rclanger Doug, The most accurate would be sales. That would be the only source that would be believable. Just a thought. None of us have enough information to say one way or the other.
Doug,
The most accurate would be sales. That would be the only source that would be believable.
Just a thought. None of us have enough information to say one way or the other.
Exactly! And those that have those facts and figures-like(say Atlas) isn't talking.
BTW..The reason I chose Atlas because they have monthly releases in all 3 Scales-4 scales if one counts 3 rail O Scale releases separately.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
About the only truly accurate count would be if the U S Government asks on the census form, "Are you a Model Railroader?" and "If so, what scale do primarily model in?"
I don't see that sales would be any better than a survey in a magazine. Spending habits can fluctuate skewing the results. Someone starting out or expanding may be buying more scale specific items than a well established modeller. Someone with more disposable income can buy more than someone with less.
Sales, like surveys where you have to choose only one, also don't take into account someone who is modelling in two or more scales.
Magazine surveys show the direction the magazine should take to keep subscribers. Sales figures show the manufacturers what's most likely to sell in the future. I bet they both breakdown about the same as to popularity of scales.
Jeff
jeffhergertAbout the only truly accurate count would be if the U S Government asks on the census form, "Are you a Model Railroader?" and "If so, what scale do primarily model in?"
And criticisma arise in census results as well---the questions aren't specific enough or are too picky or---etc for example.
jeffhergertSales, like surveys where you have to choose only one, also don't take into account someone who is modelling in two or more scales.
And here again, the questions would have to be very specific---and there are scales that are even more obscure than the ones we hear about---for example, lokes that are done in 1/250 or 1/32---
jeffhergertI don't see that sales would be any better than a survey in a magazine. Spending habits can fluctuate skewing the results. Someone starting out or expanding may be buying more scale specific items than a well established modeller. Someone with more disposable income can buy more than someone with less.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
wjstix OK then....Is this a model railroad?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8__pRxVSyyw I know it's hard for people to understand, but in recent years "hi-railers" have been building layouts that are true 1:48 scale, using the many full scale products made by Lionel MTH and others. Heck, Lionel now even sells scale couplers as a retrofit!! Except for the fact that it runs on three rails (which ALL O scale layouts did for many years, except some put the third rail on the outside) these layouts are NOT TOY TRAIN LAYOUTS!!
OK then....Is this a model railroad??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8__pRxVSyyw
I know it's hard for people to understand, but in recent years "hi-railers" have been building layouts that are true 1:48 scale, using the many full scale products made by Lionel MTH and others. Heck, Lionel now even sells scale couplers as a retrofit!! Except for the fact that it runs on three rails (which ALL O scale layouts did for many years, except some put the third rail on the outside) these layouts are NOT TOY TRAIN LAYOUTS!!
By the long accepted definition of "Hi-Rail", the answer is no, it is not. It is still just a Hi-Rail layout. No matter how elaborate a layout may be, if it employs "toy trains", it does not qualify as a part of what MR long ago termed "adult scale model railroading." This is not a judgement on my part, only an acknowledgement of definitions long established in the hobby. I appreciate that a lot of newer hobbyists have difficulty understanding and accepting the old, established rules and definitions, or even being aware of why and how such definitions came about, but they nevertheless exist and have been a part of the hobby for many decades.
CNJ831
BRAKIE Then how about us bi scalers or tri scalers? Where do we fit in with these polls since most polls I seen in the past said chose one?
Then how about us bi scalers or tri scalers?
Where do we fit in with these polls since most polls I seen in the past said chose one?
I've used the ol' subscribe to mag---buy same mag that survey showed up on---did both.
BTW. Even if the question was a choose 'X' number of scale your in--it STILL would be likely to have split the way it does. +/- 5%.
BRAKIE.We all know MR doesn't do much for the O Scaler,N Scaler,G Scaler,tinplater and other modeling groups nor does it do much to impress advance modelers regardless of scale.One doesn't need to look far to see these scale specific magazines.N Scale has 2 magazines..O Scale has 2.S Scale has one.There are others as well.
And the subscription numbers aren't very high for any of those--so the polls derived from those won't be of much use either.
BRAKIEAnd that's my point..Magazine polls isn't worth the paper committed to them.
And we spend a lot of the time crabbing about useless surveys? They must've been useful to somebody--even if they were useful to a ---ohno ohno--a--a " Marketing man"
blownout cylinder BRAKIE Then how about us bi scalers or tri scalers? Where do we fit in with these polls since most polls I seen in the past said chose one? I've used the ol' subscribe to mag---buy same mag that survey showed up on---did both. BTW. Even if the question was a choose 'X' number of scale your in--it STILL would be likely to have split the way it does. +/- 5%. BRAKIE.We all know MR doesn't do much for the O Scaler,N Scaler,G Scaler,tinplater and other modeling groups nor does it do much to impress advance modelers regardless of scale.One doesn't need to look far to see these scale specific magazines.N Scale has 2 magazines..O Scale has 2.S Scale has one.There are others as well. And the subscription numbers aren't very high for any of those--so the polls derived from those won't be of much use either.
