose.
First, I have been in the hobby longer than most of the people who visit here. I am 73, still very active, and had my first model railroad (well my dad did) when I was six months old. From that point, I shared the scale O gauge, which was the gauge in those days, with my dad, who was a railroad engineer, and could do or make about anything there was. I remember the greats like Frank Ellison's Delta lines, and such.
After graduating from seminary in 1959 I moved to Kansas to pastor a church, and started in earnest on HO which was pretty crude then. I had dabbled in it all through seminary as the O gauge layout was gone.
I have built a total of 5 layouts, the first the customary 4 by 8 ft plywood sheet with the chasum around the circle trains. That was not satisfying to me. After settling in Topeka KS, I built a larger HO, then another larger HO. At the time I was also serving a small church and working for Santa Fe in the newly formed DP department as a programmer/analyst. I jumped to a new church and a new computer job in Kansas City in 1970. I built two more HO layouts, then in 1983 started the layout I have now, which was partly built on the bones a previous freelanced layout called the Mojave Western. My Santa Fe in Oklahoma has existed since 1983 then. I earned my MMR in 1988 through my active participation in the NMRA. I continue to improve things on the Santa Fe today at age 73.
Now, I learned a lot of new skills in all those years, I learned to love proto operation over any other part of the hobby, but I still lay my track, build most of my switches, detail equipment, build structures, either kit or scratch built, and on and on. But still my love is operations. So I do not consider myself an expert in all phases, and I challenge you to show me anyone living who is an expert in all phases. What we should be doing is learning, experimenting, trying out so we can learn more but no one will achieve that in all catagories. I am weak in wiring and I don't mind asking for help. I no longer enjoy painting and decalling and adding wire grabs, too hard with arthritis in my fingers. So I ask for help when needed. I don't scratchbuild any more except for a track switch here and there, but I have lately been buying ready built track work when I make a change.
As far as I can tell, those who claim to be experts in all phases and all things model railroady are liars or hypocrites. Other MMR's I know, and there are several in the Mid Continent Region where I live, are humble about their abilities and they don't shrill out to the world that they know it all.
I enjoy visiting this website, I laugh at some posts, turn up my nose at others, but I always try to help if someone is asking about something I know, or needs help, but I refuse to call my self superior in any way to any other model railroader, unlike some I see here who post. When we die, the good Lord will sort us out, and how much we know about model railroading and associated skills won't count for anything. But how we treat others will mean much. And yes, I do visit the "advanced" forums also, and find some very interesting characters there.
Bob
Bob,
I am inclined to say "Amen" - if it does not hurt your feelings. You have said all there is to say! This forum is alive and has a good mix of beginners, advanced and pros participating in it. Like you, I enjoy visiting it, asking questions, read the many answers, chuckle at those with a good humor, and now and then bat an eyebrow at those I don´t concur with.
I´d say it´s time to move on!
pastorbob When we die, the good Lord will sort us out, and how much we know about model railroading and associated skills won't count for anything. Bob
Oh yes it does..... It determines if we get to work on his layout or not. And we know he has a whopper.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
markpierceMaybe it's time to break out the Tea at the Empress tin (seems like I paid more for the can than the 10 tea bags it contains) so I can move on to "expert." http://www.fairmont.com/empress/GuestServices/Restaurants/AfternoonTea.htm Mark
Maybe it's time to break out the Tea at the Empress tin (seems like I paid more for the can than the 10 tea bags it contains) so I can move on to "expert." http://www.fairmont.com/empress/GuestServices/Restaurants/AfternoonTea.htm
Mark
Mark, did you stop at the gift shop on the way out and buy that can of fresh, clean "B.C. Air". Only $10.00 don't ya know. Open that up in the train room and you'll feel like your steaming through the Canadian Rockies.
CNJ831...serious modeling" and "miscellaneous
Then, the others must be the miscellany of the hobby, dilettantes who don't know how to have the serious guys' fun, or who have far too much of their own kind. They would go to that other place.
If we were to embark on a trial to attempt to draw in members from both camps, and at the same time not driving too many of those who like what they experience here to leave, we'll have to be very careful about our use of terms...they can really get under a person's skin.
