Reflecting on this thread and my earlier comments, I would add the following. I am a member of the Mid Continent Region, and the Turkey Creek Div. which is the greater Kansas City area and a little beyond. I don't get to as many meetings as I used to but I participate in the meets, have done clinics in the past, try to attend the region meets, and was active and on the committee when the national was held in KC in 1998 and in 1984. I have also attended meets in other divisions, regions and a few nationals. I have not EVER seen anyone barred from entry because they were not a member. My layout has often been on the tour beat when any NMRA and Santa Fe Modelers Meet is in the KC area. Quite frankly, I have meet a lot of modelers in both organizations who have become good friends.
Bottom line though is I have never seen any activity or action of the NMRA that discriminates against non members. They are often in my basement and at other functions. They may be asked to pay a little higher amount for admission, but, I can think of a lot of other activities I participate in that charges a little more for a non member than for a member. Insurance? I carry my own on my railroad and property, even though the NMRA might do the same, I rely on my own insurance more.
Still comes back to "no one is holding a gun to your head. You can join or not join. Your choice.
Bob
For God's sake it is only $60.00 a year rounded up. $5.00 whole dollars a month!!!!! People spend more on toilet paper.
Notreally the best of analogies since toilet paper is kind of a necessity.
A better analogy would be some kind of foo-foo coffee at Starbucks, which can cost you over $5/DAY if you have more than 1 a day.
You can do without the Starbucks and no one can say you nay. But eliminate the T.P. and your wife or mother (and perhaps even some friends/colleagues) may hurl a variety of choice epithets towards your last known coordinates.
Hmmm. Maybe the NMRA should sell lattes on the side.
Either that, or print "Scale Rails" on the same type of paper that Sears printed its catalogs on way back in the 19th Century.
Andre
No, what I don't like is the recent change in a long-standing tradition of having the monthly meetings open to ANYONE in order to attract new people to the hobby - after all, that is the ostensible mission of the NMRA. It appears to have become a self-serving organization only interested in its own concerns.
You use the word "entitled." That isn't my feeling. What I resent is NMRA policy changing a long-standing tradition AND one of its original goals because an insuarnce company doesn't want to insure people attending monthly meetings in a public building. Seems like someone is overreaching their bounds.
Apparently, there will be a change in this policy, wherein non-members WILL be barred if they exceed three meetings without becoming a member. A notice from the Division Superintendent was read to us at last month's meeting.
MRRSparky Apparently, there will be a change in this policy, wherein non-members WILL be barred if they exceed three meetings without becoming a member. A notice from the Division Superintendent was read to us at last month's meeting.
Sorry, I haven't heard that at our meetings yet. I will reserve further judgement until I do.
pastorbob MRRSparky Apparently, there will be a change in this policy, wherein non-members WILL be barred if they exceed three meetings without becoming a member. A notice from the Division Superintendent was read to us at last month's meeting. Sorry, I haven't heard that at our meetings yet. I will reserve further judgement until I do. Bob
Even if it was true it would be no more than what some other organizations have done in the past.
I'm kind of curious however. Was anything like the above put in print? I'd think that it would show up in the by-laws wouldn't it?
Until such time as anything shows up in black and white this will only be seen as a rumour---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I used to be on the executive committee of the Winnipeg Chapter of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada. We encouraged members of the public to turn up and take in the meetings, and I don't recall us ever keeping tabs on the number of times any one person attended. (Doesn't mean that someone wasn't responsible for doing that...I just have no recollection that it was a requirement, either by rules or by underwriters). We probably would not have turned a newcomer away from a more formal subscribed event meant for members, at least, not the first time. Might have been a cultural thing, but the people on the executive were fairly warm and welcoming. Yet, if the same person had been seen 'crashing' several such functions over a couple of years, one of us would have taken him/her aside and pointed out that the rest in attendance were subsidizing his pleasure. Some might not have minded, some might have minded, but the point is that everyone who was paying ought to have been afforded an opportunity to say so. When people attend meetings and decline to pay for the true costs of the meeting (time, research, rental of facilities, insurances, etc.), the membership should have a say in it. AFAIAC, continuing to skate down that pond leads eventually to some pretty thin ice.
