ATLANTIC CENTRAL BLI, that's a joke, I have grandchildren that have been born and learned to walk and talk in the time since they where announced. BLI is in trouble and scared of MTH for some unexplainable reason, if you ask me. That's why we are seeing retooled Hudsons with MTH like features before we see the long list of "other" stuff promised years ago. Sheldon
BLI, that's a joke, I have grandchildren that have been born and learned to walk and talk in the time since they where announced. BLI is in trouble and scared of MTH for some unexplainable reason, if you ask me. That's why we are seeing retooled Hudsons with MTH like features before we see the long list of "other" stuff promised years ago.
Sheldon
Unfortunately true, my thoughts exactly.
A thought just struck me out of the blue. Why doesn't Atlas make a steamer in HO?!? I mean, they make AMAZEING diesils, and yet no steam. Hopefully, Atlas will hear our prayers, be smart, and MAKE WHAT IS NEEDED!
nik .n A thought just struck me out of the blue. Why doesn't Atlas make a steamer in HO?!? I mean, they make AMAZEING diesils, and yet no steam. Hopefully, Atlas will hear our prayers, be smart, and MAKE WHAT IS NEEDED!
Bravo, good point.
Atlas is really changing O gauge for the better too, their steam era classics rolling stock is the best of the best in O gauge, just bought several of their box cars in the last few weeks.
I too would hope Atlas starts making steamers in HO.
rjake4454 fwright Class lights were used at night; most railroads used flags instead of lights during the day. Fred W Ok, thanks, I wasn't aware of that. If you don't mind my asking, how do you feel about marker lamps when properly displayed in HO models? For instance, in a yard or near the engine house, wouldn't HO steamers benefit by having illuminated marker lamps? Apparently MTH got this right, with DCS functions, they can go on or off.
fwright Class lights were used at night; most railroads used flags instead of lights during the day. Fred W
Class lights were used at night; most railroads used flags instead of lights during the day.
Fred W
Ok, thanks, I wasn't aware of that. If you don't mind my asking, how do you feel about marker lamps when properly displayed in HO models? For instance, in a yard or near the engine house, wouldn't HO steamers benefit by having illuminated marker lamps? Apparently MTH got this right, with DCS functions, they can go on or off.
rjake4454,
Based on the modelers I know, and what I read on this forum and the Bachmann forum, very few modelers are interested in working class lights, marker lights, station sounds, smoke, etc.
And only half to two thirds are even interested in DCC and basic sound. Actually more are probably interested in basic sound than are even interested in DCC, but quickly they see that DCC is the best way to have sound, at the present.
And because they already have lots of models from other manufacturers, either DCC or DC controlled, VERY, VERY few are going to be interested in buying a DCS controller and tring to figure out how to use it AND their existing control system just run a few MTH locos and gain access to these few extra features.
Based on all the responses to MTH on this and other forums, MTH is barking up the wrong tree thinking HO modelers will imbrace the kind of brand loyality typical in O gauge. It just won't happen.
AND, since MTH locos will not perform correctly on my 12 volts DC, I will never buy one.
BLI/PCM should not be afraid of them, they should pay more attention to the modeler market. But apparently they have not learned anything from their own mistakes so far.
First they thought everyone would want DCC with sound. That failed and they made the stealth series. Try to buy a stealth series BLI/PCM loco today. You can't. They all sold out quickly but no more have been made.
Now they are into the BlueLine thing, keeping prices lower and allowing DCC users to intall their prefered decoders, and selling the same product to both DC and DCC users. This seems to be working pretty well. The latest run of Mikes sold very well from what I saw. Its all I paid attention to since the other items where of no interest to me.
But now we have Paragon2, trying to compete with MTH, rather than completing projects they promised three and four years ago. Why? It makes no sense?
Bachmann continues to offer locos with DCC decoders so inexpensive that us DC users just take them out and more advanced DCC users upgrade them. Everybody is happy with the price and the product.
Atlas, Proto, Athearn, Intermountain, Bowser all continue to offer both DCC and DC models. That should tell you something. Some say many DCC users buy the DC versions to intall their prefered decoder, maybe. Regardless of how many stay DC and how many get user installed decoders, fact remains these manufacturers are providing choices for ALL modelers. Not expecting modelers to convert to "their" system.
I have no plans to convert to DCC or DCS, not ever, never, not a shot. I'm not interested in onboard sound and my advanced DC control system does eveything I want. Why would I spend an extra $2000 just for decoders for features I won't use?