Interestingly enough, the NMRA did a survey a while back that addressed the first question, concerning those who indeed model in multiple scales. The question addressed was: "If you model in more than one scale, what is your primary modeling scale?" Although I'm sure the N-gauge folks won't like the outcome, these were the results:
O 16.3% (undoubtedly including Hi-Railers and tinplaters)
HO 54.6%
N 14.2%
Z 1.2%
LS 8.9%
And concerning the circulations of the other magazines/specialty magazines beyond MR/RMC as sources of hobbyist data, most have almost insignificant readerships (i.e. sales of around 10,000 copies per month, as compared with MR's ~150,000 and RMC's 60,000 per month), which would make them an unreliable source for general hobby information. Honestly, most of these are pretty much one man operations at the point of operating month-to-month.
CNJ831,Can you give us a link to that survey results?
I tried looking on the NMRA site and didn't have any luck..
Maybe I am looking it up wrong?
Also as we discuss before MR is loosing readers..
Where are they going?
I suspect to the speciality magazines.
A lot of these so called "one man" magazines has been around for years and just as good as MR or RMC and has top notch advertisers and authors.
Also we have NO idea how many of those 150,000 monthly issues are not sold.Only MR can answer that question.
My subscription runs out in July..
The question I must answer do I renew or drop MR in favor of N Scale Railroading and N Scale or do I continue to read all 3? Recalling as a N Scaler MR doesn't give me much bang for the buck..As a HO scaler its still a valuable magazine.
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Barry,Marketing uses a lot of tools to include in store samples..I can recall getting small 2-3 sheet box of "Bounce" fabric sheets in the mail..
BRAKIE Also as we discuss before MR is loosing readers.. Where are they going? I suspect to the speciality magazines.
In order to find THAT one out ---still need to do a survey---ooopps
BRAKIEThe question I must answer do I renew or drop MR in favor of N Scale Railroading and N Scale or do I continue to read all 3? Recalling as a N Scaler MR doesn't give me much bang for the buck..As a HO scaler its still a valuable magazine.
I keep in the MR as well as the others myself. If all N scalers left MR--then you'd have a 'ghettoized' hobby----each behind their fortress walls---throwing barbs at each other--------not that there weren't times-----
Yeeesh! talk about a split market then----
Boy, you guys sure are lettign CNJ get your goat. Of course, he _is_ hiding the ball a bit. The survey he's referring to is the NMRA survey from Model Railroader magazine, May 1996. In it, in answer to the "scales modeled" question, it was:
HO 81.4%
N 29.9%
O 17.7% (not distingushed between scale and tinplate)
Large 10%
S 4.7%
Z 1.3%
In answer to the "primary scale" question, which is what he quoted, the percentages were:
O 16.3%
Large 8.9%
S 3.9%
_Since_ 1996, empirical evidence suggests that N scale and large scale might have gained. On30 might also be taking modelers away from HO.
But my best suggestion is to avoid the irritant, as I usually do ...
alco_fan Boy, you guys sure are lettign CNJ get your goat. Of course, he _is_ hiding the ball a bit. The survey he's referring to is the NMRA survey from Model Railroader magazine, May 1996. In it, in answer to the "scales modeled" question, it was: HO 81.4% N 29.9% O 17.7% (not distingushed between scale and hi-rail) Large 10% S 4.7% Z 1.3% In answer to the "primary scale" question, which is what he quoted, the percentages were: HO 54.6% N 14.2% O 16.3% Large 8.9% S 3.9% Z 1.2% _Since_ 1996, empirical evidence suggests that N scale and large scale might have gained. On30 might also be taking modelers away from HO. But my best suggestion is to avoid the irritant, as I usually do ...
O 17.7% (not distingushed between scale and hi-rail)
Yes, that is indeed the source for the multi-scale modelers numbers and there's no reason not to consider them valid. Our hobby's demographics generally change very slowly over long periods of time. If you get the NMRA's Bulletin, you'd also have seen this table was only a very small part of what was probably the most detailed and informative hobbyist survey ever published.
What really gives me a smile is the bit about empirical evidence showing the surge in N since that survey was published. I have been hearing claims about this for three decades now and not a single survey has ever indicated that any such thing has or is occurring...it's always a product of the rumor mill. What's presented as the "evidence" are claims of "I think; I feel; I heard at the hobbyshop; this guy I know said; somebody posted on the xxx Forum; a poll we took on the N Scale Forum shows..." I'm afraid that never once have I seen offered an actual published or cited study in evidence to back this up...and outside of modeling, the hobby's demographics has always been my biggest interest so I tend to think I'd have come across such info if it was actually out there. By all means, if you have such documentation please post it as I would be very interested in it...unless this is this just another case of ignorance is bliss?
