Phooey on DCC. I'm taking my flints and flame hardened sticks and going back to my cave.......
One big advantage to DC is that you can buy toggle switches by the bag for next to nothing, miles of wire for next to nothing, and when installed correctly, will last for 50 years or more trouble free. Rock solid reliability with DC. For a modeler on a tight budget I don't see DCC as being a viable control system, for the $600 start up cost that DCC will be, you can build and senic and entire layout with DC.
Anybody want a piece of my dino burger?
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
tangerine-jackAnybody want a piece of my dino burger?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
TJ Make mine a Brontosaurus Burger...with cheese.
For me DCC makes little sense unless your running two or three trains on the same mainline. Outside of N, how much of a percentage of us are operating on a layout large enough to do that, very few I suspect have a layout large enough for that. For those in N its easier to justify DCC as its scale allows for the longer runs and more trains in the same space a modest HO scale layout would take. But as the scale goes up, the justifications start to wane.
If we hold that 70% of the layouts in this country are at or near the 4x8 Plywood Pacific size, and that most of those are HO, that indicates a modest one track or two track operation at the most. Its far harder to justify the costs for DCC when your only running one-at-a-time trains, its far less expensive to just wire up the layout in the traditional way like TJ says.
The only way to tap this market will be to make DCC a standard inclusion in all starter sets, and a standard inclusion on all new products. So that as time goes on simple attrition will insure that all new layouts being built will be much more likely to include DCC from the onset just "because its there" so to speak, like the powerpack, it just came in the box.
But there in lays the rub, in order for something like this to work, WHO'S system would be declared the standard? Because in order for this to truely take effect, it would have to be one universal standard that could be applied universally to all products from all manufacturers. But in this day of Proprietary Product Placement, the chances of that happening are about as likely as Selma Hayak falling from the sky onto my lap and declaring "You are the one for me!"
I'm like TJ, it makes no sense for me. My layout is straight DC single mainline operation, with way-old fashion Atlas controllers, Why so primative? Well simple, they're cheap and they work. Its hard to aurgue with that. If I had a huge layout spread out all over the place, I might consider it, but for the Joe the Plumber model railroader, I just dont see the need.
Have fun with your trains
No thanks. I heard dinos were an endangered species.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I've had a lot of the same questions as the OP. I sincerely appreciate all of you sharing your knowledge of DCC. I really like knowing that I can connect it through a switch and continue to run DC when I want.
I do have a few questions that haven't been covered:
1. I have a reversing loop, what does it take to make this work in DCC?
2. I have a turntable and it does not automatically reverse polarity when it turns 180 degrees (I use a switch to reverse it in DC); how will I wire this for DCC?
3. If I do the wiring for 1 & 2 so they can run on DCC, will I still be able to switch back to DC?
4. I assume that there are decoders for Z scale. The reason I bring this up is that I have a couple of very small rail buses. I might be able to shoe-horn an N scale decoder into one, but the other has about 1 cc of vacant interior space. I think a Z scale decoder might fit (if there is such a thing). The motor is a coreless motor I got out of a dead digital camera lens. Do you think I could use a Z scale decoder in an HO scale railbus such as this?
5. All of my turnouts are power-routing; will this be something I have to deal with?
6. One person told me that all I have to do is isolate the motor brushes from the rest of the loco and install a decoder to use DCC in a brass loco, is this true?
7. Is DCC now standardized so I can use decoders from various manufacturers on my system (once I get one)?
I'm looking forward to your replies (please, no jokes about the dark ages). In case it matters, I'm not interested in sound (when I encounter it at shows, I think it's kind of neat, but for now just dealing with DCC is enough).
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
shayfan84325 1. I have a reversing loop, what does it take to make this work in DCC?
A DCC auto reverser. (Example only: PS-X auto reverser from Tony's trains: http://www.tonystrains.com/products/dccspecialties.htm) There are tons of other ones out there that are cheaper. But the PS-X is one of the higher end ones in terms of features and realiability. (So I've been told and read)
You can use an autoreverser. Or you can use the same reverse DPDT reverse switch if you dont mind doing it manually.
Yes. But you might have to install blocks if you wish to run multiple trains.