Bachmann and Proto remain my most purchased loco brands based on selection, price, quality and value. Athearn and Intermoutain right behind them for specific models. I model the east coast in 1954, I don't own any west cost steam, modern diesels, and I don't have any PRR, so just look at all the models I don't own - but have over 100 locos. Wake up manufacturers, there are enough Big Boys and K4's.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BLI/PCM should not be afraid of them, they should pay more attention to the modeler market. But apparently they have not learned anything from their own mistakes so far.
Sheldon, I don't know that BLI is making many mistakes. I would be silly to claim that they have made none, but generally they have done well. If anything, like any sensible and intelligent entity, they adapt when circumstances change, and that is the market. Between competition and quality control issues all around, supply and demand, the recesssion, poor to fair consumer brand loyalty, and all other artefacts of the HO world, the successful business is going to keep customers coming back in sufficient numbers that they make a profit on most or all runs of a given model. BLI should not be judged just yet, in my opinion, not until the black powder smoke clears in this naval battle between them and MTH and we can count the masts.
The market, as has been claimed, is hot for larger engines. I doubt that either MTH or BLI is running willy-nilly to their suppliers for large engines because they see failed runs when the accounting is done. Instead, those monsters have a great deal of appeal, and when they get more gizmos and details added to begin to rival brass, suddenly you have an increase in interest for those who would like to run them. Darn it, it just happens that there is more profit in them, too...also pointed out.
There is another part of this equation...psychology. We expect to pay more for fancy and bigger items. Some of us do, some won't, some can't. T'is always thus. But we consumers expect to have to cough up more money for things with more materials, complexity, and labour/time in them...it's just economic reality. If BLI, in wanting to do good for the hobby by agreeing to run two or three smaller early-1900's engines, learns that they will have to charge $400 for a Consolidation or Harriman Pacific with the same quality and detailing as their new Paragon 2 line, how many of us will pay that much for something when you can get an MDC or a Spectrum for half that? There is no market! Oh, there is interest all right, but not many who would snap up 1500 Harriman Pacifics yielding the necessary profit of $80-100 per engine for BLI or MTH.
ATLANTIC CENTRALFirst they thought everyone would want DCC with sound. That failed and they made the stealth series. Try to buy a stealth series BLI/PCM loco today. You can't. They all sold out quickly but no more have been made.
I purchased a new Stealth J Class 4-8-4 from an etailer just two weeks ago. It will be converted to DCC/sound shortly. There is supply for those who look...maybe used in many/most cases, but there is supply available. I don't know that BLI will run a DC version of their Paragon 2 lines...maybe the market is soft according to their figures.
-Crandell
selectorThe market, as has been claimed, is hot for larger engines. I doubt that either MTH or BLI is running willy-nilly to their suppliers for large engines because they see failed runs when the accounting is done. Instead, those monsters have a great deal of appeal, and when they get more gizmos and details added to begin to rival brass, suddenly you have an increase in interest for those who would like to run them. Darn it, it just happens that there is more profit in them, too...also pointed out.
And yet Bachmann has made 2-8-0's non stop for a dozen years with no end in sight. I'll bet the price of one they have sold more Spectrum 2-8-0's than any 6 BLI/PCM products you can pick. All on one set of tooling with only a few small changes over all that time. In fact I almost have more Spectrum 2-8-0's than all my BLI/PCM pieces - 8 Spectrum 2-8-0's, 9 total BLI/PCM (and four of them are ABBA F3's sold as AB sets, so if we count them as only 2, connies win 8-7)
Historical note - that's why Athearn does well and that's what made GM a success in the 50's/60's. Did you know that almost every GM car made from 1959 to 1970 used the same door handle? Talk about saving tooling costs.
I'm not against big locos, I have a bunch of them. I'm against all this endless duplication by different companies at the expense of a wider selection of offerings.
If Bachmann and Athearn can build 2-8-0's and 4-6-2's for $200-$300, why can't BLI?
BLI/PCM has made one BIG mistake in my opinion, their pricing. The dumping of extra product after the "rush" is over has lowered the overall "value" of their products in the market place. Making each new run to have a lower percieved value because some buyers will just wait for the closeouts.
I have nine pieces of BLI/PCM. Only three were purchased at prices near retail. The rest all purchased on closeout at 45% to 75% off. One was purchased NIB used.
But I buy Bachmann, Proto, Athearn and Intermountain at normal 20%-30% discounts all the time. Because I know if I want it that's the going price. Sure, I will grab a bargin on anything I need when I see it. But I have come to expect BLI/PCM to be given away after the rush is over. I'm not alone in this view. And having worked in the hobby business, I've seen this customer behavior before.
