Metal Wheelsets vs Plastic Wheelsets

[CP5415]

I'm in the process of switching to metal axle sets as well.
Generally staying with P2K axles & I know that they allow for increased pulling power on my locomotives as I tested 1 Athearn SD40-2 & 20 cars, all with metal wheels & the locomotive barely slowed down going up the 3.5% grades on my layout.
The plastic ones the loco barely pulled 10 cars with the same style on cars with plastic axles on the same grade.

Gordon

[ClinchValleySD40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

Does anyone have recommendations as to metal wheelset best buy sources in Canada or are U.S. sources better buys?

[?]

Kleins for P2K wheels.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

IMO, generally speaking, quality rolling stock should not have to be up graded.
Now I will share with you my Walthers HO Budd Passenger stock sets first run cars.
My Atlas Dash 8-32BW would only pull three cars on level track because of the axle drag so I had to upgrage to IMs if I wanted to get the full consist out of the station.

What a learning experience for a discounted $24.00 car.

Locomotive 3,

Did you find the exact cause of the axle drag? I've heard that there is some drag when the lighting kit is installed, but only that. I plan on purchasing about 10 more Walther's cars (mainly SCL) and would appreciate knowing of potential headaches. [;)]

Thanks!

I've just bought one of the Walther PS C&NW sleepers, along with a lighting kit. The lights don't add any more drag as the pickups are factory fitted - they seem to be of the same type as the Lifelike Proto ones where the pickups are on the axle ends - in this case the metal truck frames are used as the pickups. I noticed in the instructions that Walthers suggest using some suitable oil in the axle bearings, this would probably help. The lighting kits are well worth fitting though it would be nice if they had some circuitry to stop them flickering over turnouts - Hornby have managed lighting with this feature on their new Pullmans.

I've been slowly working towards refitting my stock with P2k wheelsets - so far I've been concentrating on Athearn double stack cars and others that had a pronounced "wobble" before I changed the wheelsets. Unfortunately my LHS has been out of stock of these wheels for a while, so I'll have to mail-order some more.

[twhite]

Converted most of my rolling stock--so far--to P2K and some JayBee. The cars roll better, I can put more of them behind my locomotives--a little Rio Grande PFM Pacific that used to pull three Walthers passenger cars tops can now pull about 7-10 without a helper. And the track stays cleaner--a MUST if you have a garage layout. Plan on converting all of my rolling stock to metal wheels. And I LOVE that clickety-clack over the railjoints.

[AntonioFP45]

Railroading_Brit,

Thanks a lot for answering my question regarding the Walther's cars. I only plan on installing a few lighting kits, mainly observation cars, and diners.

Cheers!

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Mondo trains: "They make my cars sooooo free-rolling that they roll where there is the slightest bit of unlevel spot on my track.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but some people nit pick on 'dimesions' and 'paint striping', so to be no less of a pain, I get to pick a 'nit' here, To wit:

ALL metal wheels will roll like crazy - UNEMCUMBERED. The friction from the Journal SIDEFRAMES on the axle is the deciding factor of how far, and how well. Since metal weigh more than plastic, rolling, metal wheels have inertia going for them. I mention this because it's the reduction of axle friction to journal that does the job. You are welcome to run a test.

QUOTE: I've decided to use Kadees because they are metal, run very well after I use the Micro Mark tool to ream out the journal on my trucks, and they run very clean because I use a brass wire brush in a Dremmel to clean off the factory blackening material from the wheel tread and flange. - Mondo

I have NO criticism of your selections as they work for you. My only comment's are (1) the Kadee's use a plastic axle (as they used to make metal sideframes) and (2)the 'Tool' corrects for an improperly tight fitting plastic journal by enlarging it, and (3)the factory 'blackening' wears off very easily by just 'running'.

In some layouts, its easier to wipe the track with a rag than to individually burnish each wheel with a Dremel tool and some modelers can get identical rolling results simply buying KATO or EB trucks.- or some other combination of polished metal axle with Delrin journal sideframes

[Don Gibson]

RAILROADING BRIT / ANTONIOFP45. Re: Walthers Budd car drag...

QUOTE: I've just bought one of the Walther PS C&NW sleepers, along with a lighting kit. The lights don't add any more drag as the pickups are factory fitted ...- in this case the metal truck frames are used as the pickups. I noticed in the instructions that Walthers suggest using some suitable oil in the axle bearings, this would probably help. The lighting kits are well worth fitting though it would be nice if they had some circuitry to stop them flickering over turnouts

The 'drag' seems to be caused by metal axles into metal journals/side frames for the optional LIGHTING system. Walther's recommended to oil the Journals?

