tomikawaTT wrote: How many threads, posted by modelers of all ages and levels of experience, start off with, "Where can I buy (fillintheblank)?" - (fillintheblank) being anything from grab irons to a fully operational 'turnkey' model empire? Every time, I am careful NOT to be among the first to reply? .... ....Thanks for hearing (reading) me out.Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
.... ....
Thanks for hearing (reading) me out.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I hardly ever visit such topics, or the "folksy" coffee and diner threads, or the train joke threads. Different strokes than what I enjoy.
BTW, Tomi ... every time I see your forum name my brain fills in a couple of "missing" letters and you become tomi-kilowaTT!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I personally like to buld freight car kits, except the only problem is that not many hobby shops sell them for good prices anymore; it seems like NOBODY stocks Athearn Blue Box kits, and all the rest of the kits are 20-odd dollars, WAY out of my price range.
I do a considerable amount of turning junk freight cars into fair models. They won't stand up to close inspection and won't win anything, but they work for now until I have the knowledge/money to upgrade my fleet. Most of my fleet are Athearns with weathering added.
In fact, my layout is built from cheap stuff disguised by weathering and details... (with the exception of locomotives and couplers, I don't skimp on those)
I do a fair amount of scratchbuilding as well, again, none of these will win anything, but they're fun to build, and some of them turn out to meet my criteria for now. I just scratchbuilt a fence out of stripwood (pronounced wood coffee stirrers...) for my layout, and I started a rail grinding train a while back but never completed it, as well as my good old snowplow.
The things I don't scratchbuilt yet are the items that have specific plans and/or have to look a certain way. That's why I like maintanace equpment, they're all different so no one can say it's not prototypical!
Many of us teens (myself included) build things because we don't have the money to buy them, although I can say this for myself, David and Chuck are right in that many modelers lack the skills and matirials to build many things, which is why we buy them. I know I don't have all that much confidence, which is probably why I stick to small things for now, because if I mess up then it's no big deal, it was built from junk anyway. Locomotives and such cost quite a bit of money, so if you screw up...
I will definetely keep scratchbuilding and doing things myself, I think I'm going to try to paint my next locomotive myself, rather than have a friend do it for me. I'll start with a cheaper freight car though.
These forums have provided me with so much help, motivation, and ideas. Thanks guys!
Biting one's tongue on this forum is both an "occupational" hazard as well as a necessary social skill. I "bite and sit" several times most any day I check on the MR forum.
Mark
Personally i know that i'm still a kid, but i like to build kits much more than buying RTR models, its scool to watch model kits go from a pile of parts to a struture or a railcar. I started model railroading a while ago, but now i'm serious about doing it, buying kits and building them makes me feel good that i just didn't waste my money on some detail boxcar and bought a nice kit. The only things that i buy rtr are Locomotives, and some railcars.
Tjsingle
I think Paul has really hit a great point.
My perspective is that we are simply determined by our desires/focus in railroading (operation, equipment, scenery, etc). However, because we are governed by limiting factors, namely the triangle of time, money, and space, we cannot necessarily focus on all of them. Often, we cannot focus on more than one before reaching our limiting factors. This is my reasoning for why it is incorrect to assume those who don't focus on equipment, as practically shown by doing kits or scratchbuilding/kitbashing, are not truly modeling.
My story:
My focus: operation.
My limiting factor: time.
I am a teen entering my junior year of high school. I spend most of my time studying or working in my father's business, and I have very little time now to work on my railroad and less in the near future. Because my primary focus is realistic operations, I need to reach a point of operational satisfaction on my 15x30 double deck railroad before I leave for college. Money and space are not overriding factors for me. Thus, I overwhelmingly favor options that prioritize time, which translates directly to RTR.
That's my story. On the other hand, I have a good teen friend who is also a member of this board. More constrained by space and less by time, his focus is detailing equipment and scenery. He has now become fairly skilled at painting and decaling locomotives, and has orders from a number of teen modelers in the surrounding area.
The point is that we are always governed by our limiting factors, and we can become highly proficient in the areas we focus while limiting our proficiency in the areas we don't focus. It's pointless to judge a modeler's skill by analyzing proficiency in only one possible focus.