-Crandell
Maybe, just maybe, they got tired of you constantly and regularly showing up at the monthly meetings without you being a dues paying member. Maybe the insurance issue is being used as an excuse, or a front, instead simply telling you straight out to your face that they're tired of you attending meetings and getting the benfits of membership without being a member. The insurance is simply their cover and a them trying to be polite. Most people after attending an organization's meetings three times know whether they want to join or not.
I'd say entitled is absolutely the right choice of words. You feel ENTITLED to attend their meetings because they said they're open to the public. Because they've traditionally allowed you attend meetings after you failed to renew your membership, you feel ENTITLED to continue attending meetings.
Any organization is self-serving to some extent. If it wasn't it would cease to exist after people have finished consuming the services it offered and chose not to replenish its resources.
Stop crying. Obviously you get something of 'value' out of attending the meetings otherwise you wouldn't go. Either the value you receive is worth the annual membership dues, ot if you decide it isn't the leave and don't let the door hit your backside on the way out. As I said before, they're doing the right thing by asking you to either join of stop coming.
And you waited this long to say something about it?
If it was this important why did you wait to say anything about it?
BTW--no one up here that I know who is a member has heard anything about this-----is this more of a trial balloon than a fact---
I can check with our Division Superintendent, but I don't believe this is a policy from National HQ. It sounds like a decision that the local Division Bd of Trustees made because either someone complained to them or they decided on their own that ol' Sparky here was abusing their hospitality of letting non-members attend their meetings. An action they rightly should take. Sounds like he overstayed his welcome and they decided to take action.
MRRSparkyNo, what I don't like is the recent change in a long-standing tradition of having the monthly meetings open to ANYONE in order to attract new people to the hobby - after all, that is the ostensible mission of the NMRA. It appears to have become a self-serving organization only interested in its own concerns.
I think we've gotten about as far with this thread as is constructively possible.
Scott, perhaps it would be best for you to approach your NMRA division superintendent so that you can express - whether verbally or in written form - your concerns about this decision directly to him (or them) rather than continuing to air them out here. It would also be good to find out if this will ultimately become a wide-sweeping decision made by the NMRA, or whether it remains a local one; effecting only the division that Scott has been a member of.
With that said, let's move onto other topics. Thanks.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Update and apology
It has been brought to my attention that the same announcement given at Scott (MRRSparky)'s NMRA meeting last month was also made at a NMRA meeting that CNJ (CNJ831) attended back in September. CNJ mentioned this briefly in the 2nd to last paragraph of his post on pg. 1 but I, inadvertently, missed it.
I based the closing of this thread on two things:
Had it been only point 1, I probably would have just inserted a passing comment in the thread about keeping the conversation "more gentile" and then let the thread continue. However, I honestly thought the discussion of the topic had reached a dead end - i.e. until this edict from the NMRA could be confirmed by others. Further discussion, in my mind, was moot and would only lead to more "snarkiness". Therefore, I closed the thread. Now having learned that my second conclusion was erroneous, I've decided to open the thread back up under the pretense the conversation about the NMRA's decision stays civil and cordial.
In conclusion, I'm sorry for my error in judgment and for missing the stated confirmation of the NMRA decision in CNJ's post. I'd also like to apologize for the lateness of this correction, as I had wanted to post this yesterday morning but had to deal with some important items needing my attention at home.
So, thank you for your understanding and your patience. Please proceed with the thread.
Regards,
I just want to add two cents, from the perspective of someone who has not been a member or been to any meetings.
When I am investigating a club, to see if I want to join, especially when it's a fair chunk of money to do so, 3 meetings is not enough to decide if it's going to be my cup of tea. I'm not out to try and get something for nothing - I'm looking to find out if it's going to be worth my time and money.
I don't mind paying a small amount for attending a 4 hr workshop or something similar as a nonmember, but it shouldn't be an absurd price, and the amount I paid as a nonmember to get into the event, should go towards membership fees if indeed I decide to join.
OTOH, if after 2-3 visits to an average meeting, I am told that I either have to join or never come again, there had better be some very outstanding reasons for me to join, because I'm going to figure that they are just trying to get my money, and if they didn't cover anything of my interest during those few visits, because it was scheduled for another time - I'm going to be positive that this given club has absolutely nothing to offer me, so I shouldn't waste my money.
