SpaceMouse wrote: Hi Joe,I have decided to take on a problem. We have DCC on our club layout and no one here seems to know a thing about it. It is an older Digitrax system set up about 6 or 7 years ago or so, designed by Digitrax. There is a base unit, an Empire Builder and two power boosters. The thing is a mess. Our club tries to be as accommodating as possible so when the layout was wired it was set up to be both DCC and DC. Of course, once the DCC system was running they never used the DC--as far as I can tell, ever. But the systems has problems. There are times when the several engines are in a power block that the digital throttles will automatically slow down. I mean if you are running at 55, without touching the controls, the digital readout goes down 55..54..53..to 0 in about 3-4 seconds. If you keep trying to run, the decoders will reset or in the case of one Broadway, need a hard reset to function. There are three reverse loops with PM4's to work them, but they don't work. We use toggles to control the polarity. The quirks to the sysem are too many to mention.To the club the system is like the Steve the hedge on Over the Hedge. All Hail Steve. Nobody is allowed to touch it, and if they did, they wouldn't know what to do. So someone has to get a handle on it. The Digitrax manuals are next to useless if you don't have a context in which to read them. So the question is, how do I proceed?
Hi Joe,
I have decided to take on a problem. We have DCC on our club layout and no one here seems to know a thing about it. It is an older Digitrax system set up about 6 or 7 years ago or so, designed by Digitrax. There is a base unit, an Empire Builder and two power boosters. The thing is a mess. Our club tries to be as accommodating as possible so when the layout was wired it was set up to be both DCC and DC. Of course, once the DCC system was running they never used the DC--as far as I can tell, ever.
But the systems has problems. There are times when the several engines are in a power block that the digital throttles will automatically slow down. I mean if you are running at 55, without touching the controls, the digital readout goes down 55..54..53..to 0 in about 3-4 seconds. If you keep trying to run, the decoders will reset or in the case of one Broadway, need a hard reset to function. There are three reverse loops with PM4's to work them, but they don't work. We use toggles to control the polarity. The quirks to the sysem are too many to mention.
To the club the system is like the Steve the hedge on Over the Hedge. All Hail Steve. Nobody is allowed to touch it, and if they did, they wouldn't know what to do.
So someone has to get a handle on it. The Digitrax manuals are next to useless if you don't have a context in which to read them.
So the question is, how do I proceed?
Number 1 - I will guarantee that peopel are not release their locomotives after they are finished running. Thus the loco they are running is ALSO selected on another throttle (or rather remembered as such by the command station). That 'other' throttle is set to speed 0. So while they are merrily chugging along, a command is seen from that phantom throttle to go to speed 0. You can experiment with this on your home system - you cna select the same loco on two throttles and they both have control, but ONLY of they are both DT throttles with encoders will it actually work properly. If one is a DT400 and one is a Zephyr console, the potentiometer in the Zephyr (or the UT throttle) will overrule the encoder in the DT throttle.
In the back of the Super Empire Builder and Super Chief manuals there is a section on various resets of the command station. You are probably long overdue for a reset. If you only have the original copy of the manual, download the newer version from the Digitrax site. The instructions on resetting start on Page 107. If you don't have any consists permanently created, do the full OpSw 39 reset to clear EVERYTHING. This will probably solve 99% of your problems.
The next issue is power for the throttles. Are the connections using UP5's, or did they just get plain phone jacks? Too many users at the same time will overload the Loconet and result in the throttles getting insufficient voltage, and they start acting flakey. Using the actual UP panels gives a conveninent way of adding more power to run the throttles. Relying on batteries in the throttles isn't reliable unless you maintain careful control to be sure that all users have a good battery. This isn't a Digitrax exclusive - all the major systems require power supplies after you exceed a certain number of cabs.
There really isn't anything flakey about the DB150. The biggest limitation of the Empire Builder is no program track. For a club setting you may need more than 22 locos, and a dedicated program track sure would be a good idea so someone doesn't accidently program the locos of half a dozen members at the same time (surely this has happened already), so an upgrade by adding a DCS100 command station is probably not a bad idea.
If you connect your Locobuffer to the club system and use the Slot Monitor in JMRI you will be able to see the phantom slots in use, and also clear them without resetting the DB150. But my guess is no one has ever done this since it was first installed and so a real reset is probably in order.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
On the PM4's - if they aren't reversing properly, there are a couple of things. First,t here should be a heavy wire connected between the Ground terminals of all the booster and the PM4's. It is the potential relative to this ground that is used to detect the short and reverse the phase on the track. Also make sure the PM4's have the correct power supply. These are NOT track powered, they need a power supply connected. And make sure the gaps are all open at all points of the reverse loop. If a gap has closed at one end or the other it won't work properly.