I'm perfectly happy focusing on operations at the expense of building kits, and though some might judge me negatively for that, I don't care, and I don't think my operators will either.
Paul3 wrote: What some people are missing here is that for some folks, building models is not the focus of their hobby. Instead, it's running the trains that's their real hobby. Some are "roundy-rounders", while others are realistic operators. In either case, the building of scale models is merely the means to an end. If they build anything, it's because they have to (for economic reasons, usually), not because they want to. In that case, there's no fear of kit building, it's simply annoyance of kit building.I fully appreciate that there are those folks out there that build things just to build things (I'm not one of them, which is why I don't build armor or airplanes any more as after you build them, then what?). What's amazing to me is that if someone says they don't want to scratchbuild or build kits, the automatic assumption is that there must be something wrong with them (they are lazy, they have no talent, they are not a "real" model railroader, etc.). Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
What some people are missing here is that for some folks, building models is not the focus of their hobby. Instead, it's running the trains that's their real hobby. Some are "roundy-rounders", while others are realistic operators. In either case, the building of scale models is merely the means to an end. If they build anything, it's because they have to (for economic reasons, usually), not because they want to. In that case, there's no fear of kit building, it's simply annoyance of kit building.
I fully appreciate that there are those folks out there that build things just to build things (I'm not one of them, which is why I don't build armor or airplanes any more as after you build them, then what?). What's amazing to me is that if someone says they don't want to scratchbuild or build kits, the automatic assumption is that there must be something wrong with them (they are lazy, they have no talent, they are not a "real" model railroader, etc.).
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
So what is a real model railroader? I think the term covers a lot of ground but it sounds to me that it means whatever the person who is a model railroader wants it to mean.
Irv
riogrande5761 wrote: BTW, Tomi ... every time I see your forum name my brain fills in a couple of "missing" letters and you become tomi-kilowaTT!
Actually the Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo (Wealth River Valley Railway) is my 'protolanced' short line. The usual handle is Chuck, but I have been known to answer (react) to, "Sarge."
railroadyoshi wrote:My story:My focus: operation. My limiting factor: time.I am a teen entering my junior year of high school. I spend most of my time studying or working in my father's business, and I have very little time now to work on my railroad and less in the near future. Because my primary focus is realistic operations, I need to reach a point of operational satisfaction on my 15x30 double deck railroad before I leave for college. Money and space are not overriding factors for me. Thus, I overwhelmingly favor options that prioritize time, which translates directly to RTR.
Interesting point. The constraints of the paticular model railroader really do change how they enjoy the hobby. Actually, that's not completely true. If you are interested in realistic operation, there are many ways to getting to it; RTR is one of them. I am also interested in operation, but I have plenty of time, it's the money that is a problem for me. It's not all broken cleanly into different types of modelers.
Just my
LOL..I returned to this hobby 5 years ago and I'm 64 years old. I've only had to ask a few questions here on this or other MRR forums. I simply search for answers and thank God for the internet or AL Gore. The information that's available now that wasn't back then. And ebay and the places you can buy stuff for this amazing hobby that most hobby stores don't even carry. I'm from the old school of messy model railroading with chicken wire mountains and tunnels with paper machet and plaster, brass and steel track, flex track that would kink, and those awlful horn hook couplers. All my old locos and roling stock, are toy like by todays standards and the only thing you could buy back in the 50's-70's were tyco, bachmann, lifelike, lionel, etc. I kept all that stuff in the attic, outbuildings and garages over the years funny how it all still worked after all those years.
I've grown to DCC, and quite amazed as to how far model railroading has come. On these forums I learned how to make trees and bush's and how to blend grasses so they look real. I learned that styrofoam insulation is the only way to go for me for modeling mountains and tunnel's. Though I still use homosote road bed on plywood, it's real quiet. Thanks too for the acrylic paints and airbrushes. Thanks especially to those modelers who kept going all these years with experiences and patience for even us old new comers for showing us how to do things. I've been taking those old tyco's and making some real nice weathered and very used looking rolling stock, of course through trial and learning experiences, better learning on them than an expensive piece with all the fine detail on them out of the box. Soon I hope to be kit bashing from all the building kits extra pieces over the years and weathering some fine buildings that I've learned how to do it here on these forums.