Possible. But not likely. Coreless motors are natorious to overheating with full PWM power. However more modern advanced decoders are now supporting coreless motors. Try looking at the digitrax DZ series. They are smaller than a dime.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_dz123.php
You could also try swapping out your motor with a cored one. I believe really tiny cored motors are used in zip-zaps (once sold by radio shack) www.zipzaps.com
http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZQ5AipQ5AapsQ20microQ20rcQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ
http://cgi.ebay.com/ZipZaps-Micro-RC-Performance-Booster-Upgrade-Kit-New_W0QQitemZ250302798421QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ebayphotohosting
If both your points, and your frog are all interconnected (live frog) then you increase the likelihood of a short IF the wheels of your loco momentarily touch both points at the same time. This is usually non-fatal, but will shut down power to the system. A auto resetting circuit breaker can reduce the chance of this happening.
Information about converting your turnouts to be DCC friendly is available at:
www.wiringfordcc.com
I recently tried this on live frog Peco's at a club that runs DC. They only shorted the system once.
6. One person told me that all I have to do is isolate the motor brushes from the rest of the loco to use DCC in a brass loco, is this true?
The motor electric terminals have to be isolated from the frame. That means if one of your motor contacts ground to frame and not a wire, then you will have to seperate them. If you don't, you will burn out the decoder.
Mostly yes. NMRA mandates a minimal compatibility level to gain their seal of approval. However some decoders offer ADDITIONAL features which are not mandated by the NMRA. So one decoder might have a feature, while another may not. But all DCC decoders should work on all DCC systems.
Hope this helps
-D
shayfan843254. I assume that there are decoders for Z scale. The reason I bring this up is that I have a couple of very small rail buses. I might be able to shoe-horn an N scale decoder into one, but the other has about 1 cc of vacant interior space. I think a Z scale decoder might fit (if there is such a thing). The motor is a coreless motor I got out of a dead digital camera lens. Do you think I could use a Z scale decoder in an HO scale railbus such as this?
I saw this topic and knew it would generate a lot of responses. I, too, am just getting back into the hobby after a long absence and was always a DC guy. I'm planning a new HO layout - bigger than 4x8 but smaller than the great outdoors - and have decided to go with DCC. It was a tough decision as I always had success with DC but the rat's nest of wires under the layout always drove me crazy, no matter how hard I tried to keep things neat and tidy. I'm pretty sure my new layout will be of a size to run just 2 wires to the track. I may set up a bus wire in case I want to add some features in the future. Since I envision most of my turnouts being manual I don't have that worry. The one thing I want to be able to do is set up some kind of block signaling system, probably Atlas.
I have also found some entry level DCC systems for 300 dollars or so. Extra stuff included. My big concern are the locomotives. The road names I wish for will probably force me to put in my own decoders which scares me to death but from what I have read it is not too difficult. I hope!
Besides, being able to hear sounds coming right out of the locomotives and being able to run two or three or whatever over the same track sounds unbelievable. As long as I remember to get one on to the passing track before I have a head on collision.
Mainetrains
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
As an "almost" 64 year old (December) "lone wolf" model railroader, who just switched to DCC, let me add my "two cents." My layout is a small point to point switching pike which is really fun and challenging to operate. I had six engines, all analog. I added "sound" (of sorts) via a MRC "diesel sound" box--not very effective. Finally, I converted, buying a Walthers H-10-44 as a "test bed" engine and then converted my smallest engine, a Spectrum 44 tonner, with a LokSound decoder. For me the advantages are three--simple wiring, sound (!!!!), and EXCELLENT speed and momentum control (using 128 step mode). I have ordered a sound chassis for my Stewart VO-1000, and probably will sell my other three analog engines. Any regrets? One--waiting so long to switch! There is something fascinating about hearing that FM switcher sound and then the chatter of the Caterpillar engines in the 44 tonner! By the way, I purchased a "low end" DCC system, the MRC Prodigy Express and it works very well for my needs.
TRNJ
I have had and used DCC for around 10 years now, but am strongly considering going DC with my next layout. To me, I like the old DC days (heck, I still like to build kits - forget the RTR stuff!) because I do enjoy building and wiring control panels and what-not. I do not use the DCC system for what it is meant for. I don't care for DCC sound, lighting in the locos (MV lenses look best to me), throwing turnouts, etc.
Since the layout will be 13' x 8', roughly, a single track main appeals to me. Also, since it'll be mainly myself operating it, DC might be the way to go.