The PM4 isn't very adjustable, that's why Digitrax replaced it with the PM42. It could be an issue with the trip time of the PM4 vs trip time of the booster it is connected to. Or the trip current. It depends on what happens when you negotiate a loop - if the PM4 doesn't reverse, is the booster's breaker tripping instead?
Also, are the PM4's wired properly? The wires to the track connect to different terminals depending on if the section is configured for just a breaker or as an auto-reverser.
You could used a simpler device like the AR1 on each reverse loop and keep the PM4's to just be breakers.
Randy,
I agree with you - We have had the same issues at our club. We have DSC200 command stations and DB200 boosters with UR91 wireless throttles. Even the 'Chief' series default to 22 trains - you have to change the CV in the command station to get 120 trains. We had folks use up 'slots' and not 'un-dispatch' from their train. The system should clear up unused 'slots' after some time, but if the throttle is not 'zeroed out', this will not happen. It is amazing how many 'slots' can be tied up with failed MU attempts and just unpluging your throttle, picking up you engines and going home! The starter system manual for the DB150/DCS100/DCS200 is on-line and has a table of the CV values in the command station to clear out the 'stack'.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
rrinker wrote: Number 1 - I will guarantee that peopel are not release their locomotives after they are finished running. Thus the loco they are running is ALSO selected on another throttle (or rather remembered as such by the command station). That 'other' throttle is set to speed 0. So while they are merrily chugging along, a command is seen from that phantom throttle to go to speed 0. You can experiment with this on your home system - you cna select the same loco on two throttles and they both have control, but ONLY of they are both DT throttles with encoders will it actually work properly. If one is a DT400 and one is a Zephyr console, the potentiometer in the Zephyr (or the UT throttle) will overrule the encoder in the DT throttle.
I would say you are right on the money.
I'll look in the books.
They are UP3s. I don't think anyone uses a battery in their throttle.
The club members call the Digitrax system an Empire Builder. After listening to talk of DCS100s and DB150s, what I seem to recall is that we have a DCS100 and two subservient DB150's. That's what I recall, but I'd have to double check. We do have a dedicated program track. I should say we gave Digitrax the specs of the club, the layout, etc. and they designed the system. They also held the club members hands through the process.
If you connect your Locobuffer to the club system and use the Slot Monitor in JMRI you will be able to see the phantom slots in use, and also clear them without resetting the DB150.
I don't have a clue what you are talking about.
But my guess is no one has ever done this since it was first installed and so a real reset is probably in order. --Randy
That will be my first order of business.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
rrinker wrote: On the PM4's - if they aren't reversing properly, there are a couple of things. First,t here should be a heavy wire connected between the Ground terminals of all the booster and the PM4's. It is the potential relative to this ground that is used to detect the short and reverse the phase on the track. Also make sure the PM4's have the correct power supply. These are NOT track powered, they need a power supply connected. And make sure the gaps are all open at all points of the reverse loop. If a gap has closed at one end or the other it won't work properly. The PM4 isn't very adjustable, that's why Digitrax replaced it with the PM42. It could be an issue with the trip time of the PM4 vs trip time of the booster it is connected to. Or the trip current. It depends on what happens when you negotiate a loop - if the PM4 doesn't reverse, is the booster's breaker tripping instead? Also, are the PM4's wired properly? The wires to the track connect to different terminals depending on if the section is configured for just a breaker or as an auto-reverser. You could used a simpler device like the AR1 on each reverse loop and keep the PM4's to just be breakers. --Randy
I think that part of the reason they are not working is that they are sitting on the bench. No one has been able to decipher the manuals to get them properly set up.
jrbernier wrote: Randy, I agree with you - We have had the same issues at our club. We have DSC200 command stations and DB200 boosters with UR91 wireless throttles. Even the 'Chief' series default to 22 trains - you have to change the CV in the command station to get 120 trains. We had folks use up 'slots' and not 'un-dispatch' from their train. The system should clear up unused 'slots' after some time, but if the throttle is not 'zeroed out', this will not happen. It is amazing how many 'slots' can be tied up with failed MU attempts and just unpluging your throttle, picking up you engines and going home! The starter system manual for the DB150/DCS100/DCS200 is on-line and has a table of the CV values in the command station to clear out the 'stack'.Jim
Thanks. I'll double-check the components of the system and download the newer manuals.
As usual, Randy has posted correct and very useful info. If I may impose and add a couple additional comments...