I would recommend a small dab of GRAPHITE (or KD's Grease Em) as it conducts electricity, is a dry lubricant, and wont attract dust..
I would defer to Chuck Walsh on this as he has had more trouble with these cars than I.

REGARDING FLICKER, It's inevitable. Rolling metal wheels on a track are like rubbing an antenna wire on metal. It produces small sparks (static). Since you cannot (entirely) get rid of it, one has to reduce it to the point one doesn't notice it.
TOMAR track wipers help. So does add large amounts (15,000mfd) of Capacitance.
' One LIVES with it, REDUCES it, or installs RICHMOND CONTROLS car lighting.

I'vet tried - and done - all 3. I'm going to try the WALTHERS in the 'Super Chief' Obs and hope for the best. Otherwise i'll put the Richmond circuit in, and light the drumhead and markers along with the interior.($65).

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

RAILROADING BRIT / ANTONIOFP45. Re: Walthers Budd car drag...

QUOTE: I've just bought one of the Walther PS C&NW sleepers, along with a lighting kit. The lights don't add any more drag as the pickups are factory fitted ...- in this case the metal truck frames are used as the pickups. I noticed in the instructions that Walthers suggest using some suitable oil in the axle bearings, this would probably help. The lighting kits are well worth fitting though it would be nice if they had some circuitry to stop them flickering over turnouts

The 'drag' seems to be caused by metal axles into metal journals/side frames for the optional LIGHTING system. Walther's recommended to oil the Journals?

I would recommend a small dab of GRAPHITE (or KD's Grease Em) as it conducts electricity, is a dry lubricant, and wont attract dust..
I would defer to Chuck Walsh on this as he has had more trouble with these cars than I.

REGARDING FLICKER, It's inevitable. Rolling metal wheels on a track are like rubbing an antenna wire on metal. It produces small sparks (static). Since you cannot (entirely) get rid of it, one has to reduce it to the point one doesn't notice it.
TOMAR track wipers help. So does add large amounts (15,000mfd) of Capacitance.
' One LIVES with it, REDUCES it, or installs RICHMOND CONTROLS car lighting.

I'vet tried - and done - all 3. I'm going to try the WALTHERS in the 'Super Chief' Obs and hope for the best. Otherwise i'll put the Richmond circuit in, and light the drumhead and markers along with the interior.($65).

Don, helpful as always!

Adding the graphite is easy and I'll check with a good friend of mine who is an electronics expert about adding a capacitor for the lighting kits. Seems like this would eliminate most of the flicker. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that there is even less flicker when a DCC system is in place.

Thanks!

[mondotrains]

Hi Don,
I appreciate your input regarding the fact that it's the friction between the axles and the journal in the sideframe that determines the rolling qualities of wheelsets. However, I knew that already which is why I chose the Kadees. The Kadees have just enough friction to keep single spotted cars from rolling where my track is not totally level. I had mentioned that my buddies and I have found that the Intermountains, because of their pointed metal axles, have so little friction that the cars roll when we don't want them to.

Considering all the input I received on my thread about metal wheelsets back in April, I think the guys that like Intermountains are probably running "longer" trains and may also have grades on their layouts. Therefore, they NEED the free-rolling characteristic of the Intermountains. I on the other hand run 7 car trains without any grades and therefore, the Kadees give me SOME of the benefits of replacement wheelsets....the clickity-clack sound and the cleaner, better tracking running metal wheels.

You also mentioned that the Kadee finish will wear off over time. I know that but I like the appearance I get with the wire brush in the Dremmel....both the wheel treads and FLANGE become silver....like the prototype. I guess I think the few minutes with the Dremmel is worth the effort. It's like anything in this hobby....we all spend our time where we think it's worthwhile.



Regards,
Mondo

[Anonymous]

I've now done as suggested by Walthers and added some grease to the bearings on my Pullman sleeper. I used a tiny blob of "Vaseline" (petroleum jelly) in each bearing, this also seems to help with electrical conductivity - at least, It's used on vehicle battery terminals for this reason. I found an immediate improvement in free-running - The car will now run far further if given a "shove" along the track than before, it's also stopped the squeaking noises! I'm not sure how much difference it has made to the pickups, they seem pretty much unchanged. I'd not read Don's advice about using Kadee graphite lube when I did this - I'll give that a try on my Walthers bilevels (these use the same basic truck design). Thanks for the tip!