Simply put, it's going to drive people away that might have otherwise been able to offer something - IOW it becomes an exclusive club. It seems to me that if the hobby is already having a bit of a difficult time, attracting new blood, that this is counter productive.
Now speaking as someone that has looked at the NMRA, and what it has to offer me, it is already coming up short, as I am working with Z scale, so with this 3 meeting attendance limit issue, I am left wondering why I should even bother attending in the first place?
The NMRA, should be looking for ways to boost attendance, by nonmembers, even if that means that a small fee is charged to nonmembers to the workshops, and if this means that they find an insurance carrier that willing to work with them in boosting attendance, then that is what they need to be doing..
Yea, I know that someone is probably going to take offense at what I said, because I am an outsider that doesn't know what I'm talking about, but no offense is intended, and people need to realize that outsiders are exactly what are needed, if the hobby is going to continue to grow, so they should be looking at the situation from that perspective. Outsiders are not going to find out all about, what the NMRA can offer them from just a couple of meetings, but if they are limited to only a few meetings, then the outsiders are going to go elsewhere.
The NMRA should be doing their best to work with increasing their numbers so that membership costs can go down.
The NMRA offers a 6 month trial membership for $9.95 for prospective new members. You can attend all the meetings etc. while you decide if it's for you.
Enjoy
Paul
I don't think the insurance issue is necessarily a red herring. If someone is injured at an NMRA meeting who is not a member and sued the NMRA, I imagine the NMRA's insurance wouldn't cover the suit, and the NMRA would have to pay out of their own treasury.
dirtyd79 In fairness to the NMRA I do see their point in this. Most clubs are non-profit and while they don't run for profit they still need money coming in to function. If too many people were coming in without paying soon enough the club would be going under since members would start figuring "Well if these people are getting everything for free why should I keep paying?" Then you get what's called the free rider dilemma which happened to a Steven King website years ago. If enough people paid that month it was free for everyone else. The problem is people stopped paying in the hopes of getting in free. So eventually the site went down since not enough people were paying for it.
In fairness to the NMRA I do see their point in this. Most clubs are non-profit and while they don't run for profit they still need money coming in to function. If too many people were coming in without paying soon enough the club would be going under since members would start figuring "Well if these people are getting everything for free why should I keep paying?" Then you get what's called the free rider dilemma which happened to a Steven King website years ago. If enough people paid that month it was free for everyone else. The problem is people stopped paying in the hopes of getting in free. So eventually the site went down since not enough people were paying for it.
I also understand the fairness issue, but at the same time I have to ask, what is it that the members are getting that a nonmember does not.
If it's a matter of finances for a club sponsored activities, I must first look to what it is that is costing so much.
If it is a matter of supplies and bringing in a guest speaker for a model railroading workshop, those things can also be satisfied by charging admission a token fee for members, and actual cost on a per person basis for nonmembers.
If it is really about insurance, is their anyone here that can honestly say that insurance is going to cover the cost, if someone decides to sue?
If' it's to promote the hobby, then how is that money being spent to promote the hobby - and not just on the national or international level, but also on the state and local level.
How is the hobby actually being promoted???
Are they holding shows, designed to bring in new people or are they holding workshops that are oriented towards people who are already in the hobby?
If it's to bring in new people, then how are they going about making it oriented to "new" blood, and in this case members are supporting nonmembers, but that is the purpose of the money spent on promotion of the hobby in the first place.
If it's catered to people already in the hobby, what's the problem with charging a fee with the scale tied to membership, and in that sense members are not supporting nonmembers.
wjstixI don't think the insurance issue is necessarily a red herring. If someone is injured at an NMRA meeting who is not a member and sued the NMRA, I imagine the NMRA's insurance wouldn't cover the suit, and the NMRA would have to pay out of their own treasury.
Not true! It is the NMRA who is insured. If I am doing a soldering clinic, and someone gets accidentally burned and sues me, as an NMRA Member, I am covered. If an NMRA Member gets hurt at an NMRA Open House at a non-members layout, the member can sue the guy who has the layout as the NMRA will not cover it. There is a form that has to signed by any non-member who opens their layout for a tour stating that they understand that they are not covered by the NMRA if there is a problem. I had 3 people join with the $9.95 railpass memberships last spring in order to have insurance for just such an event.