It may be far more useful to use titles like...simply "modelling", except spelled the way you folks do it, and 'freelance". With a few orienting words that ostensibly helps people to get to the right one, or the best one, for their needs, we would perhaps have more posts here. There would be those able and willing to post in the 'modelling' forum with the more advanced and fidelity-oriented scale problems we face, and achievements shared in picture form, say, while those who prefer to play with their trains in a more fanciful or creative way will have their venue offering the same choices. And nothing would preclude any of those who preferentially visit one from participating in the other.
I hope I have communicated that I like the idea in principle, but I could not agree to the titles that you propose. Even so, if and when we reach a consensus as a non-employee body of users, we'd have to seek the agreement and support of our hosts. The worst they could say is no.
-Crandell
First, Mark, I haven't visited this thread in several days, and I missed your post with the link. I am sorry I didn't acknowledge it sooner. Wife and I have taken in afternoon tea at the Empress a number of times, and we always enjoyed it. It is costly! But it is an unforgettable experience.
Brent, I haven't seen one of those cans of BC air, but any time you are in Victoria, where the Empress is, be sure to bottle some of the hot air emanating from the Parliament buildings just around the block. It's supposed to keep you warm in your sleeping bag when you next sleep under the stars.
Caned air brings back Navy memories. We had a guy once bottle some air once. After a month he opened it to see if it differed from our atmosphere. I can say it was kind of musty and a little foul
selector Mark, I haven't visited this thread in several days, and I missed your post with the link. I am sorry I didn't acknowledge it sooner. Wife and I have taken in afternoon tea at the Empress a number of times, and we always enjoyed it. It is costly! But it is an unforgettable experience.
Mark, I haven't visited this thread in several days, and I missed your post with the link. I am sorry I didn't acknowledge it sooner. Wife and I have taken in afternoon tea at the Empress a number of times, and we always enjoyed it. It is costly! But it is an unforgettable experience.
Placing vegetation on structures can be an effective method of hiding modeling flaws.
markpiercePlacing vegetation on structures can be an effective method of hiding modeling flaws. Mark
Ah yes. A good idea, and a fine example of a slight variant in colour of the green between the right and left side of the building.
The right side probably thinks it's growing in the tropics because of all the hot air coming from the Parliament Building off to the right.. That's how they heat this Grand Old Lady ya know.
Only a matter of time before a new groundskeeper spreads weed and feed on the lawn near the wall
selector I hope I have communicated that I like the idea in principle, but I could not agree to the titles that you propose. Even so, if and when we reach a consensus as a non-employee body of users, we'd have to seek the agreement and support of our hosts. The worst they could say is no.
Time to synchronize!
(Another example of soldiers wearing skirts. The Scots can't have all the fun!))
markpierce (Another example of soldiers wearing skirts. The Scots can't have all the fun!)) Mark
My wife says "these guys wear three tassels each".I only see two. Where's the third?
To complement Mark's picture, and to preserve the Scottish connection, here is a photo showing Honorable Regimental Sergeant Major Sir Nils Olav (at lower left) inspecting a detachment from His (Norwegian) Majesty the King's Guards at Edinburgh Zoo, Scotland, August 15th 2008.
And yes - it is totally off topic ...
Grin, Stein
BATMAN My wife says "these guys wear three tassels each".I only see two. Where's the third?
Well, I too only see a tassel behind each knee, for two tassels each soldier. But don't overlook the "puff balls" on the front-top of each boot.
selector CNJ831...serious modeling" and "miscellaneous I think this could work, John,or it seems to be worth a trial at face value, but we would have to work at the titles. "Serious modelling" means to me that there are serious guys out there, who frown and look intense and troubled as they go about building their serious train empires. They have serious problems to solve and serious discussions. I suppose that description would appeal to some, but not to many. I hope I have communicated that I like the idea in principle, but I could not agree to the titles that you propose. Even so, if and when we reach a consensus as a non-employee body of users, we'd have to seek the agreement and support of our hosts. The worst they could say is no. -Crandell
Crandell, I wouldn't care if the two categories were termed Smurfs and non-Smurfs, what would matter is the content and control enough over it to keep the subject matter reasonably appropriate to each venue.