Everything BLI/PCM does speakes to being under capitalized and it is hurting them. And now they think MTH type customers are bigger buyers than Athearn, Proto, Intermountain type buyers. Not a bet I would take based on the modelers I know and run with.
I have been puzzled by the same thing for quite a while but I think the simple answer is that manufacturers offer so many large locomotives because that is what the consumers want. Apparently, size matters to a lot of modelers, even those with small layouts. I've encountered modelers on this forum who want to know if the latest Big Boy being offered will run on the 22" radius curves of their 4x8 empire. It doesn't seem to matter to some that a large locomotive is going to look a little silly pulling a half dozen cars around their tight curves. I have one of the basement empires you refer to and I can run any sized loco on it I choose, but I too am disappointed by the small selection of small and medium steamers. Last year, Bachmann finally introduced a 4-6-0 in their Spectrum line with DCC and sound. Now if somebody would do the same with an RS-3, it would make my day. Maybe they have and I have missed it. The small body of the RS-3 makes finding space for sound decoder and speaker quite a challenge. Atlas, Athearn, are you listening.
I actually prefer the smaller engines. If I had enough room for the big curves needed for gaint engines I would definetly have some Challengers and Big Boy's in my roster, but they would really only get used to impress. I would rather have a roster of Mike's, Berk's, Con's, Hudson's, Mogul's, Prarie's, Mohawks, Northern's, and Pacifics for motive power on my layout. Once in a while maybe run a Challenger or a Decapod but not often. I have enough diesel fuel running through my veins to keep my layout roster all diesel, but I've been bit by the "steam bug" bad enough I will still have some in general roster. Run a special fan trip exscursion train once in a while I guess. I will sort of be a collector, but my collection will by no means be idle.
I'm the "new" generation I guess when compared to many of ya. So I started with DCC. I've always liked UP so that means big steam. But shoot, that means big diesel tool. And well, small steam... and wait.... small diesel!!
Right now I'm mostly filling in all the loco's from say '62 back. Just a small sampling of each. Two BB, two Challengers, Two Verandas, a Baby Turbine, a Coal Turbine, two Constoldations, one FEF, one TTT, a few SD7's, SD9's, S-1's, PA's, F's and E's.... a 3-Unit Turbine. Still need a Mikado, and 4-12-2 and others.... a 0-8-0 would be VERY nice to have, but you get the point.
I'm in no hurry, they will show up soon enough. Just give it some time.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBLI/PCM should not be afraid of them, they should pay more attention to the modeler market. But apparently they have not learned anything from their own mistakes so far. First they thought everyone would want DCC with sound. That failed and they made the stealth series. Try to buy a stealth series BLI/PCM loco today. You can't. They all sold out quickly but no more have been made. Now they are into the BlueLine thing, keeping prices lower and allowing DCC users to intall their prefered decoders, and selling the same product to both DC and DCC users. This seems to be working pretty well. The latest run of Mikes sold very well from what I saw. Its all I paid attention to since the other items where of no interest to me. But now we have Paragon2, trying to compete with MTH, rather than completing projects they promised three and four years ago. Why? It makes no sense?Sheldon
There's no doubt that BLI has had some missteps. If you go back a couple of years in the forums, the establishment of Factory Direct, which undercut their dealers on price while selling off excess stock was one. Many LHS after getting burned, refuse to stock BLI, which puts the burden on FDT to sell the line. As you pointed out, all are symptoms of under-capitalization.
Then BLI used the same manufacturer as law suit-happy MTH, and got tangled up in sharing/stealing at the manufacturer level. The resulting legal settlement allows MTH to produce locomotives from the same tooling for a certain number of years/certain number of models - I'm not sure of the details - but we will see the same basic locomotives coming from both BLI and MTH for at least this year and into next.
That said, aside from the Bachmann Ma & Pa 4-4-0 and the once-a-year new issue from Walters/Proto 2000, BLI has had the only all new steam models in HO in the past couple of years.
just my observations
fwright There's no doubt that BLI has had some missteps. If you go back a couple of years in the forums, the establishment of Factory Direct, which undercut their dealers on price while selling off excess stock was one. Many LHS after getting burned, refuse to stock BLI, which puts the burden on FDT to sell the line.
There's no doubt that BLI has had some missteps. If you go back a couple of years in the forums, the establishment of Factory Direct, which undercut their dealers on price while selling off excess stock was one. Many LHS after getting burned, refuse to stock BLI, which puts the burden on FDT to sell the line.
Yeah, thats definately true, actually my two LHS have both told me this as well.
If you are modeling the Norfolk and Western, wouldn't it be desirable to get the locos most remembered for this particular railroad, the J, class A, and Y6b? These engines, although large, were indeed used extensively were they not?