SpaceMouse wrote: rrinker wrote: The next issue is power for the throttles. Are the connections using UP5's, or did they just get plain phone jacks? Too many users at the same time will overload the Loconet and result in the throttles getting insufficient voltage, and they start acting flakey. Using the actual UP panels gives a conveninent way of adding more power to run the throttles. Relying on batteries in the throttles isn't reliable unless you maintain careful control to be sure that all users have a good battery. This isn't a Digitrax exclusive - all the major systems require power supplies after you exceed a certain number of cabs.They are UP3s. I don't think anyone uses a battery in their throttle.
rrinker wrote: The next issue is power for the throttles. Are the connections using UP5's, or did they just get plain phone jacks? Too many users at the same time will overload the Loconet and result in the throttles getting insufficient voltage, and they start acting flakey. Using the actual UP panels gives a conveninent way of adding more power to run the throttles. Relying on batteries in the throttles isn't reliable unless you maintain careful control to be sure that all users have a good battery. This isn't a Digitrax exclusive - all the major systems require power supplies after you exceed a certain number of cabs.
UP3's can/should also be powered. The instructions are here: http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/UP3%20Panel%20Inst.pdf
It shows a UP3 in combination with a UR9x, but multiple UP3's would be powered the same way.
SpaceMouse wrote: rrinker wrote:If you connect your Locobuffer to the club system and use the Slot Monitor in JMRI you will be able to see the phantom slots in use, and also clear them without resetting the DB150. I don't have a clue what you are talking about.
rrinker wrote:If you connect your Locobuffer to the club system and use the Slot Monitor in JMRI you will be able to see the phantom slots in use, and also clear them without resetting the DB150.
A LocoBuffer is an interface device between a computer and the LocoNet, and JMRI is software that allows you to use that interface to good advantage.
Randy's reference here is to the system of memory "slots" that Digitrax command stations use to keep track of active locos/throttles. As he mentioned earlier, the CS will think a loco is still active, and therefore keep it's slot active, if the loco isn't properly dispatched or released. JMRI's Slot Monitor tool will let you display the slots and clear the ones you select, without resetting the entire CS.
http://www.rr-cirkits.com/
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/index.html
Steve
P.S. The Slot Monitor is only one of JMRI's many tools and abilities. In a situation as you've described here I could see JMRI being a very useful addition.
Stevert wrote: As usual, Randy has posted correct and very useful info. If I may impose and add a couple additional comments... SpaceMouse wrote: rrinker wrote: The next issue is power for the throttles. Are the connections using UP5's, or did they just get plain phone jacks? Too many users at the same time will overload the Loconet and result in the throttles getting insufficient voltage, and they start acting flakey. Using the actual UP panels gives a conveninent way of adding more power to run the throttles. Relying on batteries in the throttles isn't reliable unless you maintain careful control to be sure that all users have a good battery. This isn't a Digitrax exclusive - all the major systems require power supplies after you exceed a certain number of cabs.They are UP3s. I don't think anyone uses a battery in their throttle. UP3's can/should also be powered. The instructions are here: http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/UP3%20Panel%20Inst.pdfIt shows a UP3 in combination with a UR9x, but multiple UP3's would be powered the same way.
I'm thinking they have to be powered. I've never had a battery in my DT400.
SpaceMouse wrote: rrinker wrote:If you connect your Locobuffer to the club system and use the Slot Monitor in JMRI you will be able to see the phantom slots in use, and also clear them without resetting the DB150. I don't have a clue what you are talking about. A LocoBuffer is an interface device between a computer and the LocoNet, and JMRI is software that allows you to use that interface to good advantage. Randy's reference here is to the system of memory "slots" that Digitrax command stations use to keep track of active locos/throttles. As he mentioned earlier, the CS will think a loco is still active, and therefore keep it's slot active, if the loco isn't properly dispatched or released. JMRI's Slot Monitor tool will let you display the slots and clear the ones you select, without resetting the entire CS.http://www.rr-cirkits.com/ http://jmri.sourceforge.net/index.html SteveP.S. The Slot Monitor is only one of JMRI's many tools and abilities. In a situation as you've described here I could see JMRI being a very useful addition.
Okay, now I get it. I have a locobuffer and Randy knew it because he made it. So I download the software onto my wife's laptop, bring it and my locobuffer in, and fire that sucker up. Thanks.
SpaceMouse wrote:I'm thinking they have to be powered. I've never had a battery in my DT400.
By default, the LocoNet is powered from the command station, and that power is made available to the throttles via the UPx. However, too many throttles are more of a drain than that default LocoNet power can handle. You can experience problems if it drops too low.
To overcome that possibility, Digitrax designed in two provisions for adding additional power.