Obviously, such a re-organization of the current General Discussion forum could not possibly be as simplistic as "serious modeling" and "miscellaneous". Rather, there would have to be more specific subheadings under the two distinct major categories, one major section catering to posts associated with say advanced scratchbuilding, the detailed scenery people, equipment builders, experienced model painters/weathers, operations and perhaps model photography, with posts from those wishing to share presentations/lead discussions on accepted techniques and offering advanced instructional projects.
Under the umbrella of the second category might come all the various more beginner-level/introductory subjects of interest, including layout concepts, first time scenery, the logical purchase of equipment, discussions of the latest RTR locos and rolling stock, and the basic questions of who/where to buy from, etc. Since you get around the various forums, just as I do, you'll understand the sort of subheadings breakdown that functions well on some of the better advanced forums, as well as those forums dedicated more to the beginners.
I fully believe a major re-working of this site's approach to addressing both extremes of our hobby would be highly beneficial and instructional for all involved and in line with MR's current content approach in the magazine. At the same time, I also certainly understand the volume of effort that would be necessary to accomplish such a goal and I wouldn't be adverse to offering any possible assistance I might be able to render in that effort.
CNJ831
CNJ831selector CNJ831...serious modeling" and "miscellaneous I think this could work, John,or it seems to be worth a trial at face value, but we would have to work at the titles. "Serious modelling" means to me that there are serious guys out there, who frown and look intense and troubled as they go about building their serious train empires. They have serious problems to solve and serious discussions. I suppose that description would appeal to some, but not to many. I hope I have communicated that I like the idea in principle, but I could not agree to the titles that you propose. Even so, if and when we reach a consensus as a non-employee body of users, we'd have to seek the agreement and support of our hosts. The worst they could say is no. -Crandell Crandell, I wouldn't care if the two categories were termed Smurfs and non-Smurfs, what would matter is the content and control enough over it to keep the subject matter reasonably appropriate to each venue. ...CNJ831
How about "Unfriendly" and "Friendly".
I find it fascinating how people want to take something that works (this friendly site) and turn it into something that doesn't work (those serious sites).
My question is: If those other sites are so great how come you hang out here so much?
We've got a good thing going here - let's not screw it up by "fixing" it.
As usual just my
Enjoy
Paul
I can really only be sure that I know that I'm not a beginner because I can present good work with beleivable weathering and no glaring mistakes. I have a good memory for detail in the real world that I can transfer to my models. I can get myself out of trouble if I make a mistake. I can kit bash, but scratch building makes me cringe when I think about it. I can't and nor would I ever attempt, scratch building a brass locomotive - this type of activity is the domain of the advanced modeler. I believe that my modeling skill lays between beginner and advanced - probably about half way between actually.
Bruce
I resent the terms serious and misc. And I resent the idea of segmenting these forums anymore than they are already. I like to read the variety of posts in each of the three major topics, and don't want to have to bounce around through more breakdowns than the forum has now. I also read the garden railroader forums, and that is quite enough. Fragment things more and I am through with this whole forum (good news to some I am sure) and it means when my subscriptions run out, I will use the money I was spending for a less serious cause.
I remember when "Model Railroading is fun", but it isn't much anymore with all the snobbery, and "I'm a better modeler than you are" and "I am more serious about the hobby than you are" and you are a "terrible person to buy something you aren't required to glue, paint, assemble, decal, detail, and go out and cut down a tree and make your own wood".
Now I have to go to confession tomorrow and Baptists don't do that much.
Bravo, Bob!
A word to our host - please keep this forum the way it is - a cheerful mix of people from all walks of life and all levels of skill.
It is a most lively forum - no need to change or fragment it!
My 2c worth,
I personally have just started a Post Graduate course at University. So time is of the essence, Hence I looked at page 1, 5 & 6.
I don't think there is some great decline in the forum or even in the hobby, people are just busy. One way to get a better response is to make the topic more decriptive. There are a lot of ambiguous topics out there that make you read them to work out what it is all about.
