I'm at a crossroads with my layout construction and I'm trying to decide whether to go with DC or DCC.
Here's an overview: It's a two-rail O-scale point-to-point shelf switching layout with approximately thirty-five linear feet of track. The track plan is such that it really isn't possible to have two locomotives running at the same time where both would be doing meaningful work. So I don't need DCC to operate multiple locomotives concurrently and I would rarely have a two-engineer operating session, either. Given my limited spare bedroom space I won't be expanding this layout later because it is already at it's maximum size. So the only way that I can justify DCC is for the sound/headlight capabilities that DCC offers.
With DC all I really need is one big block (with multiple feeders) and possibly a siding or two that are blocked that can be switched off so one of my two locomotives can be parked. This setup could easily be used for a DCC conversion later.
The cost of an appropriate sized single throttle walkaround DC system will run me anywhere from about $150 for an MRC unit to about $200 for a unit from GML. That seems to be significantly less than a DCC system with the power to handle O-scale.
There are a number of posts here and on other sites about the problems people often have with the configuration, setup and troubleshooting of DCC. I've been an IT guy my entire career and I really don't want to have to troubleshoot even more stuff at home!
So given the parameters I noted above my question is will I really be missing out by going with DC versus DCC? And did any of you try DCC and step back to DC? Fellow shelf engineers feel free to chime in!
I am going to go against my own preference, and contrary to loathar, and say that what you describe sounds like a simple DC system. Why complicate things more than necessary just for the sake of lighting? If you want sound-equipped engines, Blueline should help you out. The rest is just normal blocking. I don't know how the lights work with Blueline...sorry.
Of course, if the lighting thing is something you have digging under your saddle, then for the same price as that nice DC throttle, you can be fully DCC. Along with it would come prototypical, hands-off, acceleration and deceleration. Sounds tuned the way you like 'em, too. No need for an extra box to control sounds.
Of course, that tends to mean more expensive locomotives with the associated decoders.
What's a guy to do?
There are some advantages I see for DCC in your situation. You can have several locomotives sitting around the layout, and only move what you want, when you want, without a lot of short stub blocks and DPDTs. Some throttles allow you to set center off, so back and forth switching operations are easy.
Soundwise, you can go either way, DC or DCC. With a Quantum Engineer, you can run BLI (non-Blueline), P2K, and Atlas locomotives in DC, and Genesis and Roundhouse locomotive sounds with the controllers that come with them.
If it wasn't for the very high cost of DCC [over 1,000 dollars once you figure in the decoders with sound and the duty from the states etc etc] for my two engines I would do it. But I have been using DC blocking for decades and it works for me as it has for millions of others.
So if it is costs factor then go with DC but if you expect to win a lotto in the future then wire it so that you can add dcc later. Which actually just means setting aside sections or blocks like you would for dc anyhow. DCC people use blocks for troubleshooting, so in the end the wiring is almost the same.
Hope that helps. :)
Maybe some day your goals will change.
Right now you are choosing between a cassete tape player and an MP3 player. With one you have an upgrade path. The other is a dead end.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I find switching is easier in DCC. I use Digitrax which offers a "center off" choice in their direction switch. By setting the speed at a low rate (5-10 MPH) I can switch just using the direction switch, since my engines all have had the CV's set to allow a decent amount of momentum in accelerating and decelerating. Turn the direction switch to forward and the engine goes from stop to slowly accelerating towards a car. Turn the switch to neutral and the engine coasts and stops just as it couples to the car. Turn to reverse and the engine slowly begins backing up with the car. Add in sound to this and it's pretty neat, especially since you can set up a sound decoder to make the sound louder when the engine is working harder, like first starting to move.
That with the advantages it offers in sound and lighting would make me think DCC would be the way to go.
For your needs a MRC ControlMaster20 will work for you..However..If you want sound and fancy lights then go with DCC.