[BRAKIE]

Guys,One of the best free rolling trucks I match together is the Athearn truck and P2K wheel set..I don't even need to use the"tool" on my cars.
I think I may have started something at the club with that combination as 80% of the guys copied my match even though I did not intend for that to happen...[:0]

[Don Gibson]

Railroading Brit:

The Vasoline will work just fine (My grease D'Jour is TEFLON impregnated), and much preferred to oil. the GRAPHITE recommendation will only work better should you use the Walthers car lighting system, since grease is not a good conductor of electricity.

Grease applied to 'Carriage' Battery terminals is to prevent OXIDE buildup on the posts from the Sulphuric Acid fumes in the battery. It acts as a sealant, not a conductor.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

I've now done as suggested by Walthers and added some grease to the bearings on my Pullman sleeper. I used a tiny blob of "Vaseline" (petroleum jelly) in each bearing, this also seems to help with electrical conductivity -!

New solutions bring new problems. I have tried two products to increase the roll and temporarily
eliminate the squeal in my Budd passenger cars riding on IMs.
KD -Grease-em(Don's recommendation) and Conducta lube & cleaner that comes with a small diameter needle applicator(cleans & lubes commutators & brushes.)

In looking through my inventory I discovered another product; Motor bearing lube for all motor shafts.
Will not sling off spinning shafts or attract dust or dirt by static cling???????? so the directions say.
I think next time around I will experiment with this one on my worst performing car
.
Donald/Larry, comments please.

[BRAKIE]

Chuck,The KD grease'em works..But,I have a hard and fast rule about NOT using oil or grease on my axle points that is why I settled for the Athearn trucks with P2K wheel sets after trying several combinations..You see I found this combination to be very free rolling and almost as free rolling as the stock Athearn blue box trucks-which by the way I have not found a equal as far as being free rolling to date.. .[:D]
Now,as I mention before when I tweak my locomotive drives(regardless of brand even my 4 Kato GP35s did not escape) I add a very small drop of oil to my drive shaft at the joints,bearings,flywheel shafts and on the gears..Oil is not a dirty word unless it heavily use on locomotives and gets sling all over the place...[8] I hate grease and therefore I do not use it-not even Grease 'em on my KD couplers.[:0]
As far as new and improve products or ideas..No...I find what works well for me and stick with it..[;)] I found there are less headaches by staying with what works then trying every new and improved idea or product that comes along.[;)][:D]

[Don Gibson]

CHUCK:

'SQEALS' are generally being caused by metal-to-metal friction - at least in real railroads. The lighting system in Walthers Budd cars uses metal Half-Axles set into metal side frames. Oil with coductive properties added (such as TV Tuner Cleaners) apparently are not doing the job for Walthers.at the factory. My preference for passenger cars is Teflon grease - but in Walthers Budd cars, grease is not an electric conductor. Graphite, on the other hand IS.

Time will tell about it's rolling properties. I took a 'squeaky' Budd car and put a very small amount of graphite into the journals, and awaaaaay it went. Plus I haven't lost the opportunity to add lighting.

QUOTE: " I hate grease and therefore I do not use it-not even Grease 'em on my KD couplers." - BRAKIE

BRAKIE: There is NO GREASE in 'Grease 'Em'. It's pure Graphite.




.

[BRAKIE]

Don,I am will aware of what Grease 'em is...Just went over your head..It contains the word "grease" and I hate grease..Get it?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

CHUCK:

'. Plus I haven't lost the opportunity to add lighting.

QUOTE: " I hate grease and therefore I do not use it-not even Grease 'em on my KD couplers." - BRAKIE

BRAKIE: There is NO GREASE in 'Grease 'Em'. It's pure Graphite.

I negated the lighting system when I up graded to IMs. Only one wheel is insulated.


.