One provision is power from an external source via the jack on the side of the UPx, and the ability to daisy-chain that power along to additional UPx's via the solder-filled holes in on the back of the board between the jacks.
The other provision is for track power provided by the screw terminals on the back of the UPx.
If you have more than a couple (unpowered) throttles in use at a time, I'd consider powering the UP's by one or the other of those additional sources.
Partof the confusion comes from Digitrax changing the names of the 'packaged' sets as they introduced new components. The Chief and Super Chief both have a DCS100 as the command station, just the throttles that were included were different. Same with Empire Builder and Super Empire Builder. They both came with DB150s. It may be that the club originally bought an Empire Builder set and later added the DCS100. Technically I suppose that turns their set into a Chief plus an extra DB150 - or an Empire Builder plus a DCS100. And if they purchased any DT400's - well then they have Super whatevers. Kind of pointless to use the starter set names with an expanded system with multiple boosters and throttles.
I really don't like the daisy-chain method of supplying the external power to multiple UPs shown by Digitrax. They only run 1 wire between each device and rely on the Loconet cable for the ground side of the connection. A better way is to run BOTH wires from the wall wart around to the various panels, and tap off with coaxial connectors at each one (like a track bus with feeders). You used to be able to get the right plugs at Radio Shack, although that may no longer be true since they pretty much stopped selling parts. Depending on how many throttles you have connected at once, you can power quite a few UPs from a single power supply.
If you haven't already tried it, fire up JMRI on your home system and open up the Slot Monitor and Loconet Monitor tools and start running a train. You'll see all sorts of interesting information as you set speeds, operate functions, etc. If you want really confusing click the raw box on the Loconet Monitor in which case all you will see is the raw hex data. Normally is shows the names and parameters for all commands that are part of the Loconet Personal Edition - messages like "set speed address xyz to 10" insteadof just a bunch of meaningless hex numbers (which you could I suppose look up in the LPE documentation - but that's not really fun). You'll see interesting stuff in the Slot Monitor as well - notably if you try it on your Zephyr you will see there's a lot more than 10 slots. 121 and up are system reserved and which ones get used depends on the command station, DB150, DCS50, DCS100. One is the program track, one is the fast clock, etc.
OK, I better stop or I'll just make you more confused. If you want all the nitty gritty technical details, search Don Crano's posts on the Digitrax group. He's done some really good ones on how the slots work, as well as how decoder motor drives work and other goodies. In the meantime, the keys are to clear the system with the reset, making sure there is sufficient power for your throttles, and making sure the users rememebr to dispatch their locos when they are finished running them so this doesn't happen. In a club setting you might want to make it procedure to clear the command station prior to any operating session, just to avoid wierd issues liek this.
Just an interesting observation here ...
Hearing about Digitrax's loco slots problems sounds like a pretty low-level, under-the-hood sort of issue.
How come I had a Lenz DCC system for 7 years and an EasyDCC system for 7 years-- both of which were used heavily for op sessions -- and not once did any issues come up where I had to fight with under-the-hood issues like "loco slots" ?
It feels like Digitrax and loconet may be the Ferarri of DCC systems, but if I have to keep popping the hood on that system just to keep it running well, I'll take an automatic transmission Chevvy (Lenz or EasyDCC) any day if it will just run and run without me having to keep playing mechanic.
Some of us just want to run trains, not become a computer software/hardware guru.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Joe,
My first car was an Austin Healy Bug-eyed Sprite. When it ran, it ran so fine..., but most of the time it didn't.
I think this Digitrax system meets my needs.
SpaceMouse wrote: My first car was an Austin Healy Bug-eyed Sprite. When it ran, it ran so fine..., but most of the time it didn't.
I have a partially restored AH 100-4. The most beautiful cars ever made IMO. I would love a Bugeye or Frogeye, depending where you are from! Once you have figured out Lucas, the Prince of Darkness you are in good shape.
You know all the old jokes.....
Why do the British drink warm beer? They have Lucas refrigerators.
There are many variations on that joke!!
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
The dualies were fun weren't they. I had a special screwdirver in my glove compartment.
jfugate wrote:Just an interesting observation here ...Hearing about Digitrax's loco slots problems sounds like a pretty low-level, under-the-hood sort of issue.How come I had a Lenz DCC system for 7 years and an EasyDCC system for 7 years-- both of which were used heavily for op sessions -- and not once did any issues come up where I had to fight with under-the-hood issues like "loco slots" ?It feels like Digitrax and loconet may be the Ferarri of DCC systems, but if I have to keep popping the hood on that system just to keep it running well, I'll take an automatic transmission Chevvy (Lenz or EasyDCC) any day if it will just run and run without me having to keep playing mechanic.Some of us just want to run trains, not become a computer software/hardware guru.
