-Morgan
Hm. Well, to my way of thinking at least, if you're bridging the Rockies, west to east, the logical starting point for me would be Salt Lake City. Logical ending point: Denver. Which puts you through the Colorado Rockies instead of that little dip in Wyoming between the northern and southern Rockies called Sherman Hill, LOL!
So how about heading up the Green River toward Craig? That's the same river that Dave Moffat was planning to head DOWN to get his Moffat Line from Craig to Salt Lake before he ran out of money. Then after that, you can kinda/sorta parallel the Craig Branch down to Orestod, get trackage rights on Rio Grande as far as West Portal, then take off over the Front Range via the old Moffat Line, bypassing Moffat Tunnel, and then wangle your way down the Flatirons to Denver.
OR: Get trackage rights on Rio Grande from Salt Lake City to Glenwood Springs, then take off southeasterly using the old, abandoned Colorado Midland Line over Hagerman Pass and then on over to Colorado Springs, with trackage rights on the Colorado and Southern/Rio Grande/Santa Fe Joint Line north to Denver.
What I'd do, is get hold of a railroad map of Colorado that shows not only current but abandoned lines, and see where your imagination takes you.
But I'd stay away from South Pass and Sherman Hill if you want some good old MOUNTAIN railroading. That area's about as scenically interesting as an anthill, IMO.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Yeah, buut Salt Lake to Denver is the Overland. That was my original plan. I found Oakland (San Fran) shot across to Denver, then North to Cheyenne. The only diference between my way and the route SP took was that I went around the Great Salt Lake and SP went over it.
As to a map, I';ve been looking at getting one of the SPVs, just not quite there yet.
That second option gets in a lot of loan power in.
Other thoughs from other people?
Jefferson Davis should be your starting point. Before he was president of the Confederacy, he was Secretary of the Army and commissioned the surveying of the western US for possible transcontinental routes. There were at least 5. Pick one of the ones that the other railroads didn't pick.
Actually instead of the ATSF being bonus, it should be your primary focus. Why would the UP and SP want a bridge line across the Rockies between them, when they already either go to all the locations themselves or between the two of them form the bridge line?
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Uh, because I want an excuse to run Cab Forwards and later on Turbines more than I do the 60,000 Warbonnets I have from people's collections. Secpond Reason? Daylight (will most definately be fudged in somehow if I have to dig out dad's shoehorn). Third Reason: Black Widow.
From a storyline standpoint, why wouldn't one want another keyhole of a route to sneaker out across the rocks with as opposed to having to sit waiting for Tehachapi or Donner, or whathaveyou free up some space.
EDIT: Got a neat map from the Jefferson source. Still have to figure out if it was claimed though.
Don't be afraid to confiscate existing Class I or Regional routes. Just rework history that your railroad got there first. Use real place names and it really gives your railroad an identity. You can also run plenty of power from connecting roads as run through or haulage trains. I did this with mine to get from where I wanted to start to where I wanted to end and with whom I wanted to conntect. Many times people recognize town names and will say "I railfanned there a few years ago."
Larry
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52481330@N05/
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/8745/sl/c
Flashwave wrote: Yeah, buut Salt Lake to Denver is the Overland. That was my original plan. I found Oakland (San Fran) shot across to Denver, then North to Cheyenne. The only diference between my way and the route SP took was that I went around the Great Salt Lake and SP went over it. As to a map, I';ve been looking at getting one of the SPVs, just not quite there yet. That second option gets in a lot of loan power in. Other thoughs from other people?
I must be ignorant. I thought the original UP/CP (before SP) didn't go to Salt Lake City or Denver. UP came west through Cheyenne, not Denver, followed the North Platte for a while (Denver is on the South Platte), and stayed north of Salt Lake City. It was the D&RGW that built the most direct route from Denver to Salt Lake City - and then on to California with the WP. Of course, this eventually all became UP when the SP and D&RGW merged, followed by the merger with UP.
The original CP transcontinental went from Sacramento through Donner Pass, Truckee, Reno, Sparks, the Humboldt Valley through much of Nevada, and on to Utah. But that's the Sierras and not the Rockies.
There were/are several routes through the Rockies in Colorado. Most of them began as narrow gauge. They departed from Boulder, Golden (Denver), Colorado Springs, Pueblo, and Walsenburg along the Front Range.