As to Large Scale, I certainly hope that it has grown to a significant degree over the past 13 years, since probably 75% of its equipment appeared within that interval. Nevertheless, it's still just a small niche within the hobby.
CNJ831N 29.9%
CNJ831In answer to the "primary scale" question, which is what he quoted, the percentages were
CNJ831N 14.2%
I suspect a statistical glitch in computation occured here. Any survey I ever saw had variations within the 5-7% bracket. Higher?----not so much
BRAKIE CNJ831,Can you give us a link to that survey results? I tried looking on the NMRA site and didn't have any luck.. Maybe I am looking it up wrong? Also as we discuss before MR is loosing readers.. Where are they going? I suspect to the speciality magazines. A lot of these so called "one man" magazines has been around for years and just as good as MR or RMC and has top notch advertisers and authors. Also we have NO idea how many of those 150,000 monthly issues are not sold.Only MR can answer that question. My subscription runs out in July.. The question I must answer do I renew or drop MR in favor of N Scale Railroading and N Scale or do I continue to read all 3? Recalling as a N Scaler MR doesn't give me much bang for the buck..As a HO scaler its still a valuable magazine.
Your right, Brakie, it's not on the NMRA website. As indicated in my preceeding post, the figures appeared in the NMRA Bulletin in 1996 as part of the results of a very broard hobbyist survey. MR even cited a few of this survey's results in their own pages.
You already know my feelings on where the MR readership is going, so it's best not to resurrect that hot topic! However, there is nothing to indicate any reader migration to the seconday magazines. Their numbers have been constant or in slow decline as well, for some years now. As I already pointed out, several are essentially at the minimum survival limits concerning readership.
Regarding the numbers of MR magazines sold per month, we do know that figure exactly. The circulation figures are published annually in the January issue. For the end of 2008 it was 156,676 copies, with an actual press run of just over 220,000.
blownout cylinder CNJ831N 29.9%---and yet in the other: CNJ831In answer to the "primary scale" question, which is what he quoted, the percentages were---the answer ends up-- CNJ831N 14.2% I suspect a statistical glitch in computation occured here. Any survey I ever saw had variations within the 5-7% bracket. Higher?----not so much
No, no glitch there, Barry, you are just missing the point that the two differing figures are responses to two separate questions. The first was to all who were being surveyed as to what scale they modeled. The second figure is in response to the question that if you happen to model in more than one scale, which do you consider as your "primary" scale. Two different questions with two logically different answers.
Brakie wrote:
Larry,
My subscription is paid through June 2010, but I have already answered that question. NO, I wont be reupping my MR subscription, I don't get the "Bang for the Buck" any more that I feel makes it worth the subscription price. I will however renew my CTT and Trains subscriptions, just not MR. I have also been debating whether or not to renew my club membership (HO), but as yet, I haven't decided whether or not the enjoyment that I get there justifies the time, money and effort spent on it. I did go down to the clubhouse last night, and I had the whole 4200 square foot layout to myself. It took a little running between the Union Station pit, and the cab tower to set everything up, but it was kind of Fun to get my Challenger(#3980) powered "Portland Rose" passenger train out with clear signals as far as I could see ahead of Me
Portland Union Station
.
Stockyard at Wishram, WA
Gosh Awful Gulch
Crooked River High Bridge (modeled over the Deschutes River, Modelers License applied here)
The Vista House and Crown Point
Multnomah Falls and Lodge
Hood River Mill
Portland's Steele Bridge (Fully raised) This is a working model of Portland's Steele Bridge, which is unique in that the bridge decks left independantly of each other. All the other double deck lift bridges in the world are rigidly linked, and both decks lift as a single unit. The Steele Bridge allows the lower deck (rail) to be lifted seperately, if that allows sufficient clearance for the river traffic, and thus not interfering with roadway traffic. Our Model mimics this operation, including operating counterweights.
I Hope that You have Enjoyed this Photo Tour of the Columbia Gorge Model Railroad Club, in Portland, OR. We model the Columbia River Gorge from Portland, OR to Wishram, WA plus a portion of the Oregon Trunk from Wishram to Bend, OR and also include a very nice Logging division in the layout as well.
I personally find the size of O-Gauge to be addictive. Both are Lionel. Ironically, I had 37 Lionel HO Challengers and 4 Lionel HO Veranda Turbines, before I bought even my First Lionel O-Gauge equipment.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
CNJ831 No, no glitch there, Barry, you are just missing the point that the two differing figures are responses to two separate questions. The first was to all who were being surveyed as to what scale they modeled. The second figure is in response to the question that if you happen to model in more than one scale, which do you consider as your "primary" scale. Two different questions with two logically different answers. CNJ831
Now that I reread the thing I can see where that misreading I did would come from---the dang thing is that I am a little puzzled by that large a difference in response just from a different form of question. Then again, a 15.7% difference does not really amount to much given the amount of answers received for each--and I'm in N scale----
To me I'd still be subscribing to MR---and getting the MRC as well-----