Frankly I would go with the CM20 for one locomotive operation.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
rfross wrote: The cost of an appropriate sized single throttle walkaround DC system will run me anywhere from about $150 for an MRC unit to about $200 for a unit from GML. That seems to be significantly less than a DCC system with the power to handle O-scale.There are a number of posts here and on other sites about the problems people often have with the configuration, setup and troubleshooting of DCC. I've been an IT guy my entire career and I really don't want to have to troubleshoot even more stuff at home!
rf:
I have highlighted the major reasons I use DC. I can also roll my own throttles with $5 or so of components. I'm not an IT guy, but I deal with enough infernal electronics already. The only reason I use electricity at all is because you gets no respect pushing the trains around and going "choo choo". (Don't laugh too hard; this was how a notable British OO gauger ran a lot of his trains in the early days; not because there was no other way, but because he enjoyed it. It apparently gave him the feeling of riding the train.) DCC seems to be a hobby in itself and I got enough of those. :)
As for upgrades and cassette tapes (what about my records, Chip?), I think that can be overestimated. As people pointed out, you'd best have blocks anyway, and you might as well have SPDT or DPDT block switches rather than SPST since they cost the same, so you'd really just be out the cost of a throttle or two, which you could Ebay or keep for testing. You can always add decoders, or order your engines with them. Besides, the way upgrades work is that the new tech comes out, and you upgrade everything, and then the new-new tech comes out and all your stuff is dino age junk, just as if you'd never upgraded in the first place. But you IT guys know all about that.
Just tell everybody you're waiting for technology to achieve absolute perfection and then you'll adopt it all.
fsm1000 wrote: If it wasn't for the very high cost of DCC [over 1,000 dollars once you figure in the decoders with sound and the duty from the states etc etc] for my two engines I would do it. But I have been using DC blocking for decades and it works for me as it has for millions of others.So if it is costs factor then go with DC but if you expect to win a lotto in the future then wire it so that you can add dcc later. Which actually just means setting aside sections or blocks like you would for dc anyhow. DCC people use blocks for troubleshooting, so in the end the wiring is almost the same. Hope that helps. :)
A thousand dollars for DCC and 2 decoders? You must be getting the "Brass" decoders.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
As hard headed as I am, I fought DCC for years. Then one day I decided to give it a try and I will never go back to DC. The wiring is so much simpler, no more control blocks, and no more locomotives going either one way or the other determined by the track polarity. Then I went further. The locomotive lighting with DCC is awesome! Ditch lights, mars lights, beacons, rule 17 dimming lights, you name it, there's a light for it when using DCC. Want even more? Now there's sound in the locomotives. Try that with a traditional DC system.
If I were you, I'd go ahead and put in the DCC. Another way to look at it is that the cost won't be much greater putting in a DCC system compared to putting in a DC system with all the extra block toggles, power packs for cab control, and the hours spent putting in all that extra wiring that will be needed for a DC layout. To tell you the truth, I wish I would have put in a DCC system a long time ago. I missed out on a lot more fun with the trains trying to stick with a DC system for all those years. ....chuck
I'm sort of in the same boat as you are. i've heard and read alot of stuff about people having problems with this or problems with that, but i've heard great things about it too. i guess some of it depends on if you want to mess with some of programming and stuff that goes along with it.
what i've decided to do is wire for DC and then change over later if i want ( i think it's easier to do it that way instead of doing DCC and switching over if you don't like it). also, a buddy of mine thought that by having the blocks wired in from conventional wiring could make it easier to detect problems in DCC because you can isolate portions of the layout. that might be more beneficial on a larger layout though.
if there are older locomotives you like you would have to do the necessary work to convert those too. right now i have about 45 locos on the roster, more than half of them are older locos that are not DCC ready. i'm not sure if i want to do all that work yet.
there's no doubt that DCC is easier to wire and operate when everything goes right, but how big of a headache can it be when it doen't? that's the question I'm asking myself.
For what you are describing, a pure DC setup will work just fine. Cost will depend on how much power you will need to run each of your 2 engines, and if you want a 'walk-around' throttle. For DC, you are talking $150-200 for as good throttle. Add to that the block wiring so you can 'park the other engine.
How much 'power' do you need for each of those engines? If these are older 'O' scale engines, I can see an each drawing a 3+ amp load. If they are some of the newer engines, they are usually in the 1-2 amp range.
Starter DCC systems like the NCE 'Power Cab'(1.7 amps) or Digitrax 'Zephyr'(2.5 amps) will cost you about $150-160 at most on-line dealers. Heavy Duty decoders(3 amp minimum) are priced anywhere from $60 to $130 each. The NCE unit may need a 'Smart Booster'(3 amp) costing about $100(including a PS). The Digitrax 5 amp booster will run about $150. Now, this extra cost of DCC will allow you to add 'sound' at a later date. If you are not concerned with extra features that DCC allows, the lower cost DC option may be what you need.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I really appreciate everyone's input and a pretty even balance of responses to my question. After giving your responses some thought and thinking some more about what is important to me here's what I plan on doing:
I'm going to go ahead with DC and wire it for blocks and with my relatively simple trackplan I will end up with about a dozen individual blocks. I'm going with a single power supply/throttle with walkaround capability since I can really only run one train anyway. If I purchase the MRC Controlmaster20 online (I found it as cheap as $129.95 with a Google search), which I have considered and at least one of you recommended, I can do the entire layout including the DPDT toggles and all the wiring for no more than $225. If I decide to go semi-custom with a unit from GML it will run a little more once I option it out. And if any of my railroading friends really want to have operating sessions on my layout I can purchase another throttle/power supply later.