It really depends on what era(s) you are trying to model as to what would be the logical connections and tie points.
just my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I could be mistaken beyond Salt Lake City. But I'm pretty sure the map I saw had the SP cutting just North of Salt Lake City across the Salt Lake on muy long bridge.
Era: I;m gonna start the layout in the 50s, look back into the l;ate 19th cntury, and push all the way forward to now, since rock doesn;t generally change much over 5 decades.
Also, I just realized I'm making the smae mistake most people my age are and lumping the Sierras into the Rockies as one genral mass of rock heading roughly North/South.
I;m not against rewriting history, but I'm heading for fictional towns because I have a lot of ideas from Dad and I's storytelling trips to kill time that I want to incorporate.
Flashwave wrote: Maybe there;'s little to be said beyond "what do you want?" But I;m gonna ask anyway. Of the several narrowed down ideas I've got for a layout is a Bridgeline across the Rockies. Preferaby situatwed at pioints where SP and UP (SF would be a decent bonus) through traffic wouldn't be too far a stretch. Problem for me is that I can;t seem to find a good place to start and end. My last routing wound up tracing the Overland route completely unintentionally. Since most of the route is going to be fictional, all I really need is a good idea of where to anchor too and head for that isn;'t following pre-existing track. If it requires changing the geography of a Large mountain or 6, we can do that.
Just about all the viable and many non-viable routes through the Rockies had railroads built in them at one time or another. If you are trying to pick end points, I would select the Great Basin city/town first. Las Vegas and various points in Utah come to mind. If you head further north, the next obvious choice is Boise. That might not be as much of a reach as you might think - there were several visions of linking across Oregon (and the SP) to Idaho. Eventually, IIRC, Wendell, NV became the tie point for the Willamette Valley traffic.
On the east end, all the major players (UP, SP/D&RGW, ATSF) tried to get connections via rights or ownership into Denver, Colorado Springs, and Pueblo.
my thoughts, your choices
My NG bridge route went through the Illusion mountains of Colorado. Since I am not modeling NG anymore, I'll sell you the line and you can put in standard gauge track.
Here is your receipt:
Received from Flashwave for all rights and entitlements to the abandon PV Short Line in the Illusion mountains of Colorado.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Gandy dancer:I may just take you up on that. Is there percjhance a Historical Society I could hunt down schemes and routes on and tie into
I can live with thinning out a new pass that doesn;t exist. my only regret to that is areas where it;s pretty common knowledge of the equivelent of Everset is populating there.
Flashwave wrote:I could be mistaken beyond Salt Lake City. But I'm pretty sure the map I saw had the SP cutting just North of Salt Lake City across the Salt Lake on muy long bridge.
The original central route west that was surveyed was the "KP" route, the UP's line from Topeka to Denver. the UP actually built north of that and went through Ogden around the north side of the Great Salt Lake. The CP built aroun the north side and the two passed each other, then came back and connected near Promintory.
The SP later built the Lucien Cutoff across the lake as a bridge, which was later filled in as a causeway. The original routes were the UP to Ogden, then the UP to Portland, the UP to Salt Lake and Los Angeles, and the SP from Ogden to the Bay area.
The DRGW went west out of Denver to Provo and then Salt Lake City, where it connected with the WP, which was one of the last of the transcon lines built.
Yeah but the operations did. Back in the late 1980's the WP and UP mergered and turned the entire traffic flow through the Salt Lake City/Ogden gateways upside down. Instead of the UP connecting to the SP at Ogden, the UP connected to the WP at Salt Lake. Instead of the WP and the DRGW connecting at Salt Lake, the SP and DRGW connected at Ogden. The entire traffic flow turn upside down. Then 10 years later the UP and SP merged and the whole thing basically went back the way it started with the UP connecting the the SP at Ogden.
Also the comment was made earier that railroads would want an alternate route on a different railroad. Wrong. Shippers might want an alternate route, the railroads want to keep as much traffic on themselves for as far as they can. There is little or no financial advantage to using another bridge route. It is better to haul the traffic 1000 miles out of route than give it to another railroad. The SP would rather haul a load from St Louis to Portland by way of the SSW - Houston - El Paso - Tuscon - San Francisco than give it to the MP- Denver -DRGW - WP - San Franciso (- SP). The shipper pays the same amount of money for the shipment REGARDLESS of how far the railroad has to haul it. If the rate is $500 a car between ST Louis and Portland, the regardless of what route or what railroad carries it, the rate is $500 (isn't regulated railroads wonderful). So if 4 carriers handle the car, then 4 carriers split the $500. If one carrier handles the car, then that one carrier gets the entire $500.