At least in the Norfolk and Western, large wheel arrangements were by no means rare.
rjake4454 If you are modeling the Norfolk and Western, wouldn't it be desirable to get the locos most remembered for this particular railroad, the J, class A, and Y6b? These engines, although large, were indeed used extensively were they not? At least in the Norfolk and Western, large wheel arrangements were by no means rare.
Sure, do you think there are 20,000 modelers with serious N&W layouts?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sure, do you think there are 20,000 modelers with serious N&W layouts?
Why wouldn't there be? Its one of the most popular railroads of the east coast, right up there along with the PRR.
Loco I'm the "new" generation I guess when compared to many of ya. So I started with DCC. I've always liked UP so that means big steam. But shoot, that means big diesel tool. And well, small steam... and wait.... small diesel!! Right now I'm mostly filling in all the loco's from say '62 back. Just a small sampling of each. Two BB, two Challengers, Two Verandas, a Baby Turbine, a Coal Turbine, two Constoldations, one FEF, one TTT, a few SD7's, SD9's, S-1's, PA's, F's and E's.... a 3-Unit Turbine. Still need a Mikado, and 4-12-2 and others.... a 0-8-0 would be VERY nice to have, but you get the point. I'm in no hurry, they will show up soon enough. Just give it some time.
Hi Loco,
Just an FYI, UP only had ONE 0-8-0, #4500, it was a 2-8-0 that had the pilot truck removed, and the drivers re-equalized.
UP did have a large roster over the years of purpose built 0-6-0s.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
challenger3980UP did have a large roster over the years of purpose built 0-6-0s.
And were any of these made?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
It certainly appears that Bachmann has reduced their support of HO in comparison to their On30 and O gauge lines and large scale offerings.
Where in the past there were a number of smaller engines released in HO, the number of new On30 engines has greatly overshadowed the HO line. The same holds true for their O and large scale lines, quite a bit has happened there as well.
HO line seems to have only received updated older Standard line engines recently.
blownout cylinder challenger3980UP did have a large roster over the years of purpose built 0-6-0s. And were any of these made?
Yes, PFM imported a number of these back in the 50-60's era, I cannot be sure of the number or any other importers without my Brown Book. But back then many of PFM's runs were in the 500 - 750 units per run.
I just saw one on E-Bay recently.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
But all the cars at the mines, branchlines, peddler freights, etc. were brought out for the big locos by the myriad number of G Class 2-8-0's, M Class 4-8-0's and W Class 2-8-0's which have only been available in brass. The famous Abington branch was serviced by the 4-8-0's only until the end of steam on the N&W. Many of the smaller engines survived longer than the big steam on most railroads, because they could get everywhere without worrying about wheel loading.
don7 It certainly appears that Bachmann has reduced their support of HO in comparison to their On30 and O gauge lines and large scale offerings. Where in the past there were a number of smaller engines released in HO, the number of new On30 engines has greatly overshadowed the HO line. The same holds true for their O and large scale lines, quite a bit has happened there as well. HO line seems to have only received updated older Standard line engines recently.
And this could well be because even a company as big as Bachmann only has limited resources and can't do all these things at the same time. Similar comments are often made about Athearn not doing this or that and suddenly, all sorts of product appears. Both Athearn and Bachmann are very professional about not tipping their hand too early about future product. A lesson some others in this business could learn.
I would like to see Bachann offer thier 2-8-0 with standard Walcherts valve gear instead of the Baker gear it has now. Would make a nice starting point for Buffalo Creek and Gauley #13 other than that one had a bit odd driver spacing. I road behind that engine many times during its years on the Logansport and Eel River RR during the Iron Horse Festival each year. I agree the whole middle (common size) of work a day steam is being largely ignored by most companies.
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
Yes, they were made by the pre-walthers Proto 2000, 2 road#s in UP. To the best of my knowledge though, the current Proto by Walthers has negelected the UP versions, and has not released updated ones with sound and traction tires. They are very nice looking models, but unfortunately both of mine are out of service, one shows an OPEN, the other a short. They are light though and the traction tires on the new version are probably a very good idea. I was really pointing out, though, that the UP was not a user of the 0-8-0 type, the only one they had was a converted 2-8-0, not originally buillt as a switcher. I will have to double check, but as I recall, I read that in William W. Kratville's "Motive Power of the Union Pacific".
Humm... I was just thinking about that 0-8-0 and I got a book somewhere.... now where did it go.......
And, yah, no 0-6-0's to speck of. But heck, I got the only CTEL ever made so I need the 0-8-0 TOO!!!!!
