FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

[jfugate]

Ron:

Oh, lots more to come!

Just busy working on the last of the DCC video, taking the 4th holiday, etc.

I hope to post the next installment on using DecoderPro to do speed curves sometime this week.

[n2mopac]

Sounds great. I look forward to it.

Ron

[chateauricher]

bump (this topic seems to get lost quickly)

[CP5170]

bump

[Don Gibson]

Joe

Based on your experieces - if you were starting over - what FEATURES would you put at the top of your list?, and possibly in order of importance

An example might be 'a continous control knob'. For me a wireless control would be #1.

QUESTION: If a Diesel engineer has eight - sixteen throttle notches, why are 24 or 101 speed steps needed, or desired for modeling? - especially if one has variable Momentum.

Don Gibson

[jfugate]

Don:

I'm assuming you are talking about throttles here.

Wireless is certainly high on the list, as well as a throttle with a nice big knob, and not a keypad. I prefer the speed control knob to be linear, not continuous ... this really helps when running helpers. "Okay, moving to 1 o'clock on the throttle" so the helper can follow suit.

Real throttle notches would be *wonderful* for a realistic operation feel to running diesels. The closest thing like this right now for DCC is RailDriver:
http://www.raildriver.com/rdcontrols/desktop.php

[n2mopac]

I' m just bringng thins topic back to the front and hoping to learn more soon. [:)]

Ron

[chateauricher]

back to the top...

[jfugate]

Been putting the finishing touches on my new DCC DVD that starts shipping in the next few days. It's 102 minutes packed with step-by-step how to info on DCC. Not a lot of theory -- more here's what I've learned in 12 years of using DCC. Sort of a video version of this clinic. If you are interested in the video, see this link.
NOTE: Use coupon code MR0722j and save 10 bucks.

After the DVD ships, plan to post more info on consisting on here as promised.

Only so many hours in the day, and I'd kinda like to work on the trains once in a while, too.

[johncolley]

Joe, et al, I have not had a lot of experience with various brands of DCC but I have Prodigy Advance for home use, and will be adding Digitrax capability to my modules for Free-mo compliance. I have used NCE at a friend's operations based layout and experienced the problems you mentioned, plus a peeve with me is the fact that you can be running and the throttle will time out, then you make a change and nothing happens...wait for your memory to click in and frantically hit the button, if it's not too late! It seems to me that is bad design! Question is do other brands have that same problem?

[CP5170]

I have not had this problem with Digitrax.

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Been putting the finishing touches on my new DCC DVD that starts shipping in the next few days. It's 102 minutes packed with step-by-step how to info on DCC. Not a lot of theory -- more here's what I've learned in 12 years of using DCC. Sort of a video version of this clinic. If you are interested in the video, see: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains-set1-vol3b.php
NOTE: Use coupon code MR0722j and save 10 bucks.

After the DVD ships, plan to post more info on consisting on here as promised.

Only so many hours in the day, and I'd kinda like to work on the trains once in a while, too.[xx(]

Time constraints are perfectly understood ny most here I think and certainly by me. We will just keep this topic near the top and look forward to seeing more when it comes. Thanks again Joe.

Ron

[jfugate]

Jon:

EasyDCC used to have annoying delay with wireless throttles, but recent releases of the EPROM have included upgrades that solved the delay issues.

That said, it is true with EasyDCC that if you need more than 8 wireless throttles at once (large layouts, in other words), you need to have throttles start sharing frequencies, which can also introduce delays in wireless throttle response.

I need more than 8 throttles on the Siskiyou Line, so the way we address this issue with EasyDCC is run "mixed mode" with 5 dedicated frequencies and 3 shared ones.

We use the 5 dedicated throttles for yard switchers and locals, and the through trains get the shared throttles. An occassional slight delay in throttle response on a through train is hardly even noticed, and if noticed, rarely matters.