So for now I don't have time for that, sorry! Lets get to the point ladies & gentlemen. Also there has been some flaming going on, especially with WPF not so much recently, so I am guessing there are a few who just can't be bothered any more.
I don't mean to offend anyone just being direct. Gotta go!
Nigel
pastorbobNow I have to go to confession tomorrow and Baptists don't do that much
Neither do we Presbyterians!!
I am probably one of those guys who have asked some pretty basic questions in this particular fourm. I think my first post was something about how do you make the mortar lines in brick stand out. Now I am sure that many people rolled their eyes at that one, but at the same time I received many helpful responses. I tried a few of them and settled on one that worked for me. Since then - and this was well over a year ago - I have taken to a different method which was, interestingly enough, not one that was a response to my post.
My point is that, yes, there are some pretty basic questions being asked here but thankfully there are people willing to share their expertise/advice without becoming too 'boorish' or rude. Since returning to the hobby and reading on a somewhat selective basis many of the posts in the General Discussion area, I have learned quite a lot. So for me this portion of the forum has been very helpful
But there is another side to this forum that I don't think anyone has addressed yet. It has to do with the topics that generate a great deal of interest and thoughtful discussion. This particular series of posts has been one of them and the other one that comes to mind is the Philosophy Friday question. I always look forward to reading that because the originator obviously puts in a great deal of thought into the original question and it always seems to generate discussion and opinions. As I read it, and sometimes write in it, it does really cause me to think about where I am in the hobby and what could I be doing better.
So I agree with those who say to leave this area as it is. It touches such a wide variety of people and topics and it has served me well. As to the earlier discussion about tea, I and a wine snob myself and wouldn't be caught dead sipping a glass of fine Bordeaux while ballasting track.....
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
pastorbob I resent the terms serious and misc. And I resent the idea of segmenting these forums anymore than they are already. I like to read the variety of posts in each of the three major topics, and don't want to have to bounce around through more breakdowns than the forum has now. I also read the garden railroader forums, and that is quite enough. Fragment things more and I am through with this whole forum (good news to some I am sure) and it means when my subscriptions run out, I will use the money I was spending for a less serious cause. I remember when "Model Railroading is fun", but it isn't much anymore with all the snobbery, and "I'm a better modeler than you are" and "I am more serious about the hobby than you are" and you are a "terrible person to buy something you aren't required to glue, paint, assemble, decal, detail, and go out and cut down a tree and make your own wood". Now I have to go to confession tomorrow and Baptists don't do that much. Bob
Bob,I agree with your assessments..Oddly I find more snobbery,I'm a better modeler than you are" and "I am more serious about the hobby than you are" etc on line then I do in the real world..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEI remember when "Model Railroading is fun", but it isn't much anymore with all the snobbery, and "I'm a better modeler than you are" and "I am more serious about the hobby than you are" and you are a "terrible person to buy something you aren't required to glue, paint, assemble, decal, detail, and go out and cut down a tree and make your own wood".
I don't know about this at all. Why should the egohead be allowed to rule how one perceives the forum changes --if they ever do occur? I, quite frankly, am getting tired of the egohead being able to dictate policy everytime something changes. The whole thing ends up centering around some weak willed person's ego instead of whether the forum change makes it easier for us'uns to do what we want.
I say stuff the attitude and let those who may know about things more have a bit more bang for their buck. Not every single one of those guys have that problem----so why should they put up with it?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I too like the current format of the forums here. It would be nice to have it broken down a little more such as locomotives, rolling stock, and maybe a couple of more but absolutely nothing that would potentially intimidate a newer member. This hobby needs more people and would only suffer if new modelers gave up in frustration because of elite attitudes towards their "basic" questions.
I often see that same attitude in my favorite LHS. The owner is great and very courteous, but several of the people who frequent the place have their tight little circle and wont even acknowledge others. Listening to them sometimes you would think they work for NASA with the Space Shuttle. I often have had to squeeze past them clogging up the aisle while trying to get to the counter with product I'm actually buying. Owners usually do recognize Paying customers. I guess I went off topic but the snobbery has actually gotten worse IMO.