With this plan I can get the railroad up and running quickly at a reasonable cost, actually be able to run a train and not have to deal with DCC quirks and issues at the outset. Then if I decide to move up to the latest DCC technology down the road I'll be able to do that with the existing wiring and can sell off the power supply/throttle to recoup some of my cost.
Thanks again everyone.
Bob
cwclark wrote: The locomotive lighting with DCC is awesome! Ditch lights, mars lights, beacons, rule 17 dimming lights, you name it, there's a light for it when using DCC. Want even more? Now there's sound in the locomotives. Try that with a traditional DC system.
The locomotive lighting with DCC is awesome! Ditch lights, mars lights, beacons, rule 17 dimming lights, you name it, there's a light for it when using DCC. Want even more? Now there's sound in the locomotives. Try that with a traditional DC system.
cwc:
Let's see...with pre-WW2 steam...I don't have those, or those, or those, and I'm not sure about those...and as for sound, I'd rather have it as quiet as possible so the mental sound adapter can work unimpeded. Now, if DCC could generate an instantly-dissipating and harmless tower of black smoke, produce holographic flying flags, or send a flagman out to protect the train, I'd be tempted.
On the other hand, I can certainly see how this would improve a modern diesel's appearance. Much more interesting with the ditch lights and beacons, for sure, and certainly more realistic for modern times.
Now, if the diesels add a few more lights, perhaps a few strings of Christmas chase sets around the windows, and some Coney Island-type lightbulbs everywhere, and a flatcar carrying a full orchestra, they just might begin to approach the power and presence of the smallest and most insignificant steam locomotive. ;-)
cwclark wrote: As hard headed as I am, I fought DCC for years. Then one day I decided to give it a try and I will never go back to DC. The wiring is so much simpler, no more control blocks, and no more locomotives going either one way or the other determined by the track polarity. Then I went further. The locomotive lighting with DCC is awesome! Ditch lights, mars lights, beacons, rule 17 dimming lights, you name it, there's a light for it when using DCC. Want even more? Now there's sound in the locomotives. Try that with a traditional DC system. If I were you, I'd go ahead and put in the DCC. Another way to look at it is that the cost won't be much greater putting in a DCC system compared to putting in a DC system with all the extra block toggles, power packs for cab control, and the hours spent putting in all that extra wiring that will be needed for a DC layout. To tell you the truth, I wish I would have put in a DCC system a long time ago. I missed out on a lot more fun with the trains trying to stick with a DC system for all those years. ....chuck
Chuck,I agree the "modern" lights are neat but, there are those of us that don't need ditch lights because we model the era before ditch lights came about in the 90s.
However..A yard switcher sitting in from of the yard office idling with its lights on dim is cool looking..Even tho' one doesn't need DCC to accompish that I think that sound and lights is better in DCC use then the QE control box in DC use.
davidmbedard wrote: fsm1000 wrote: If it wasn't for the very high cost of DCC [over 1,000 dollars once you figure in the decoders with sound and the duty from the states etc etc] for my two engines I would do it. But I have been using DC blocking for decades and it works for me as it has for millions of others.So if it is costs factor then go with DC but if you expect to win a lotto in the future then wire it so that you can add dcc later. Which actually just means setting aside sections or blocks like you would for dc anyhow. DCC people use blocks for troubleshooting, so in the end the wiring is almost the same. Hope that helps. :) ...and where do you get this figure? A Zephyer costs 230 Canadian plus your decoders (20-25 bucks a shot Canadian). David B
...and where do you get this figure? A Zephyer costs 230 Canadian plus your decoders (20-25 bucks a shot Canadian).
David B
David I seriously would LOVE to know where you can get a tsunami sound decoder for under $100 dollars let alone 30 bucks.
PLEASE tell me where so I can get them and resell them on ebay LOL. I would make a fortune. :)
fsm1000 wrote:David I seriously would LOVE to know where you can get a tsunami sound decoder for under $100 dollars
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=1039&products_id=48657