In short, EasyDCC wireless works very well, and I remain quite pleased with it. The latest announcement from CVP is that they're coming out with wireless handhelds that include a display and programming capability from the handheld. With this latest development, EasyDCC will now be more directly comparible to NCE and their wireless "ops mode programming" capability from their handhelds.

P.S. I don't include Digitrax in my wireless system comparison because of the need to have a "throttle bus" (LocoNet) with plugs around the layout so you can plug in the wireless unit to acquire locos. With NCE and EasyDCC, you can forget running a special throttle bus around the layout ... you don't need it if you are totally wireless.

Lenz, with their cell phone wireless option, I consider a bit of a black sheep offering. Although it works, there is no feedback displayed, and I want a throttle with a knob. Using a keypad for control feels too 21st century to me. That's what happens if you got into the hobby in the 1960s, I suppose. [;)]

[wt259]

Joe, the tip you gave earlier on soldering feeders to the track worked great!! Thanks, it really improved the looks where I used it. The only question is, where were you when I soldered the first 2/3's of my layout? [:D] Just kidding. Thanks for the tip.
Wayne

[kenkal]

John, I must have missed something. What are the NCE problems you experienced? I'm trying very hard to decide between NCE and Digitrax and this could affect my decision.
& what does "timeout" do? Do you mean before hitting enter? Or the throttle just stops responding? Or? Thanks. Ken

QUOTE: Originally posted by johncolley

Joe, et al, I have not had a lot of experience with various brands of DCC but I have Prodigy Advance for home use, and will be adding Digitrax capability to my modules for Free-mo compliance. I have used NCE at a friend's operations based layout and experienced the problems you mentioned, plus a peeve with me is the fact that you can be running and the throttle will time out, then you make a change and nothing happens...wait for your memory to click in and frantically hit the button, if it's not too late! It seems to me that is bad design! Question is do other brands have that same problem?

[jfugate]

kenkal:

I believe John was referring to the problems I have had in the past with wireless reception on NCE. But that was in the very early stages of NCE wireless, and the latest I've heard is that reception issues with NCE wireless are now largely a thing of the past.

To be fair, EasyDCC also had reception issues with the wireless throttles when I first got them, but a few months later CVP released an EPROM upgrade that solved the reception issues and EasyDCC reception has been rock solid ever since.

It was just after the EasyDCC upgrade to rock solid reception that I first got to experience NCE wireless operation on some larger layouts and things were pretty buggy, to say the least.

But happily, that all seems to be ancient history now ... and if anyone with an NCE system is having wireless reception issues, then you need to contact NCE because I think they have a fix for you. [:D]

[jfugate]

kenkal:

To anyone trying to decide between NCE and Digitrax, let me post a few of my personal observations about these two systems, and which I would pick. Now realize, I use EasyDCC, so hopefully, that would make me a bit less biased when comparing two systems, neither of which I own.

The big advantage of NCE's system to me is the user interface. NCE's design is exceptionally user-friendly, while Digitrax's design is less so. Digitrax has made good strides in the user-friendly area, but NCE still has them beat hands down, IMO.

To me, one real test of user-friendly is how close you need to keep the manual so you can refer to it for less routine tasks, and how obvious is it for a newbie, from just looking at the handheld, to figure out how to do a more advanced function.

Take consisting, for example. Look at even the most current Digitrax handheld, and you don't get a clue how to proceed to make a consist. Now look at the NCE handheld.

NCE has a consist section, with buttons SETUP, CLEAR, ADD, DEL ...

Pretty clear how to create a consist just by glancing at the handheld.

Also, the standard NCE system comes with the computer interface built in, right out of the box (as does EasyDCC). With Digitrax and Lenz, you have to buy more stuff if you want to hook a computer to your system (and with handy free decoder programming software like DecoderPro, you *want* to connect your PC to your system, trust me).

The one major downside to the NCE system has been the entry cost ... steep to say the least, compared to a Digitrax Zephyr system -- until now. With the ProCab product from NCE, the cost of entry for NCE has now dropped considerably.