My point is this, I too get a little out of sorts with some questions new comers ask. I guess some folks don't know how to use the search tab on this forum, because most questions have been asked and answered a dozen times or more. But thanks to those who have patience and don't get "shorty" with those seeking help. I find that as I mature with age I get more patient and willing to listen and try to help out and not flame for a "stupid" question. Hollering and flaming never gets nothing accomlished better we save those outbursts for football games and politics. I for one would never want to turn off anybody from this wonderful and creative hobby.
loathar wrote:How much of the stuff that you own did you actually make yourself? Cloths? Soap? Furniture? Bread and food? All relatively easy to make, but I bet you bought them instead. I bet nobody has made more than 1% of the stuff they own. At what point does a person decide the time, cost and effort to make something isn't worth it and just buys it instead?Why should trains(or any hobby) be any different??
Yeah I'd say that about covers it.
corsair7 wrote: Paul3 wrote: What some people are missing here is that for some folks, building models is not the focus of their hobby. Instead, it's running the trains that's their real hobby. Some are "roundy-rounders", while others are realistic operators. In either case, the building of scale models is merely the means to an end. If they build anything, it's because they have to (for economic reasons, usually), not because they want to. In that case, there's no fear of kit building, it's simply annoyance of kit building.I fully appreciate that there are those folks out there that build things just to build things (I'm not one of them, which is why I don't build armor or airplanes any more as after you build them, then what?). What's amazing to me is that if someone says they don't want to scratchbuild or build kits, the automatic assumption is that there must be something wrong with them (they are lazy, they have no talent, they are not a "real" model railroader, etc.). Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************So what is a real model railroader? I think the term covers a lot of ground but it sounds to me that it means whatever the person who is a model railroader wants it to mean. Irv
Irv,I fully believe you found the correct answer to that question.After all model railroading is a personalize hobby that each one of us has crafted into what we want it to be in order to enjoy the hobby in our own special way.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BlueHillsCPR wrote: loathar wrote:How much of the stuff that you own did you actually make yourself? Cloths? Soap? Furniture? Bread and food? All relatively easy to make, but I bet you bought them instead. I bet nobody has made more than 1% of the stuff they own. At what point does a person decide the time, cost and effort to make something isn't worth it and just buys it instead?Why should trains(or any hobby) be any different??Yeah I'd say that about covers it.
Actually one can raise his own food by raising a garden,buying a beef cow and pig..Been there when I was living in the country.Best food around.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
Although I don't scratchbuild much, this is the most recent (and best so far) scratch build that I have.
I have recently made the tunnel portal after no mass manufactured portal would fit how it needed to as well as the "retaining walls" prior to that. I'm still working on the tunnel itself and have to make an additional portal as well as more retaining walls on the other side.
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
galaxy wrote:I submit this for perusal: C) what is the way to weather a loco?
Thanks for the kind words Yoshi!
I personally get more satisfaction saying "I built that," or "I painted that," as opposed to "I got a high score." Its a physical accomplishment, as opposed to a virtual one, which is why I never really desired video games.
Those low on experience sometimes would want to not fail, as opposed to not trying. I'm only 15, and started scratchbuilding, and painting my own rolling stock a couple years ago. The early results weren't great but they began to improve. The more you try, the better you get. I'm far from an experienced modeler, but managed to assemble a 1970's wood craftsman coach kit. Not long ago I embarked on a kitbashing project. While Its far from finished, it doesn't look terrible for a first timer.
Alex
marknewton wrote: galaxy wrote:I submit this for perusal: C) what is the way to weather a loco?I'll bite. The way to weather a loco is to closely observe a real loco of the type you're modelling, and follow that. If you can't look at the real thing, look closely at photos. That way you'll end up with something believable, and realistic in appearance.The other way is to simply copy what other modellers have done, often with no reference to the real thing. And end up with something that is often neither believable, or realistic in appearance.Mark.
Hmmm. It was a rhetorical question/point. I was not looking for any answer.
While you make a valid point, though, I will explain its raison d'etre:
The idea behind posting that and its sister questions was that even the experienced modelers will argue amongst each other in a posted thread about how something should be weathered, perhaps leaving the newbie (or even a moderate) modeler confused, info overloaded, and exhausted.
Each has their own method of how to achieve the results you specified above, each as right as the others, and perhaps as wrong as the others.
