So....tell me about the Pennsy...

[locoi1sa]

  Hey Dave

 You forgot to mention that the PRR had the second largest navey in the world. Only the US owned more boats than them. And you cant forget about the airplane. If the ICC didnt stop them they would have had trucking, Pan Am, and most cruise ships on the water. The PRR had fingers in a lot of cookie jars. I havnt heard in a while but Executive airline had a fleet of lear jets that had keystone markings just a few years ago.

  And while were on it someone mentioned the T1. Although a failure by some acounts dont foget the freight sister to it. The Q2 was a powerhouse on wheels. Had more than 6000 HP at speed and tractive effort more than the bigboys. Too bad high maintenance cost put her out to pasture when the diesels started roaming the rails. T1 failure, I remember reading about a highspeed brake test done around crestline that had a T1 doing 140 MPH with the dyno car attached to test some new brake shoes. Unofficial speed record.

      Pete
 

[wm3798]

Devil's advocate time...

The Penn Central was a disaster more because of the Penn than the Central.  It was all the Pennsy's side hustles that diverted them from running the railroad, and it's Red Team/Green Team mentality that kept the company from ever fully integrating.  They pushed out Perlman, whose career shines with the exception of his days as a pawn at the PC, leaving Stuart Saunders in charge, who ultimately killed himself over his collossal failure.

The Central was in trouble by 1968, but if it had been allowed to merge with the C&O in 1960 like it wanted to, those troubles would likely have been avoided.  The fact is, by 1964, when the N&W swallowed the NKP and Wabash, all the "good" mergers were done, leaving the PRR and Central as the only wall flowers left at the dance.  So they held their noses, and embraced each other on their way to oblivion.

Lee 

[Thommo]

Hello to all, excellent topic.

Few days ago I watched old "All aboard" episode about PRR in transition period. Very few steamers, much more diesels.
Two freight trains are filmed zooming throuh station with three GP9's on point. I didnt know that Pennsy run them long hood front! Two RS3 are also filmed on one freight.

Also Centipedes are presented in helper roles. EMD F and Blw. Shark units are on the freights, E's on passengers.

And, Strasburg GE 44t makes an appearance (it is mentioned that it is ex-Pennsy unit, only letters are added, color is Pennsy) switching PRR boxcar to main. It was especially interesting to me, because I have Bachmann HO model of PRR GE 44tonner, and I've never known was it fictional or not in PRR colours!

Few more questions, can you say a few words about:

- how was 4-track main used (2 pass. tracks, 2 freights, or not?)
- Gallitzin tunnel
- Strasburg - railroad or museum?
- Baldwin Centipedes on PRR
- Did Pennsy had 0-6-0T steamers that Bachmann had in Spectrum lines?

Thanks!

[BRAKIE]

Speaking as former PRR brakeman I will tell you up front it was anything but "The Standard Railroad Of The World" unless you want to call grimy,poor running locomotives(many had rust holes in the carbody) "standard" or cabin cars with rusted out holes in the floor,corners and by the doors "standard".

Then there was the miles of main line track that seen years of "deferred maintenance".How about passenger cars that had mechanical problems to include heat and A/C failure?

What does this have to do with modeling the mighty PRR? A lot when it comes to modeling the locomotives and track since our model PRR should reflect the PRR as it was.

 

[Dave Vollmer]

Brakie's right on the maintenance point.  I've argued that we don't model mismanagement in general, but an obvious point where we must is when deferred maintenance is the result.

Of course bad maintenance must be reflected in our models...  If I were modeling the Pennsy in the 60s, I'd have a lot more weathering and a lot more weeds on the mains.  Photographic evidence from the 50s shows that the Middle Division was still well maintained, although lines like the Northern Central through York, PA, were already mostly gardens with rails through them.

And Lee, I'm not disagreeing at all.  The NYC had done an awesome job streamlining itself prior to PC merger.  They'd done the track reductions, eliminated rider humps, clearned up the beuracracy, installed CTC, etc.  It was sad to see the 20th Century Limited go, but it had to.  Merging w/ the PRR was like hanging a boat anchor around their neck.

Maybe merger with N&W would have been better for Pennsy...  who knows?  But much like the Roman Empire, by the 60s it had rotted through-and-through at the management level and had failed to look to the future.  It would likely have dragged any merger partner under.

The Pennsy did most of its innovating in the first two decades of the 20th century, and then was content to sit back with what by the 50s had become antiquated practices (rider humps, manual interlockings each with a dedicated tower, etc.).

But the Pennsy mains of the 50s (which I model) at least appeared outwardly to prosper, much moreso than the 60s...  But if I continue with plans to expand my era to span 1956-1968, I will certainly need to keep this all in mind.

Clearly were the PRR perfect, she'd still be here.  Maybe she'd be one of the Big Class I lines...  But no, she's gone.

But the glory of model railroading is that we don't have to suffer the mismanagement and corporate short-sightedness; we can enjoy the accomplishments instead.

[Dave Vollmer]

Hello to all, excellent topic.

Few days ago I watched old "All aboard" episode about PRR in transition period. Very few steamers, much more diesels.
Two freight trains are filmed zooming throuh station with three GP9's on point. I didnt know that Pennsy run them long hood front! Two RS3 are also filmed on one freight.