Now you can make up any scenario you want to justify your model line. Reality in the model world is very flexible. Just be aware that its not in the real world.
I'm not wanting to follow to a letter, just enough to create credible.
Then, how does Tehachapi get split? Does SF have to fork over 250 for being on SP? Or could an SF train still make the 500 or more than the 250 if it;s still pulled by them?
There's a Really Good Reason why so many former rights of way through the Rockies were abandoned, and why Tennessee Pass has become an emergency bypass. It's called Winter, starts sometime after the first of August and usually lasts until the following June.
The second reason is that most of those routes were laid down in the days of 36 foot cars and short-wheelbase locomotives. The locating crews used snakes for straightedges, and corkscrews for detail work - not to mention grades more suitable to rack locos. I could just imagine trying to run long-framed 6-axle diesels and auto racks over the old D&SL route I drove some years back - but I'd rather not. Disastrous derailments depress me.
It's always fun to 'imagineer' possible rail lines, but the one key question the prototype had to answer was and is, "Does this make economic sense?" If revenues don't cover operating cost plus debt repayment and leave some left over to distribute to the stockholders (after taxes) the whole scheme will roll over and die. If it can't even cover day-to-day operating expenses...
That's why the Extreme Engineering TV programs leave me ROFLMAO! Sure, it is possible to (Bridge the Bering Sea, build a floating tunnel across the Atlantic or erect a humongous pyramid on the most expensive real estate on Earth - in the heart of a tectonically active area...) but does it make economic sense? Somehow, that question never gets answered - probably because it was never asked.
Chhuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with one hand on his wallet)
I'm gonna take a moment to summarize what I have.
There's a lot of operational questions to be answered, while I get this hammered out.
Chuck: I actually Imagineered a straight as an arrow electric line changing grades, tunnelling, and bridging gracefully in the style of the Alameda Corridor.
The mention of Colorado in this forum has rattled my memory to ask any modelers from there a question that has been sitting in the deep receses of my memory - here's the back ground.
During September 2006 while flying over Colorardo on an East coast flight bound for LA I noticed from the hight of, what do these jets fly at, 30thousand feet or so, large circles that seemed to be mown into the grass or fields below. They seemed to go on for miles, but I could not see any ready purpose for them. Can anybody out there give me some idea what these circles may have been?
No British crop circle jokes, Please
Bruce
citylimits wrote: During September 2006 while flying over Colorardo on an East coast flight bound for LA I noticed from the hight of, what do these jets fly at, 30thousand feet or so, large circles that seemed to be mown into the grass or fields below. They seemed to go on for miles, but I could not see any ready purpose for them. Can anybody out there give me some idea what these circles may have been?
Bruce; I live in Northern Eastern California and Nevada. I think you are talking about a piviot. It's a long, wheeled water sprinker system that, well piviots from a central water source. Water, about 1000 gpm, is pumped to the piviot from a near by well. Here most ranches grow hay, high protein afalfa brings in a very good price. Most of it grown here is trucked to Central Valley diaries.
Hope this helps, Rob
Pivot Irrigation.
A big sprinkler system that rotates around a central pivot. And if you want to ship them on your railroad, they are made in Valley, NE at Valmont, served by the UP. they recieve inbound loads of coil steel to make the tubing.
Flashwave wrote: Then, how does Tehachapi get split? Does SF have to fork over 250 for being on SP? Or could an SF train still make the 500 or more than the 250 if it;s still pulled by them?
The division is only on INTERCHANGE. When a car physically changes control from one railroad to another. Tehachapi is trackage rights. From a routing standpoint a car in an ATSF train is still on the ATSF. The ATSF pays the SP a per car rate or train mile rate to operate over the SP. There is no division of revenue.
Rob & Dave - thank you for that information. Now I know what these circles are for it seems so obvious. Trying to figure out what was going on has kept me amused , on and off now, for a couple of years.
Anyway, thanks again to you both for helping me out.