You know, not that me admitting this really matters, but I was at my hobby shop today looking for some steamers, and this thread came to mind. There is indeed a strange absence of quality small steam engines.
I guess I'll join the rest of you in requesting that BLI or Athearn begin making some quality E6 Atlantics, at the very least, we need some of those.
Broadway should make the Consolidation, I hope they do. Spectrums are very nice, but I want something a little heavier and slightly more detailed.
Oh yeah, if anyone wants to petition Broadway, go for it, you can count me in. The S1 can wait, considering there was only one built, and it actually was a nightmare and overall poor engine type that was barely used.
Now I would rather have the smaller engines like the rest of you, so I guess you have changed my mind. I'm on board with the rest of you. My preferred road names are Pennsylvania and B&O. I don't model the west coast, but I've always like Santa Fe, so some smaller engines put out by Athearn under that wouldn't hurt either.
rjake4454 Broadway should make the Consolidation, I hope they do. Spectrums are very nice, but I want something a little heavier and slightly more detailed.
I have both Spectrum and BLI steamers and the detail level on the Spectrums is IMHO detailed to a higher level than the BLI engines.
As far as weight goes, note than a number of the Spectrum engines do not have plastic boilers but die cast metal boilers.
Having watched this discussion from the sidelines, I've been giving thanks that I model what I do and got most of my motive power when I did.
My Nihon Kokutetsu steam roster consists of 2-6-0, 2-6-2, 2-8-0 and 2-8-2 tender locos and two tank locos (2-6-2 and 2-6-4) adapted directly from their 2-6-0 tender brethren. No 4-6-2 or 4-6-4 types - they never ran on my prototype line. Nor did the biggest modern JNR steam loco, the E10 class 2-10-4T. (Actually, there were only five E10s They were built for use as pushers on one specific hill, and were withdrawn when catenary was strung over that line.)
Like the JNR, I do own locos with twelve and sixteen drivers. All of them are catenary motors. So are the two classes of Bo+Bo box cab motors, and the 2 ED16 class 1-Bo+Bo-1s.
On the protolanced Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo, the one lonely 2-6-6-2T towers over a motley collection of six drivered tank locos, and two mis-matched 0-4-0Ts (The articulated is a kitbash on a Mantua mechanism -hardly a giant among locomotives.) I'm still looking at a possible Garratt or Golwe - either of which would have twelve drivers. (Or I could use the two junk Docksides as the basis for a 2-4+4-?T, either Mallet or Golwe...)
As you can tell, even my, "Big," engines are small engines.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
don7 I have both Spectrum and BLI steamers and the detail level on the Spectrums is IMHO detailed to a higher level than the BLI engines.
Interesting, could you elaborate? In which ways specifically are BLI less detailed than Spectrums?
How about the BLI K-4 vs. the Spectrum K-4? From the photos I have seen the BLI wins hands down, but I still love the spectrum K4, because its moderately priced, but its a little light, and the whistle doesn't sound right.
I have held the Spectrum Class J in my hands, no offence to anyone on here who has one, but the BLI is far more heavier and detailed in my opinion.
Rumor mill from a hobby shop is we will soon see some smaller road engine steamers from P2K, they are considering several different wheel arrangements. For now I just haunt ebay and shows for PFM and Tenshodo brass, normaly affrodable and comparable to what a new run P2K or BLI will cost. And I have no interst in sound or DCC. For myself, older brass is much much easier to work on, usualy 3 screws the the whole superstructure is off the chassis with easy access to the motor/gearbox. Most of mine still have thier big Pittman open frame motors, if it runs smooth and quiet with under 1 amp of draw, why mess with it. I am all for seeing some fresh, resonably priced mid size steam on the market. 2-8-0 with walcherts valve motion instead of bachmanns baker gear, a nice heavy 2-8-2 with elesco feedwater heater overhanging the centered headlight screams drag engine for yard to yard transfer runs. Here we I live, 2 divisions of the NKP cross each other, the IMC district and the Clover Leaf. The largest steam thru here were the Mikados, usualy the USRA light mikes according to club members that remember the last years of NKP steam. Now the PRR line thru here saw K4's and I1sa decapods as well as the occasional M1a mountain types. Alas that line is mostly gone. I suspect if we had a complete list of produce steam engines, the smaller to midsize engines would far outnumber the huge monsters we seem to see in HO scale. Its like F units, every manufacture seems to feel the need to make one. Cheers Mike
rjake4454Interesting, could you elaborate? In which ways specifically are BLI less detailed than Spectrums?
Just off the top of my head, ALL my Spectrum locos have cab/tender bridge plates, My BLI heavy Mikes don't.