The accessability of slot information, and the ability to manipulate that information, is something that probably 90% or more of all Digitrax users never need to be concerned about.
Remember, we're dealing here with an installation that was set up by someone other than the folks who use it on a day-to-day basis, and it sounds like those users may not be following "Best Practices" (ie, not dispatching locos when they're done with them, etc.).
I'm sure that Lenz and NCE also have "Best Practices" that if not followed for an extended period would cause the system to function in a less than optimal manner. However, the difference might be that you have no choice but to reset the entire system when that happens.
On the other hand, with Digitrax you have the option of going in and clearing only the slots which may be causing the problem. Not having to reset the CS means you won't lose command-station consists, routes, etc.
Besides, plugging something into a computer port on one end and the LocoNet on the other, and using a software product with a very-well laid out GUI, hardly puts one in the realm of a software/hardware guru. It's no different than plugging in a digital camera and using the imaging program(s) that came with it. Lots of folks do that every day.
I won't say I've never used the Slot Monitor tool, because I'm naturally curious and just wanted to try it out and see what happened. But I've never had to reset my Zephyr, and I only have 12 slots to play with, not 120. If one actually follows the steps listedin the Digitrax manual (which DO step by step explain which buttons to press to aquire a loco, and what to do when you are done running it), you should never experience any of these issues. I also can't say I never got the SLot Full error message, but that was again because I was testing, I wanted to see if the Zephyr had 10 or 12 slots - it's advertised as 10 but you can select 12 different addresses before it gives the slot full error. I guess the two extras are for the jump ports.
Lately my father in law has been running more trains than I have. He's not technical, and not particularly computer savvy. But he knows how to power ont he system and run any loco he wants. I've never had to reset anything to clear up errors he made that caused wierd operating problems. I walked him through the steps int he beginning and since then he's been on his own. It's NOT a complicated system.
Chip, I'd be tempted to hang two big signs around the club - one showing step by step selecting a loco, and one showign step by step what to do when you are finished with it. Or hold a mandatory trainign class for anyoen who wants to run trains.
There are plenty of large clubs and home layouts that hold regular operating sessions with Digitrax and don't have troubles. And plenty with other systems that do - I was just reading the account of Craig Bisgeier's first operating session on his Housatonic Railroad, and he had the classic not enough cab power problem - and he uses NCE. During testign with 1 or 2 cabs, all was fine, but during the session with lots of cabs plugged in and no extra power source, things got flakey. You can bet by the next session he'll have a few wall warts providing cab bus power and there won't be any problems.
On the Digitrax slots thing ... let me see if I have this right.
I need to "follow proper procedures to select the loco" and then I need to "follow proper procedures to de-select the loco" when I'm done, right? And these procedures need to be in writing somewhere, for all to read?
Interesting ...
I have no written procedures for my operators who used my Lenz knobby throttles, nor do I have any for my EasyDCC operators.
There's gotta be procedures, you say? Okay, here goes:
Lenz (not wireless)1. Plug in throttle2. Dial up last two digits on the cab with the number thumbwheels3. Run train4. When done, unplug throttle
EasyDCC (wireless)1. Turn on throttle2. Dail up last two digits on the cab with the number thumbwheels3. Run train4. When done, turn off throttle
These procedures are so darn obvious all I have to say to a newbie is "use the last two digits on the cab to select the loco" and they're off. And there aren't any "deselect" procedures. And no "loco slot" issues. EVER. In 14 years of using DCC with 40+ locos on the layout and up to 8 trains in motion at a time (some locos with helpers, so two loco consists per train at times).
So Digitrax needs more than this? WHY? Because they designed it to be more complicated, that's why. I'm hearing a "training program" with big signs full of procedures, etc may be needed if a club is using Digitrax.
I never needed a training program for my operators with Lenz and EasyDCC.
I think that spare DB150 labelled "Main" explains why everyone in the club calls it an Empire Builder - that's probably what they started with and then added the other things later.
You might want to check ont he Digitrax site and see if the manuals that you can download are a newer version that the printed ones you have. There have been some improvements made.
I haven't looked at the PM4 manual but I'm pretty sure the pinout on the 44-pin connector is the same as the PM42 - the update was really just a change of the processor chip on the board, the rest of the hardware stayed the same AFAIK. There is at least one diagram int he current PM42 manual showing the layout of the components and how to connect them. I set up a board for my friend I'm helping to wire in hs PM42 and BDL168 - if you look in the pictures and files section of the Digitrax group on Yahoo you will see other people's examples of this, basically a board with some terminal strips labelled and wired to the 44-pin socket. Attach the booster to the inputs and run the track busses to the output terminals, plug in the PM4, and away you go. Right now we just have all the power district busses run back to where the PM42 board will go, but jumpered to one another and ocnnected directly to his DCS100, sort of liek mine is right now. He does have an AR1 connected to his reverse loop which works nicely.
