Is it real or not

[FastTracks]

Well, there are some photos on this website of a weathered P2K 0-8-0 which doesn't "look right" at all, so why doesn't this bloke follow his own dictates?

Cheers,

Mark.

 

You mean this one...

 

I'm curious what it is you feel dosen't "look right" about it?  I tried to get it as close to the prototype images I was working from...

 

 

Its close, but probably not dirty enough.

 

[marknewton]

It doesn't look right to me because your weathering is what I call "artistic" - it appears to me to be based more on model railroad examples than the prototype photos you posted. I feel that for realistic steam weathering, you ought to follow a prototype example of the same type as your model, and have some understanding of what causes specific weathering patterns.

I say this because in my experience, steam loco weathering patterns are determined both by their operating environment, and by specific design features and accessories they carry. The CN U-2-a under the coal stage is a good example.

On your USRA 0-8-0, there were a number of things that I thought were unrealistic:

The verical streaks on the tender sides - often seen on models, but what would cause them?

The top deck of the tender has no spilled coal or cinder deposits, no water or rust marks, or footprints.

The tops of the engine running boards have no cinders, oily patches or footprints.

The rust streaks under the rear sandbox - what caused that?

The white streaks under the turret, safety valves, the front sandbox and on the valve chests - ditto. These are also commonly seen on weathered models, but what are they supposed to represent?

The sides of the ashpan the same colour as the bottom of the firebox.

No oily/greasy areas around the power reverse, valve motion, crosshead, slidebars or air compressor.

Having said all that, I would stress that I'm not doing so to have a dig at you. I would like to gain some insight into your thinking about weathering steam locos.

All the best,

Mark.

[FastTracks]

Hi,

 There is quite a bit of spilled coal on the top of the tender on the finished model.  Some of the images were taken before this was added, the latter images show this...

Streaks on the side of the tenders were very common as filling the tank often resulted in water being spilled over the side of the tender dragging the coal dust along with it creating streaks.  Studying prototype images will reveal this effect, which is why it is an oft modeled detail, I wasen't simply copying other modelers techniques as is implied.

Rust streaks around the sand dome are also common, and can be seen on the second image above.

Patches of white seem to appear almost anywhere on hard working steam engines, a feature I have observed from prototype images and have recreated on the model.  Why is the front of the stack white on the engine in the first image?  No obvious reason for that, perhaps it was a helper engine, who knows.  A story can be made to justify just about any dirt, or lack thereof in the real world.

All good points though, and ones I will use in future weathering projects, thanks for the feedback.

Can you post some images of your work?

 

[fireman216]

I actually have been reading the magazine that those pictures are in....about railroads during wartime....

[SteamFreak]

I actually have been reading the magazine that those pictures are in....about railroads during wartime....

They can also be viewed in the Library of Congress galleries on Flickr. Interesting stuff.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/sets/72157603671370361/?page=11

[rolleiman]

...The point being that it is not necessary to model everything in perfect detail — trying to replicate every rivet in order to create something that looks real; all that needs to be created is the illusion.

 

The steam engine picture above is a great example of this. The blurred image looks like a very simple model, almost toy-like… but it is the real deal. If we could shrink the prototypes down to our scale, I’d wager they just wouldn’t look right.

Sometimes it is best to just make models that “look right” and let the rivet counters, well… count rivets...

Once again, one man's opinion is presented as though it's a universal truth, with a bit of gratuitous rivet-counter bashing thrown in.

Well, there are some photos on this website of a weathered P2K 0-8-0 which doesn't "look right" at all, so why doesn't this bloke follow his own dictates?

Cheers,

Mark.

Who's opinion are you referring to? 

[Southwest Chief]

Not exactly on topic, but you can sort of do the opposite of the photos in question.  Take a real photo and place your model in that photo:

[highhood63]

  A story can be made to justify just about any dirt, or lack thereof in the real world.

All good points though, and ones I will use in future weathering projects, thanks for the feedback.

Can you post some images of your work?

 

 

 Funny how marknewton  dropped from the trhead after this....

[scottychaos]

Nice one Magnus !!! I loved the early replys from the guys who didn't realise it was a setup ! LOL

Cheers,

Warren

and now we have two layers of people who didnt get it..

first the quick replys from people who didnt read all the way to the bottom of that page,

then, even after its fully explained in this thread, you now have people who havent read this thread completely and post things like " are you dumb? Those are so not real." at the top of PAGE 2!! ;)  after its been explained it detail!

He missed it TWICE!

Scot 

[vsmith]

Hi,

 I love it!

This is the second time on this forum my pictures were used to fool unsuspecting readers.  The results the last time were exactly the same, although not as many stuck feet into their mouths.

 

I took the shot above with a crappy Nikon D80 from our 70th floor hotel room window in Detroit last summer when we were at the National Train Show. 

I have a gallery on my new site with a few more examples of this technique that anybody can do with Photoshop....