Enjoy? You used the word "enjoy" and "DC" in the same thought? How quaint. You mean to say if you "enjoy" wiring (as I do) and "enjoy" power routing (as I do) and even *ghasp* "enjoy" building kits (as I do) then you see no need for DCC (as I don't either)? Facinating. Here is a modeler who is "enjoying" the hobby without DCC and RTR. Come on over Centercab, me and Vic are burning some stegosaurus steaks now.......
Driline, by the way a Cuda is a Plymouth, not at Dodge. May thing I do different from most people here is my bench gets ran a lot, so do the engines. At the apex it was ran 40 hours a week, that is a lot of run time. Far as the quality of BLI / PCM and Blue Line, well I am not asking Santa for any this year. I am asking Santa to get them fixed!
I have cut back on the number of rolling stock they pull, single steam engines max is 25 cars except the Big Boy, 45 is most I will pull with it.
Sorry I went off a little off topic, but the point is I have never had to send a DC engine in for repair.
Plymouth Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
cudaken Driline, by the way a Cuda is a Plymouth, not at Dodge. May thing I do different from most people here is my bench gets ran a lot, so do the engines. At the apex it was ran 40 hours a week, that is a lot of run time. Far as the quality of BLI / PCM and Blue Line, well I am not asking Santa for any this year. I am asking Santa to get them fixed! I have cut back on the number of rolling stock they pull, single steam engines max is 25 cars except the Big Boy, 45 is most I will pull with it. Sorry I went off a little off topic, but the point is I have never had to send a DC engine in for repair. Plymouth Cuda Ken
I like to "rib" you a little when it comes to cars. You see I like to buy cars built by Americans In America. That's why I buy Toyota On the other hand I think Chrysler/Dodge are the best built German cars in the world,even though they're made in Canada and Mexico.
Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler, same company.
Buick, Pontiac, Olds, Chevy, same company.
Do you have any Atlas DCC loco's? or Proto 2000? or Kato? Now those are nice DCC runners.
vsmithFor me DCC makes little sense unless your running two or three trains on the same mainline. Outside of N, how much of a percentage of us are operating on a layout large enough to do that, very few I suspect have a layout large enough for that. For those in N its easier to justify DCC as its scale allows for the longer runs and more trains in the same space a modest HO scale layout would take. But as the scale goes up, the justifications start to wane.
DigitalGriffin tangerine-jackAnybody want a piece of my dino burger? No thanks. I heard dinos were an endangered species.
Don--
Just the Stegosaurs, we T-Rex types are doing VERY well, LOL! In fact, I just got a really GREAT recipe for BrontosaurusSauerbraten. Yummy!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhiteJust the Stegosaurs, we T-Rex types are doing VERY well, LOL! In fact, I just got a really GREAT recipe for BrontosaurusSauerbraten.
Tom - sorry to be a rivet fossil counter, but nowadays wouldn't those be called Brachiosaurus Sauerbraten?
I'm a DCC late-bloomer. I actually bought a Digitrax Chief starter set in July 2000 when I moved into my present house, but due to a series of unfortunate delays, I didn't have a layout until 4 years later. I operated in DC mode with a set of MRC CM20's for 2yrs while my Digitrax stuff sat unused on a shelf. I dreaded the expense - and the labor - of installing decoders in ~50 locomotives, so I kept putting it off. Finally I was convinced to start installing decoders in February 2007, and discovered it wasn't as bad as I had feared. I spent another year installing decoders until I got about 20 of them done, then I connected my command station to the layout and, much to my surprise, everything actually worked!
One of the things I could never do in DC was move individual locos around close to each other in a terminal. But with DCC I can, quite easily! Plus all the other benefits people have already mentioned.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
CSX_road_slug twhiteJust the Stegosaurs, we T-Rex types are doing VERY well, LOL! In fact, I just got a really GREAT recipe for BrontosaurusSauerbraten. Tom - sorry to be a rivet fossil counter, but nowadays wouldn't those be called Brachiosaurus Sauerbraten? .
.
CSX: Nah, Brontosaurus was Jurassic, Brachiosaurus is Cretaceous, like we T-Rex. We German T-Rex types like to let our Sauerbraten marinate a LONG time! Brachiosaurus would be WAY too fresh!