A newbie, or someone seeking weathering info or feedback on a project is not going to produce like Aggro!
And even experienced modelers/weather-ers (and definately newbies) may not know what/when/where/how to get the latest weathering tools! (which was part of Chuck's opening paragraph).
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I remember as a young modeller seeing those super detailed or scratchbuilt a\c and armor models at my LHS and wishing I could do that. I would go to my LHS and ask ''do you have x,y or z detail or figure or whatnot?'' after a few years the owner asked if I ever tried making my own ''x,y or z'', he said it's not as hard as you might think, try it. That was over 20 yrs ago and since then I've learned so much it'd take a whole notebook to write it down!
I forget sometimes that there are those who don't have the benefit of 20+ yrs. of modelling, and a workbench that consists of 3 desks and a painting table, with a complete arsenal of tools and supples. In this day of packaged everything and ready made detail packs and decals, the art of scratchbuilding isn't practiced by the younger generation it seems. The questions like ''where can I get whatnot?'' are all too common. Sometimes I also bite my tongue and sit on my fingers when I read a question that seems like the answer to, is as obvious as the nose on your face........but perhaps the person asking, just plain doesn't know, and without the knowledge of how to ''scratch it'' want to know where to buy it. I suppose all we can do is try to help and suggest what they might try.
Building your own - whether from scratch or a kit -- means you will get a model that is truly one of a kind.
Your layout as a whole is a model you've built from scratch, after all.
Craig
DMW
jackn2mpu wrote:I have no problem with people buying rtr or built-ups. What I have a problem is when the manufacturer of same does away with the true-kit version. An example of what I'm talking about is P2K. They used to make some great kits, then they started with rtr versions of the same; not a problem yet. Then they added the simplified/fast assembly 'kits'. Not the same as the original kits. I liked the originals as it gave me the ability to easily make changes where I wanted to or needed to. Do they even offer a true kit anymore? I'd rather not take a rtr model and carve it up and throw away the money spent on the rtr piece.
OK. Once again I have to interject the reality of economic factors into this discussion.
What a manufacturer keeps in the line and what he of ahe doesn't has more to do with what sells and what doesn't than it has to do with accuracy. And it is sales that keeps one in business and not what is the most accurate. Besides, how many new people can one sell a particular prototype to once the market has been saturated?
Obviously, one will take that shell and decorate it with the markings of other railroads (even those that never operated that particular version) to increase the marketability and appeal of any particular model. So it isn't always accuracy that sells.
LD357 wrote: I remember as a young modeller seeing those super detailed or scratchbuilt a\c and armor models at my LHS and wishing I could do that. I would go to my LHS and ask ''do you have x,y or z detail or figure or whatnot?'' after a few years the owner asked if I ever tried making my own ''x,y or z'', he said it's not as hard as you might think, try it. That was over 20 yrs ago and since then I've learned so much it'd take a whole notebook to write it down! I forget sometimes that there are those who don't have the benefit of 20+ yrs. of modelling, and a workbench that consists of 3 desks and a painting table, with a complete arsenal of tools and supples. In this day of packaged everything and ready made detail packs and decals, the art of scratchbuilding isn't practiced by the younger generation it seems. The questions like ''where can I get whatnot?'' are all too common. Sometimes I also bite my tongue and sit on my fingers when I read a question that seems like the answer to, is as obvious as the nose on your face........but perhaps the person asking, just plain doesn't know, and without the knowledge of how to ''scratch it'' want to know where to buy it. I suppose all we can do is try to help and suggest what they might try.
You are right that youngsters and some of us oldsters don't scratchbuild. Why? There are lots of reasons including lack of skills, knowledge, tools, etc. But theone that no one seems to talk about is lack of time. And before you go off that it takes time to be a model rairoader, read what follows.
Back in the 1950s and 1960s many of us came home from school, did our homework (or at least tried ) and then did other things before bed time. Nowadays kids come home with backpacks of a size that would make a Normandy Invasion Paratrooper blush and spend hours doing homework on subjects some of us never learned until we got to college. The result is that the kid doesn't have time to do much else.
Many of us also spend lots of time at our jobs to make money to support our families and hobbies. We often leave early and come home late. The result we often don't have much time left to do anything else.