The other consideration when chosing a system is to look at what other modelers in your area are using. Getting local support, being able to share cabs, etc. is all very handy, so that should be a major factor as well.

If cost is the major deciding factor for a DCC system, then I usually recommend Digitrax. If ease-of-use and feature set out of the box is the number one deciding factor (and cost is secondary), then I usually recommend NCE or EasyDCC.

[SilverSpike]

Joe,

Now that has to be one of the best 'pros and cons' explanations I have ever read in the case of Digitrax. I think now that I am going to give a serious look at both NCE and Easy DCC as viable options.

Thanks,

Ryan

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,

A couple of months ago, even though I already had a Digitrax Chief with a DT100 throttle, I was considering the NCE system, just because of the throttle shape and size of the display, although I wasn't too thrilled with the thumbwheel speed control. After downloading the manual, I determined that putting a consist together would require a lot of button pushing. Since the hand unit can only control one loco at a time, first I have to select a loco, enter it as the lead unit, select a second loco, enter it as the rear unit, select the loco to go in between the two previously selected locos, hit add, select another loco to go between the last one selected and the rear unit, hitting add, all the while having to hit recall if I wanted to change any of the other loco settings, or move the consist. If this sounds confusing, it's because it confused me. With the DT400 hand held unit, I could select the lead loco with the left throttle, select the next loco to go in the consist with the right throttle, move it to couple to the first, hit the add button, select the third loco with the right throttle, move it to the consist, hit add, and so forth. Seemed much easier than the NCE hand unit. Went to the train show in Eugene and one of the display layouts was using the Digitrax DT400. It seemed much easier to use and wasn't as bulky as I had expected, plus the person who let me try the DT400 said he thought the NCE hand unit felt cheaply made. Now I haven't actually tried the NCE unit, but based on that experience, I purchased the DT400 hand unit, and have been happy with it.

By the way, has Vol. 3 actually shipped? Should I expect it to arrive Saturday or Monday, since mail only seems to take one day from here to Portland?

Bob Hayes

[jfugate]

Bob:

Volume 3 is done and undergoing final *sweetening* work today and tomorrow to get the sound and video to look its absolute best. I expect the DVD production (they burn them on a duplicator array device as they ship them) and shipping to start on Monday.

MyMemoirs Video on the order and shipping side is a little one-horse outfit with some ocassional part time help, my wife (the full-time staff person) is talking about bringing in the part-timer to help with volume 3 shipping on Monday. With subscriptions, there is a mass quantity of volume 3 orders to ship ... they estimate it will take a week to ship all the domestic and Canadian orders.

Last time, they shipped the domestic orders first, A-Z, then the Canadian and foreign ones. This time, they're talking about starting in the middle of the alphabet and working out, with the Canadian orders included with the domestic ones.

So everyone gets an "equal" chance at being first or last, across the series, since when each one is released, it takes the better part of a week to fill all the orders. [swg]

[MudHen_462]

Joe,
I have just ordered your #4 video, and have enjoyed reading the posts on this clinic (it has been very informative...).

I am just getting back into MRR'ing after a 40 year hiatus, and I only have a small 11' X 7' L-shaped area for my my new (DCC) layout. The layout will only be accessible from the front side only. I have an inoperatible spinal injury that limits my mobility, so in order to deal with the layout's access problem, I plan to use Bachmann E-Z track, so I can have it in sections and manuver it into place.

My question is: Using the above track, should I solder the rail joints as I "build", or will the "locking" feature of the E-Z track provide enough of a connection that joint soldering is un-necessary ?

Thanks, Bob (Iron Goat)

[jfugate]

IG:

I haven't really used E-Z track, perhaps someone else on here could comment.

Even on the best of situations, however, dust, rail gunk, oxidation, and ocassional corrosion will fight to make rail joiners less reliable over time, even if physical contact is still solid.