Now, I will again state what I said several pages ago. I have received nothing from the NMRA that says a non-member can only attend 3 events and after that is banned! I am the current Superintendent of an NMRA Division and a voting member of the Region. If this is coming from the National office of the NMRA, How come I don't have any statement on the change from either National or the Region? How come National has invited any and all Model Railroaders whether card carrying members or not to attend the National Convention this Summer at no extra cost if this is such a problem??? You can check it out here: http://www.nmra75.org/
There are several members here who serve at the national level. None of them have confirmed or denied the "new" rule. Again???????????
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
howmusNow, I will again state what I said several pages ago. I have received nothing from the NMRA that says a non-member can only attend 3 events and after that is banned! I am the current Superintendent of an NMRA Division and a voting member of the Region. If this is coming from the National office of the NMRA, How come I don't have any statement on the change from either National or the Region? How come National has invited any and all Model Railroaders whether card carrying members or not to attend the National Convention this Summer at no extra cost if this is such a problem??? You can check it out here: http://www.nmra75.org/
Apparently some comment in the second from the bottom paragraph in CNJ's post made a statement that such was in fact the case-----the problem still is that there has yet to be anything in black and white stating the case is so from the HQ.
And as long as that is the case I'm still going to assume the protocol will be that if you still do not know whether to join---based on attending any meetings AND asking questions of any executive members who are present there as well as other members then maybe you'll need to ask yourself whether you really are interested.
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BTW---at $60/yr this is not a bad price for something that will give you a lot more contact with others who share the same interests---and the scale mag is excellent After all---it is only going to take what amounts to the total of a couple of cups of coffee a month for pete sake-----
howmus Not true! It is the NMRA who is insured. If I am doing a soldering clinic, and someone gets accidentally burned and sues me, as an NMRA Member, I am covered. If an NMRA Member gets hurt at an NMRA Open House at a non-members layout, the member can sue the guy who has the layout as the NMRA will not cover it. There is a form that has to signed by any non-member who opens their layout for a tour stating that they understand that they are not covered by the NMRA if there is a problem. I had 3 people join with the $9.95 railpass memberships last spring in order to have insurance for just such an event. Now, I will again state what I said several pages ago. I have received nothing from the NMRA that says a non-member can only attend 3 events and after that is banned! I am the current Superintendent of an NMRA Division and a voting member of the Region. If this is coming from the National office of the NMRA, How come I don't have any statement on the change from either National or the Region? How come National has invited any and all Model Railroaders whether card carrying members or not to attend the National Convention this Summer at no extra cost if this is such a problem??? You can check it out here: http://www.nmra75.org/ There are several members here who serve at the national level. None of them have confirmed or denied the "new" rule. Again???????????
That's fairly well what I'm getting from
http://www.nmra.org/national/insurance/InsuranceInfoOnWeb080630.pdf
The only thing that I can think of, is that someone is reading this clause:
"It should be noted that in the event of a claim if it is discovered that the NMRA Sponsoring Group (Region, Division, 100% Club, SIG) has members who are not NMRA members, coverage could be jeopardized, particularly for those nonmembers.
They may find themselves bearing personal liability, which would have to be covered by their own insurance."
And reading into it, the part about requireing NMRA membership, or it's simply a case of local groups playing CYA or both.
Greg H. "It should be noted that in the event of a claim if it is discovered that the NMRA Sponsoring Group (Region, Division, 100% Club, SIG) has members who are not NMRA members, coverage could be jeopardized, particularly for those nonmembers. They may find themselves bearing personal liability, which would have to be covered by their own insurance."
That clause would be the kicker to some who may be a little bit Tin Hat-----but---that is why one signs waivers in the first place---and if they are exhibiting as non-members---
Greg H."It should be noted that in the event of a claim if it is discovered that the NMRA Sponsoring Group (Region, Division, 100% Club, SIG) has members who are not NMRA members, coverage could be jeopardized, particularly for those nonmembers. They may find themselves bearing personal liability, which would have to be covered by their own insurance."