Also Centipedes are presented in helper roles. EMD F and Blw. Shark units are on the freights, E's on passengers.

And, Strasburg GE 44t makes an appearance (it is mentioned that it is ex-Pennsy unit, only letters are added, color is Pennsy) switching PRR boxcar to main. It was especially interesting to me, because I have Bachmann HO model of PRR GE 44tonner, and I've never known was it fictional or not in PRR colours!

Few more questions, can you say a few words about:

- how was 4-track main used (2 pass. tracks, 2 freights, or not?) _Yes, for the most part.  Track asssignments changed depending on where you were, but they generally included 2 passenger and 2 freight tracks.
- Gallitzin tunnel _There were 3 tunnels at Gallitizin; the Gallitzen, the Allegheny, and the Portage
- Strasburg - railroad or museum? _The Strasburg Rail Road is just that; a fully-functioning steam passenger railroad.  Across the street is the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, not directly affiliated.
- Baldwin Centipedes on PRR _Originally designed for passeneger service, then re-geared for freight; eventually used as helpers (snapppers in Pennsy-talk) at Horseshoe Curve - also saw serviceout of Thorndale, PA under the wires.
- Did Pennsy had 0-6-0T steamers that Bachmann had in Spectrum lines?  _Yes, they did.  Similar, anyway.  Most were gone by WWII, although this one was photographed in Wilmington, DE in 1948

Thanks!

[ndbprr]

I grew up in Philly near the corridor and was about twelve before I realized there were engines other than GG1s.  Now I live in the Chicago area and regularly visit the mills in NW Indiana.  I have watched the Ft. Wayne division go from two tracks to no tracks in the Gary area. I used to sit at the PRR Gary station (long gone) where the tracks crossed US 20 and wonder what it was like when the Blue Ribbon Fleet came through town westbound.  Twenty six named passenger trains running on each others yellow signals as dawn broke heading for Chicago.  As soon as one cleared the headlight of the next one appeared down the track.  Add extra sections being pulled by double slotted K4s and T1s or the Broadway with the swoosh up front coming off a run from Ft. Wayne that more than not exceeded 100mph for at least part of that run.  I was born too late. 

[dti406]

And, Strasburg GE 44t makes an appearance (it is mentioned that it is ex-Pennsy unit, only letters are added, color is Pennsy) switching PRR boxcar to main. It was especially interesting to me, because I have Bachmann HO model of PRR GE 44tonner, and I've never known was it fictional or not in PRR colours!

Thanks!

The PRR had a number of GE 44 Tonners.  As usual the numbers were scattered over the numbering system.  One of them was renumbered to 9999.  The Pennsy liked them as, per union rules, they could be operated only by the engineer without the need of a brakeman, which is why the 44 Tonners sold so much better than the 45 Tonners as they needed a fireman.  The GE 44 Tonner replaced the A5 0-4-0's although they could not haul as big a train.

Also, the best engine on the Pennsy was a copy of the C&O T-1 2-10-4 which became the PRR J1-J1a.  

Another set of leased engines were a number of Santa Fe 2-10-4's that were used to haul coal with the J1's from Columbus to the coal docks in Sandusky.  

Regarding the Race Track between Crestline and Chicago, the Pennsy tested the N&W J-1 Northern and the J-1 reached a sustained 112 mph. Not a bad feat for an engine with 70" drivers.

Rick 

[andrechapelon]

The Q2 was a powerhouse on wheels. Had more than 6000 HP at speed and tractive effort more than the bigboys.

No, what it produced was more horsepower than the Big Boy (over 7500 vs. 6200). As for tractive effort, the Q2 was rated at around 101,000 lbs (sans booster) vs. Big Boy's 135,000 lbs. On test in 1948, the Q2 was found to be inferior to the N&W A, using more coal to do the same amount of work. IIRC, the N&W was owned by the Pennsy. They should have contracted their locomotive design work out to Roanoke.

http://tinyurl.com/3aofjg   (page down)

Andre

 

[selector]

Andre, there is some controversy over the interpretation of that report.  For those on the N&W, there was little doubt that the Duplex and Q2 were not indicated for the terrain and work to be done.  In fact, the Y-Class engines, superb as they were, rarely ran above 40 mph.  The Q and the T were high-steppers designed for the Pennsy's grades and work rating.  It would be unfair to rate a 80" drivered T1, for example, against a 72" J in hilly terrain that the Pennsy had not taken into account when designing the T.  The Q's 69" drivers do beg the question, though, I have to admit and wonder.  Perhaps its stroke and pressure ratings were meant for higher speed, where the HP could do its work.  The Class A did it's "thing" between 40 and 60 mph, give or take, and developed it best horsepower nearer to 45 mph if I recall correctly.

[Thommo]

Thanks, Dave, I downloaded "TKM Special Winter 2008 Edition.pdf", but my viewer reports problems fith the file, and does not show pages 10 through 64, they are blank. Other pages are OK.

Is it my viewer, or is the file corrupted?

[ndbprr]

I have no problem with those pages.  I'd suggest downloading it again and viewing it before you save it to be sure.