Seriously though, for you guys using DCC, I say GO FOR IT! It's just something that is not right now in my future. Maybe if I were twenty years younger and could afford all of the conversion--
Oh well. Besides, I just saw a brass 2-10-2 Triceratops down the field. They make GREAT little horned haulers, and you don't have to break them in that long.
Stego steaks, huh!? I'm sooo there!
To be honest, I have installed more decoders than I care to think about. It just doesn't appeal to me anymore. I would just rather spend my time doing something else such as throwing toggle switches!
CC
O.K. I'm probably going to earn myself the new nickname "Putz of The Forum" for this one but anyway here goes: If you put a DCC locomotive on a DC layout would the DCC locomotive do anything while the DC power is running or just sit there waiting for you to plug in the DCC Throttle?
dirtyd79If you put a DCC locomotive on a DC layout would the DCC locomotive do anything while the DC power is running or just sit there waiting for you to plug in the DCC Throttle?
If it's a dual mode decoder (QSI Revolution, Tsunami, Lenz Silver & Gold, MRC Brilliance, and quite a few digitrax) then it will run on a DC layout. Sound decoders will start moving about ~7V DC. Dual mode ordinary decoders will start moving ~3->4Volts DC.
I personally never had very good luck getting sound decoders to run well on a 12V DC layout. There's just not enough juice. They need around 16Volts.
Older decoders don't support dual mode, so be sure to read the feature set.
I have been going to layouts over the years, all of which are run on DC power in a variety of ways.
I have a memory of a southern Pennsy railroad club that had a set of 4 Geeps pulling a bunch of coal upgrade. The operator of that engine was totally 100% locked on his rotary power panel and the other hand tight onto his engine throttle while verbally talking with all the other operators in the large room about who has which power control over the upcoming siding/main switch he was approaching. The cross talk was alot.
Fast forward to the present time. I visit a Friend's railroad who had DCC in the form of Digitrax Empire Builder with the DT400's He was happy to hand me a throttle and move a train. Once I learned where all the switches were, I was operating the train and not the layout.
Knew on the spot, right then and there I will be going into DCC all the way on my own home road.
Basically sold off all of my analog engines, some of which profited over thier original purchase pricing and plowed the new found funds into a new engine fleet fully equippted with QSI from the beginning. Over a few years realized Ive too many children to manually program, charts and fine tune. Sold off the unnecessary engines and used the money to get into the DCC control system itself.
Now when I buy a kato switch, I simply wire it to the Digitrax DS 64, give it a name (Address) and off I go. Feeders? No problem. Signals? No problem except which wire/led's go where and how to power it all.
The DCC system is protected at the power supply, protected again at the command station and will be protected by auto breakers dividing the layout into 4 areas. A short or derailment in one part wont shut the entire thing down.
Finally but not last, the Katos recieve thier power via the DS64's via thier own wall power seperating them from the Main track power. When signalling arrives THAT will be seperate from everything else.
Anyone say the words "Easy peasy wiring?' (Sorry Rapido, just had to say it)
Yes, some gaps here and there, some reversing over there and other situations might exist in DCC but... nothing that will be a show stopper.
Finally but not last, prices fall each year. That monster Super Chief Set cost retail about 440 or so and more for the power supply, throttles etc. I say the cost was spread out over months, one componet at a time instead of one massive purchase.
Wires? Just a spool of 12 gauge wire and getting one of 18 gauge. That's it. Two little spools for everything so far. If something comes up a dab of wire takes care of it.
In the old days every toggle has to be considered, wired and soldered correctly positioned into the entire layout matrix. My local clubhouse has a layout that has hundreds of toggles on several panels through out the room. Heck, Im not certain which one of those toggles are functional. And there is a very large CTC board up onto the Dispatcher's room behind the engineers floor to consider.
All very nice but a dinosaur that has not yet understood it's extinct. All replaceable by DCC with two simple wires to the track and proper gapping/reversing areas. However that will probably not happen in my life time because the people that are part of the club will probably have to pass on before a new generation takes it to DCC.
DCC? Drop it in place, tie it to track power or loconet and GO.
me lik DC. me lik DC. DC gud. me tak DC rok go hom
fyr gud. fyr mak meet gud. meet gud wit modl tran. modl tran in big cav got III rales. III rale gud.