You've never had an Austin Healy have you?
Careful there, Joe,
You're sounding an awful lot like ME!
I picked NCE for my control system because I want to model railroad without having to go through what looked to me like a substantial learning curve. I did read the manual when I first installed the system, but it was a pretty cursory once-over (except the part that told how to install the system - I read that pretty close. Took ten minutes to study). Even programming decoders, I never read through the manual past the part that said "follow the display prompts" or some such thing - I follow the prompts and I'm there in just minutes!
I'm an engineer and Mathematician. I deal with some pretty technical issues all day long, using some pretty user-unfriendly computer software. So I wanted a very user-friendly control system for my layout - work can stay at work - so that's why I went with NCE.
I'm not claiming NCE is better than Digitrax, except that it is for me. Maybe it isn't better for others. That's a personal choice.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
jfugate wrote:On the Digitrax slots thing ... let me see if I have this right.I need to "follow proper procedures to select the loco" and then I need to "follow proper procedures to de-select the loco" when I'm done, right? And these procedures need to be in writing somewhere, for all to read? Interesting ...I have no written procedures for my operators who used my Lenz knobby throttles, nor do I have any for my EasyDCC operators.There's gotta be procedures, you say? Okay, here goes:Lenz (not wireless)1. Plug in throttle2. Dial up last two digits on the cab with the number thumbwheels3. Run train4. When done, unplug throttleEasyDCC (wireless)1. Turn on throttle2. Dail up last two digits on the cab with the number thumbwheels3. Run train4. When done, turn off throttleThese procedures are so darn obvious all I have to say to a newbie is "use the last two digits on the cab to select the loco" and they're off. And there aren't any "deselect" procedures. And no "loco slot" issues. EVER. In 14 years of using DCC with 40+ locos on the layout and up to 8 trains in motion at a time (some locos with helpers, so two loco consists per train at times). So Digitrax needs more than this? WHY? Because they designed it to be more complicated, that's why. I'm hearing a "training program" with big signs full of procedures, etc may be needed if a club is using Digitrax.I never needed a training program for my operators with Lenz and EasyDCC.
Provided you stop your train first, that's all that is required of Digitrax. Hopefully you don't run a loco into the engine house and then leave it run pushing up against the wall. The difference compared to all other sysems (excepting Zimo, Uhlenbrock, and the new ESU system, since I don't know their internal architecture) is that the throttles in Digitrax only send commands tot he command station when you change something. And a periodic 'keep alive' ping. The command station manages all aspects of created and sending DCC packets to each running loco. That's what the 'slots' are for. Each slot store the address and function status for a given loco or consist. This is why the Digitrax radio system can operate in a simplex mode - the only time the throttle needs to hear from the command station is when a loco address is selected and it gets assigned to a slot. After that, the command station never needs send another bit of data to the throttle. The only data flow is the throttle sending new info such as speed, direction, or function. By default, the Digitrax comamnd station will clear an slot that has not been accessed past a timeout period, if the speed is 0. So you don't HAVE to do anything. Adding the one extra step of hitting Loco, Exit just clears them out immediately without waiting for the timeout. It's really no different or more complex and concept than taking a tool off the rack, using it, and then returning it to where it came from. FOr whatever reason, people who have no difficulty doign this with a screwdriver suddenly freeze up when a piece of electronic gear is involved. But it is no different.
A side benefit is less traffic ont he control bus, combined with a faster bus to begin with means plenty of room for extra goodies liek detection and signalling,. SUre withthe others you can just add C/MRI - but unless you have a small layout, you'll have the Loconet run already, if just to connect multiple boosters. And the I/O devices for Loconet are far less expensive thant he C/MRI components. Much as I admire Bruce's work, the parts you HAVE to buy from him, even if you shop the various suppliers for the other things, are just too expensive.
All in all, the whole issue is blown way out of proportion. Most people never see it. I thinkt he only large club that regularly has issues is The Model Railroad Club, Inc, and that is simply because their layout is so big they actually run more than 120 locos There are several large, seriously operated layout using Digitrax, like Ken McCorry, who don;t have problems with lots of operators and lots of trains.