It is correct that Regions and Divisions can not have members in and of themselves. The membership is of the National NMRA. We still can have Guests at meets and other activities. My Division just held an "Open Meet" where the public was invited to attend. It was done with the knowledge and blessing of the Region.
I think you are right that some Divisions and Regions are interpreting the clause that way. It is not my understanding that guests cannot attend meets. When we have a meet, non-members pay a higher fee for attending than members do. That keeps the distinction that those attending as guests are indeed not members. That is all my region has required to deal with the clause.
The OP may have been in situation of attending every event year after year, and expecting to get the benefits of membership without paying any dues. BTW the region and the divisions get no funding from National so we have to pay our own way. For me the benefits are many. The magazine that Barry mentioned is indeed worth the cost of membership. So is the friendship of fellow modelers in the organization. The ability to work with and see the work of, and get suggestions from several Master Model Railroaders has been worth many times the cost of joining. How about "Modeling With The Masters" done at many conventions. There is also the very extensive Kalmbach Memorial Library, Clinics by Modelers for Modelers, Slide and Photo Contests, Popular vote Model Contests, Layout Tours and Open houses, The Achievement Program, The Members Aid Program, Heritage and Living Legends Collector Cars, Pike Registry, Regional and National Conventions, and the list goes on....... Of course if people aren't interested they probably shouldn't waste the money joining. (Maybe they can just show up at the things they like and mooch.............)
Greg H.
I will attempt to answer some of your questions based on our own Division
Outside the ScaleRails, the bigggest thing you get is networking, clincis, and the opportunity to organize and help with shows.
Shows cost money, renting location, distributing flyers and advertising. Also the DIvision helps with the groups within, like th HO scale modular and N scale modular folks if they need money for a large project.
The national organization needs funds, as do the regions and divisions. Not sure how this would satisfy all the needs. And you would still need the initial budget for planning, advertising and possible materials.
Beyond my knowldge
The Division gets money and material to advertise in its area. We hit up non associated shows, hobby shops, websites etc.
See above. Also, we (Western Heritage Division) have been asked to setup the past couple years at the Strategic Air and Space Museum over the holidays. It gives them another educational display and a chance for us to talk about our hobby.
Both
The effort is always towards bringing in new people AND strengthening the individual's experience that's already in the hobby.
Its virtually impossible to completely eliminate supporting nonmembers. Guilting works for some, barring works for some, even embarrasment works form time to time. And as others have said, this in not the sole problem of the NMRA. Organizations and clubs across the country are feeling the pinch.
I've been a member for only 3 years, I will continue to support in the future
Ricky Keil
Asst Superintendent, Western Heritage Division
NMRA # 135467 00
Greg H. That's fairly well what I'm getting from http://www.nmra.org/national/insurance/InsuranceInfoOnWeb080630.pdf The only thing that I can think of, is that someone is reading this clause: "It should be noted that in the event of a claim if it is discovered that the NMRA Sponsoring Group (Region, Division, 100% Club, SIG) has members who are not NMRA members, coverage could be jeopardized, particularly for those nonmembers. They may find themselves bearing personal liability, which would have to be covered by their own insurance." And reading into it, the part about requireing NMRA membership, or it's simply a case of local groups playing CYA or both.
You have a couple of things at work here. First, from a legal standpoint, since we are tlaking about insurance and coverage if sued, when is someone a 'member'? Is someone a member only if they pay dues? Or, can someone claim to be or be claimed as a member if they regularly attend an organization's events and are provided the rights and priviledges of membership? Second, according to National bylaws, the be a member of a local division you MUST be a member of the national organization. There is no such thing as only be a division member. One is a subset of the other.
I do recall now something being mentioned at a division meeting a few months ago about insurance coverage and being a 100% member chapter. IIRC, it was mentioned in conjuction with our annual train show and the need for all workers to be members so that there would be no issues with insurance coverage.
I still think the insurance rule as mentioned by the OP is being used by the local division as a bit of a scapegoat. I think their reasoning is something along the lines of, "This guy keeps coming to the meetings even though he isn't a member anymore, what do we do? Let's say there's a 3 meeting rule for visitors and that after that they need to decide to join or not. We'll say it has something to do with insurance coverage and a new rule from HQ so we don't look like the bad person."