In other words, best long term reliability will probably come from a soldered connection rather than just a mechanical one.

Depending on how good your dexterity is, you might consider soldering a whisker wire at the track sections on the inside rail base around the joiner. This will allow you to remove the track easily at the joiner later if needed. If taking the track apart later won't be a concern, then soldering most rail joints will give you bullet-proof reliability.

But you still need to leave expansion gaps every 10 feet or so. For those locations, soldering a fine "whisker" wire around the rail joiner and leaving a 1/32-1/16 inch gap will give the track room to expand and contract with changes in temperature and humidity (and changes in benchwork expansion/contraction).

[selector]

I have used EZ track almost exclusively, Gentlemen, and am happy to report that, after nearly five months of running it on my layout, including electronically operated switches, I have had no problems with it. I soldered no connections, and did ballast with the wet glue method.

I believe that you should experience no problems as long as the pieces go together as intended, tighti***o each other, and as long as you don't err by misaligning the joiners to the extent that one rail end is higher than its mate. The joiners seem quite positive, to me. Other readers will undoubtedly report that they are not terribly reliable, but I have yet to see this aspect. Possibly the firm bed that I have for the track is a help; if the track can't flex under the weight of the trains, there is really no way the properly assembled track should let you down.

[rrinker]

Interesting. I had an oval of EZ Track from a Hogwart's train set I bought, plus I found some 22" radius sections at a local train show. I used this to build a test track, and had no end to contact problems even though I used extra power feeders. The sections all locked tightly together, yet at the farthest spots from the power feeders the locos would noticeably slow down.
This was the steel track with the black roadbed. I would assume the nickle-silver version is MUCH better.

--Randy

[kenkal]

Joe, thank you for the additional input on deciding on a system. I have read the manuals from both systems (Digitrax really isn't that hard to read, contrary to the many comments I've seen).

I like Digitrax dual cab controller, that the system seems to be everywhere --in clubs, home layouts and LHS's. I'm more than a little concerned that NCE doesn't seem to be be as widely used and available and do worry about them continuing.

I like NCE for the reasons you mentioned and that I find the handheld cab comfortable and there seems to be a lot less buttons to worry about (accidental presses, errors) than the Digitrax.

I like that the NCE radio unit has 2 way communication vs. Digitrax 1 way which requires a plug-in of the radio unit (huh?) to select the loco (as I understand it).

Since I will need a 5 amp system, they aren't cheap to begin with and so at that level, the cost difference isn't horrendous between the NCE and Super Chief.

I monitor the Yahoo users groups and find many negatives about Digitrax customer support and just about all positives about NCE's. Of course, this "could be" because Digitrax appears to have a LOT more users and units out there, resulting in more complaints about service, and "could" explain why NCE, supporting fewer customers, appears to do better.

Although I have never done any decoder programming, and aside from using Decoder-Pro for either system, NCE seems much easier to program the decoders than Digitrax.

And finally, from what I've read, Digitrax doesn't upgrade their software (they appear to go to new units -- read as $$$) whereas NCE does upgrade their software with a new E-Prom for $5 or so. However, I think I read somewhere that this allows Digitrax to be on the leading edge and NCE will always trail along. Being along in my years, this isn't a huge concern of mine -- I just want to run my trains and either unit appears to do that "almost equally" well.

So which am I going to choose? Probably NCE, but the jury is still out. But, since most track with feeders is down and I'm now ready to run the bus wires, time is running out for me. [:(] I know I could likely use either system and be happy with it. Sigh.........

BTW Joe, I really enjoy your articles and responses to this group. So very informative, and CLEAR! A heart felt Thank you!

Originally posted by jfugate

kenkal:

To anyone trying to decide between NCE and Digitrax, let me post a few of my personal observations about these two systems, and which I would pick. Now realize, I use EasyDCC, so hopefully, that would make me a bit less biased when comparing two systems, neither of which I own.

Huntley, IL

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