Some day I'd like to call Digitrax and try to speak to AJ and learn his reasoning for the design of the Digitrax command station so I could better explain it. I know I am leaving things out - for one the ability of the ocmputer interface to read the commands and staus of any running loco - the other systems do not rebroadcast the throttle commands, but since there is only one bus with Loconet, the computer interface sees every command sent by every thottle. Not important? Well, in PanelPro I can make a panel that does not allow operators to control DCC turnouts with their throttles by intercepting the switch commands. Can't do that on the others. I know people are working on things liek scripts to blow crossing signals with just one function key, or use throttle functions to operate stationary objects on the layout. All because the computer can 'see' what any throttle does, not just send commands tot he command station.
All in all, the whole issue [regarding loco slots in Digitrax] is blown way out of proportion. Most people never see it.
I guess I've been pretty sensitive to the Digitrax slots thing because my friend Charlie Comstock (who is an Electrical Engineer) has fought with it in every op session he's had on his new basement empire layout. He finally solved it recently by getting JMRI installed and then being able to actually see the content of the slots and manage them on his Digitrax system.
Then a whole discussion around slots develops with Chip and his club's use of their Digitrax system (or misuse of it, with them not being technically savvy).
So it surprises me the slots thing kept coming up with Digitrax and how you need some real technical know-how to solve it -- and I never saw any loco slots issues ever with Lenz and EasyDCC in 7 years of use with either of those systems.
Being a professional web designer, we spend months building mockups of our web pages and review them with users until we've removed as much confusion as possible out of the user interface. You can't expect people to read a manual first to use your web site -- and for the operators on my layout, I don't want them to need a manual and a bunch of written procedures either just to run trains.
Even though most Digitrax users never see the slots thing come up, I've seen it come up now several times and cause more grief with Digitrax than I would have expected. It's only reinforced my, shall we say, less-than-glowing impression of Digitrax's system interface. Good thing many people never see it or AJ would have a major revolt on his hands.
Every DCC system has its quirks, but when a Digitrax quirk rears its ugly head, brother ... is it ugly.
jfugate wrote:On the Digitrax slots thing ... let me see if I have this right.
C'mon Joe, give me a break! Randy's suggestion to post instructions was obviously made in the context of the situation (club mindset) that SpaceMouse is trying to address, and could equally apply to just about anything that should be, or that someone even thinks should be, done a certain way.
Either way, even with the Lenz or EasyDCC you have to take these actions, right? And in the order you listed them? Doesn't that make those actions part of the "proper procedures", whether they're communicated in written or verbal form?
And as far as never having slot issues, well, you're trying to make a no-brainer look like some sort of great revelation. OF COURSE you'll never have slot issues with a system that doesn't use slots. And as has been stated by Digitrax users many times, most Digitrax users will never encounter slot issues, either.
Let's face it, every system design has it's unique "features", and folks have different opinions about them. That point has been made time and time again.
The next time an EasyDCC user posts that they encountered a problem because they forgot to set, or inadvertantly reset a throttle address and had a duplicate, should we all beat up on EasyDCC for it's "feature" that requires that your throttles all have unique addresses?
<sarcasm>
After all, I've never had to set a throttle address, and no throttle address issues with my Super Chief. EVER.
But EasyDCC makes you set unique throttle addresses, and only certain ones can be used for radio throttles? WHY? Because they designed it to be more complicated, that's why.
</sarcasm>
SpaceMouse wrote: Joe, My first car was an Austin Healy Bug-eyed Sprite. When it ran, it ran so fine..., but most of the time it didn't. I think this Digitrax system meets my needs.
That's because the Austin Healy had a Lucas electrical system. Well, it was supposed to be an electrical system. IIRC, the AH also used twin Skinner-Union sidedraft carburetors which were oh, so easy to keep synched up.
Good luck with the Digitrax. Me, I'm going with something else.
Andre
Steve:
Good points.
Just to set the record straight, Digitrax makes a good system and many people are quite happy with it. Digitrax has the lion's share of the DCC system market because their system has good price points and lots of expansion options.
And I also agree every DCC system has its quirks.
But it does appear to me that when people have an issue with some Digitrax quirk, it can be a real doozy. I've wondered why the Digitrax Yahoo group is the largest (by about double) of the DCC system support groups -- is it just because they have the largest market share -- or does the system really need that much after market support?
P.S.
Of course you've never had an issue with slots with a system that doesn't use slots ...
My guess is because the Digitrax system memory defaults are too small (you can change the defaults to be larger -- but why be so stingy with the defaults?), where Lenz and EasyDCC provided more than enough loco assignment memory -- and their loco memory management algorithms do a better job of keeping that loco assignment memory available for use than do the Digitrax memory management algorithms.