So we are all pressed for time. Scratchbuilding takes lots of time even if it is easy. So many of us take the easy route by buying ready to run stuff. That's we there is a market fro pre-built stuff like locomotives, cars, buildings, roadways, automobiles, trucks, buses, etc.
Sure you can make it yourself for less, but if time is a precious comodity, you will most likely trade money for it.
tomikawaTT wrote:Part of the reluctance to scratchbuild is the pervasive idea that we are never supposed to fail. The late G. Harry Stine, an old school engineer, blamed the endless studies and 'paralysis by analysis' endemic to government projects on a culture clash between old-line engineers and the people who held a microscope to their work. The engineers wanted to build/test/fix, and felt that the design wasn't valid until there were a few broken prototypes to study. The politicians and media pundits (most of whom don't know which end of a torque wrench goes on the nut) consider ANY failure, no matter how minor, to be waste of taxpayer money - and are quick to trumpet same from the rooftops. Is it a surprise that the same attitude has filtered through most of present-day society?
davidmbedard wrote: You have a painting table? Lucky.......David B
You have a painting table? Lucky.......
David B
I am indeed one of the fortunate ones. I have a full basement to utilize as a hobby room and I seem to be a magnet for peoples ''slightly used'' furniture, as a result I have three office desks that I converted to work benches, the painting table is a drafting table rescued from the scrap pile with a lazy susan turntable on it. Makes an excellent painting table and I don't have to cover anything on my work benches if I want to use the airbrushes. I also have a good bit of down time during the winter when the weather is bad and we can't work......so I go down to the basement....turn on the tv and heat and hobby away those crappy winter days and nights.
While you make a valid point, though, I will explain its raison d'etre:The idea behind posting that and its sister questions was that even the experienced modelers will argue amongst each other in a posted thread about how something should be weathered, perhaps leaving the newbie (or even a moderate) modeler confused, info overloaded, and exhausted.
When i was younger i choose the worst colors for any building. I chose to paint a building gold then to cover that mistake up i choose th paint the whole building light blue. Now at 25 i have people telling me that they can never do as good of job at painting buildings as i do. It all takes time to develope your own skills and abilities. Over time my choices in paint and colors got better. I Have kitbashed verious models before but i have not got into scratch building yet. I am doing some military n scale modules that need specialised building so i will start scratch building soon. My dad got me into model railroading when i was young and we both have our srtenghts and weeknesses. I like designing scenes and making buildings while he likes doing doing trackwork better.
I feel your frustration all the time when talking to people at train shows. They see a scene that has stuff i kitbshed or altered to make the scene and ash where they could buy it. When i tell them how to make it they always say that they could never make it because they are no good at doing that stuff.
Its funny how stuff that took me 5 minutes to alter people want but only if they could buy it.
So to sum up this, and dozens of other similar threads, the consensus is that there are two types of model railroaders, the RTR crowd, and the scratch build crowd. Each is the antithesis of the other and never the two shall meet. A hard wall exists between the two philosophies and each has nothing to give the other, and neither can blend. POPYCOCK!
Why does each new modeler feel the need to relearn how to build a wheel? Older, more skilled modelers can teach you how. If you "suck" at building, then find somebody who doesn't and ask them how you can improve your skills. You might be surprised how easy it is to do with the correct knowledge, and how little of a tool kit it takes to build a model from wood and plastic scrap.
This is my complete tool kit. I can build anything and everything with this.
I do not buy into the "consensus". We don't give a kid a car and tell them to start driving and hope they pick it up by trial and error. We don't have to let the knowledge of the expert modeler go to the grave with him either. Ever go to a model railroad show or exhibit? Sure we all have, usually at the mall. Ever ask an exhibitor how they built this or that, gotten a phone number or what? I cannot and will not tolerate a complacency of mediocrity. Granted some modelers will never move beyond being adequate, some have a true gift, some do not, but the basic skills can be learned by anybody. There are plenty of old timers out there that are more than willing to share experience.
There is no shame in building a crappy model while on the steep part of the learning curve. There is only shame in giving up before trying. I have gone back over the years and rebuilt models when my skills improved to the point where my initial efforts no longer satisfied me. The goal is to move forward and learn from the mistakes of others, not from your own.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"