[Anonymous]

Everyone seems to agree about how plastic wheels attracts dirt due to static electricity and requires cleaning more often than if using metal wheels. However, you will clean the track regardless of wheels. There are many other reasons to operate rolling stock with quality wheels. Although, metal wheels may not be in your budget and if your just an everyday railroader, there is nothing wrong by running plastic wheels. However, I find more advantages of metal wheels are often worth the investment. . Smoother ride and an increase of lower weight for better tracking along with keeping the track clean. Also, one side is normally insulated so if your a modeler who likes to add lighting to caboose cars, passenger cars or create some animation, you can pick up track current to do this task directly through the wheels with pick up shoes either along the axles or wheels. The better metal wheels sets will have metal axles too. Some good brands currently marketed are JAY BEE wheels, Intermountain and Branchline just introduced a new improved nickel plate RP-25 metal wheel in 33" inch and 36" inch that is also a superb product. Other wheels like KADEE, Proto 2000 are also good over using plastic. Select some different wheels and see which works best for you and your budget. Pricing ranges on brands and number of axles packaged. In the long run, operating rolling stock with good couplers, well balanced and tune cars with metal wheels will be more enjoyable than with out. Sometimes, items may come ready to run with everything perfect, yet Taking the extra time to improve your rolling stock will make it much more enjoyable operating with your favorite locomotive.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

CHUCK:

'SQEALS' are generally being caused by metal-to-metal friction - at least in real railroads.
Time will tell about it's rolling properties. I took a 'squeaky' Budd car and put a very small amount of graphite into the journals, and awaaaaay it went. Plus I haven't lost the opportunity to add lighting.

It's additional maintenance, but typically higher performing products usually demand higher quality care. (Just ask the owner of a Ferrari Testarosa!) [;)]

So basically we'll be lubricating journals, just like the prototype. [4:-)][tup][C):-)][tup]

10-4!

[fwheadon]

Go metal - less plastic "dust" and less static cling means less gunk to be cleaned from rolling stock wheels and from locomotive wheels which means more operation as less time is wasted clelaning wheels. Less locomotive wheel gunk means less annoying interuption of power, for either DC or DCC. Sound is great, as is additional weight at the lowest possible point on a car. Less rolling resistance means easier operation as locomitves work less hard, or for the same effort can pull a longer train. Less wobble on the axle is important, but even more important is the reduced likelyhood of creeping out of gauge as plastic wheels are prone to do when mounted on metal axles unless glued into place. Search out the best alsternative for any given truck frame as P2K, IM Reeboxx and KD all vary both in axle length but in the angle of the point on the axle end.

[mcouvillion]

Richard, my club is going through the same questions you are about the advantages of metal wheels, with several guys saying the plastic ones are "good enough". I used to be the same way, but am now switching over to metal wheels as time and funds permit. The biggest reason is the dirt factor, but not because the wheels abrade or deteriorate. I don't believe they do that at all. Plastic wheels in contact with metal rails are tribogenerators, meaning they generate static charge, which attracts dirt to the wheels. The plastic holds the charge just like a capacitor. The attracted dirt is then ground into the wheel tread and the railhead. Metal wheels do not generate or hold a charge, so the dirt is not attracted to the wheels and the rail. The metal wheels also add weight to the car and and lower the center of gravity, both very much desired in reliable operation of rolling stock.

A few of the club members have seen the difference between the performance of rolling stock with plastic wheels and those with metal wheels and they are now in the process of converting their favorite equipment. My only comment on metal wheels / suppliers is to find one that you really like that works well with your equipment, then stick with them as much as possible.

One comment on wheel diameter. Most of the kits come with plastic 33" wheels, even when the model should have 36" wheels. It took me forever to realize that generally, cars 70 tons (140,000 lbs) and under use 33" wheels, and those above use 36" wheels. When the bigger cars have the right diameter wheels, I don't need the shims on the truck kingpins to get the couplers to the correct height. Who woulda thought that such a small difference in diameter would make such a huge difference!

[Don Gibson]

PROBLEM with replacing wheels:
If you use a different diameter wheel it throws off the coupler height.

Until Genesis and some other deluxe cars came on the market, rolling stock was either 33" (freight) or 36" (passenger) wheeled to save money. Exception: older Rivarossi and now IHC who use 31" on everything.

[Don Gibson]

PROBLEM with replacing wheels:
If you use a different diameter wheel it throws off the coupler height.

Until Genesis and some other deluxe cars came on the market, rolling stock was either 33" (freight) or 36" (passenger) wheeled to save money. Exception: older Rivarossi and now IHC who use 31" on everything.

[Anonymous]

Ah metal wheels, when I was running trains on the club layout I swore by them. Especially Intermountain wheels, I found them to be the most free rolling of them all.

Reboxx wheels give similar performance but are available in different axle lengths. Something that can be really handy.

Another thing about metal wheels with plastic axles I've found is that over time the points will wear down, and become rather blunt.

Alvie.