OK Joe, I think we get it, you don't like Digitrax.....
When things go wrong with any system they get ugly. Look at all the grief that folks have had over the years with NCE radio systems.
There are very many Digitrax users, more than any other system by all accounts, that quite happily run their trains with one hand on the throttle, the other hand empty with no manual in sight. They go about their simple task of running a loco, making consists, breaking consists and other routine activities without a care. Perhaps it took them 5 more minutes to figure out? Maybe they read the instructions twice instead of once, but none the less the system does the job reliably and well.
You write with great gravitas with tremendous credibility on your side being a professional web designer and expert modeler and all. Perhaps you are right that an NCE system is a faster study and has a more friendly interface? Like many, I chose my DCC system based on a series of needs. I plan on keeping my DCC system and expanding it for many years. After a day, a week, a year with a system, does it really matter that it took 5 more minutes when I got the system to learn how to get a consist running? To some, sure it does. To most of us not at all, and certainly not after a day or so.
DCC systems are not all created equal. DCC manufacturers have different priorities. One thing I like and respect about Digitrax is that they are real innovators. Look how the Zephyr created the market for an expandable entry level DCC system. It took NCE what more 3 years to come out with a competitive system. (Speaking of simplicity and speed of setup the 5 min extra it took me to learn to consist on the Zephyr was more than compensated for in the far simpler initial installation of the device). I also like the fact that Digitrax has always tried very hard to allow any user to expand their system without making things redundant. My 2.5A Zephyr booster is still in use even after adding my 5A booster. Add the 3A booster to a PowerCab and you lose the 1.7A booster the system came with. You know what, the Power Cab and the NCE range are darned good systems. I'm splitting hairs hear to make a point. Constant drilling down on a relatively minor issue to many users can give the impression that something is unusable, when in reality that is not the case. So does it matter next week that it took a PowerCab user 10 more minutes to set the thing up compared to a Zephyr?
jfugate wrote: I've wondered why the Digitrax Yahoo group is the largest (by about double) of the DCC system support groups -- is it just because they have the largest market share -- or does the system really need that much after market support?
I've wondered why the Digitrax Yahoo group is the largest (by about double) of the DCC system support groups -- is it just because they have the largest market share -- or does the system really need that much after market support?
It is because no-one can be bothered to read the manual. No one has figured out how to select a loco when using wireless. People have keep asking how to create a consist because it is so difficult.
Or more likely the fact that Digitrax has far greater market share of DCC installations and offers a significantly greater range of options for detection, signalling and control and also happens to be one of the biggest makers of decoders including now sound decoders.
Simon:
All good points ... and yes, some DCC system manufacturers like NCE are notoriously slow in getting things to market.
Many people praise Digitrax like loconet is some sort of holy grail. My attempt here is to balance the scales with some counter points about the most popular DCC vendor on the market and to pop the bubble of those who think Digitrax can do no wrong.
I've owned Lenz, EasyDCC, and now NCE. I've never owned a Digitrax system, although I've considered it several times. Every time I re-download and reread their manuals, and I revisit playing with their system at a show and at my friend Charlie Comstock's layout, I've reinforced my sense that the Digitrax system is just not for me.
It has too many techno-geek quirks for my taste. I suspect many people would not notice all the little annoying interface design items, but they annoy me. I keep thinking how I would send a web designer back to their office to do it over if they came to me with something like that on a web page.
I'm thrilled when people love their Digitrax system -- I'm serious. DCC is the only way to go with your model railroad. And Digitrax has the significant advantage that when you do hit one of those quirks, there's probably a flesh-and-blood person who can answer your question since they've sold so many systems.
jfugate wrote: Many people praise Digitrax like loconet is some sort of holy grail. My attempt here is to balance the scales with some counter points about the most popular DCC vendor on the market and to pop the bubble of those who think Digitrax can do no wrong.
I think Loconet is a neat concept, but I would hazard a guess that 99% of Digitrax users don't derive any specific benefit from its existence. It has been said several times that it is only with very large installations, or on layouts that are really going to use PC control that Loconet comes into its own. For most normal mortals I doubt there is much to choose from in architecture terms between the systems that would have any impact on daily operations.
I doubt that there are many bubbles to be popped! I think that most Digitrax owners would openly concede that the manuals could be better (Zephyr manual is not too bad). I think most could rattle off a throttle model or two that were far from easy to use. I think most of us would like duplex radio when introduced if it worked as reliably as the current solution. In no way do I think Digitrax is perfect, and I am not sure I know any Digitrax users that would say the systems are perfect.
It is a decent system that is priced well and fulfills many modellers needs.