Galleries can be found here.

  Hahahaha!

Reminds me of the old saying "When all else fails, Read the instuctions" or in this case, read the entire article!

Says alot about 2 things, either A; how readily we accept things without really examining them for fact, or B: an awfull lot of us have really really crappy cameras!

 

[dehusman]

and now we have two layers of people who didnt get it..

  There is also a third layer of people who don't get it because they don't agree with the position.  A really badly focused picture of a poorly detailed model doesn't make the model any better or more detailed.  The only thing that makes the model better is making the model better.  Looking at a 3 in square picture on a CRT for 30 sec may cause people to not notice the lack of detail on a locomotive, but switching with the engine in person, full (model) size, in focus and in good light, it will be easy to separate the detailed engine from the non-detailed engine.

There are other arguements for not worrying about superdetailing things that are way more effective.  There are many techniques that can be employed to make things look more realistic that don't involve superdetailing things (like weathering and employing a uniform minimum level of detail, and lessening the differences in appearance between the more detailed and the less detailed). 

Dave H.

[marknewton]

Streaks on the side of the tenders were very common as filling the tank often resulted in water being spilled over the side of the tender dragging the coal dust along with it creating streaks.
That's the usual explanation offered, but it 's a furphy, nothing more than a bit of received wisdom How often have seen a loco being watered and observed the crew let the tank really overflow that much? Overfilling the tank is something real steam crews try very hard to avoid. It wastes water which is usually treated, hence it costs money to replace. The railway will go to some lenghths to discourage the practice. And as a steam loco crewman, if you're standing on the tender deck and you overfill the tank, your shoes/boots get wet, which is something else you like to avoid.

But assuming you're careless enough to overfill the tank, the water doesn't spill over the side of the tender. The tender deck is typically inset from the top of the sides about three inches, and there are drains on either side of the filler hatch - they're plainly visible in your photo. The water sloshes around the deck until it drains. The only instance where it would spill down the sides is on a Vanderbilt or flush-deck tender - see below.

The only time I would expect to see streaks of coal dust on the tender sides is if the crew used the deck hose to wet the coal pile to keep the dust down. Then you get minor streaking down the sides below the bunker. Once it's dried most of it blows away when you're moving

Studying prototype images will reveal this effect, which is why it is an oft modeled detail. I wasen't simply copying other modelers techniques as is implied.
I've studied numerous prototype images, and many more prototype locos in the flesh, and it's an effect I've rarely seen - other than on models, which is why I made the comment. It's interesting that of the images you posted, two locos have Vanderbilt tenders, one has a flush-deck tender, and yet none of them show the streaking you've modelled.

Rust streaks around the sand dome are also common, and can be seen on the second image above.
The "rust streaks" looks more like sand blowing through from a defective trap to me. Sand domes work better without large amuounts of moisture in them or their contents, which is why you rarely see rust around them on working engines.

Patches of white seem to appear almost anywhere on hard working steam engines, a feature I have observed from prototype images and have recreated on the model.
"Patches of white" appear in specific places on engines for specific reasons, as I noted previously. When you bung them on anywhere at random as you have done it detracts from the realism of your weathering.

Why is the front of the stack white on the engine in the first image? No obvious reason for that, perhaps it was a helper engine, who knows?
I know a couple of really obvious reasons. And I'd love to know why you imagine a helper engine would have a white smokestack?

But a quick look at the photo shows that it's not white - what you're seeing is the relatively clean graphite finish applied to the entire smokebox. The back of the stack and the smokebox immediately below it are discoloured by soot, but the front is fairly clean. There are at least three likely reasons for this;

The loco has only recently been lit up;

The loco has a soft exhaust and is prone to smoke trailing;

and/or;

The last bloke to climb up there and oil the bell managed to transfer most of the soot to the back of his clothes.

A story can be made to justify just about any dirt, or lack thereof in the real world.
Yes, it can, but without any real understanding of the processes involved, your story will lack credibility.

Can you post some images of your work?
Yes I can, even though your apparent intention is to imply that I can't express an opinion without having first presented my credentials for your approval. It matters nowt, I'll play your game.

These days I have only one model steam loco which is weathered. A poor quality photo of it here:



The rest of my steamers I try to keep as clean as possible, as the passengers seem to prefer them that way, and they're much nicer to work on than dirty engines. That's me wearing the black beret in the first photo.





I have some weathered rollingstock, but since I model a prototype where even the coal hoppers get washed on a regular basis, any weathering I do is very subtle. I tend to concentrate my efforts on weathering my track and structures.

















All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

  A story can be made to justify just about any dirt, or lack thereof in the real world.

All good points though, and ones I will use in future weathering projects, thanks for the feedback.

Can you post some images of your work?

 

 

 Funny how marknewton  dropped from the trhead after this....

You were saying?

I post to individual threads as and when I get the opportunity.

Mark.