Finally have my dream layout on paper. It was designed using SCARM. The benchwork, track, and scenery are all under control, but after studying it in detail, I'm convinced I have no idea how to do the wiring. I want to be able to switch between DC and DCC. How can I find a DCC guru to hire to draw out the wiring diagram for me? I don't know how to even start looking. Thanks, Jeff
Just post the plan here, DCC can be easy depending on what you want.
Too old for N Scale I want to be able to switch between DC and DCC.
I want to be able to switch between DC and DCC.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Just out of curiosity, why do you want to do that? It poses a risky proposition that could result in damage to your locomotives. Rich
Just out of curiosity, why do you want to do that? It poses a risky proposition that could result in damage to your locomotives.
He's right. There are workarounds, but they may not be worth it. When I came back to the hobby, I planned to start out with DC, because I had some old engines and was unfamiliar with DCC. I had a small financial windfall and bought a DCC system and a new train. I put in a decoder, disconnected my old DC system and never ran a train with it again.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Too old for N ScaleI have no idea how to do the wiring.
multiple locos on a DC layout are controlled using cab control. the layout is divided into block that a single loco can operate in. size of blocks depend on where multiple locos need to operate
DCC doesn't require any blocks
one approach as to DPDT switch between DC and DCC to switch between a DCC command station and DC throttle and switch all the blocks to that throttle.
seems like a lot of trouble to divide the layout into blocks to dun some DC locos instead of just using DCC
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Unfortunately it's easy to be intimidated by wiring, in part because of all the books and articles on it with a lot of information. But really, it's not that hard. As mentioned, with DCC, it's very easy. You really don't need to even do any separate blocks unless you have a reverse loop, and then with DCC there are gizmos you can put into the circuit to automagically reverse the section.
wjstix Unfortunately it's easy to be intimidated by wiring, in part because of all the books and articles on it with a lot of information. But really, it's not that hard. As mentioned, with DCC, it's very easy. You really don't need to even do any separate blocks unless you have a reverse loop, and then with DCC there are gizmos you can put into the circuit to automagically reverse the section.
gregc One approach is to install a DPDT switch between DC and DCC to switch between a DCC command station and DC throttle and switch all the blocks to that throttle.
One approach is to install a DPDT switch between DC and DCC to switch between a DCC command station and DC throttle and switch all the blocks to that throttle.
That's what I did when I transitioned from DC to DCC. At the time I had something like 15 engines and the idea was to install decoders gradually as my income allowed it. You certainly don't want both systems to co-exist on the layout at the same time - it's better for you to have the layout go entirelly DC or DCC at the flick of a switch. What you don't want is having a loco travel from one DC block to a DCC block. That would fry your decoder.
Here's an example of the wiring that allows you to go from one system to another:
https://tonystrains.com/news/dc-dcc-power-wiring-diagram/
Like many, you will probably end up going DCC 100% of the time. But I can understand your intention of saving these old DC locos - I went through that phase as well.
Simon
Haha. Oops. Couple of updates. First, I typed my original post on my phone, and never spell-checked it to see that I was trying to hire a "furu". I mean "guru". Sorry. Second, I think enough of you have responded negatively that I've given up on DC/DCC wiring in favor of just DCC. My original reasoning was that some of my favorite locomotives are brass and DC, and I don't really want to mess with them to install decoders. My N Scale PRR brass J1 is my pride and joy, and it will suck not being able to run it, but I'd rather park it at the roundhouse than burn it up. Third, I'm posting my plan (if I can figure out how to do it). It was done in SCARM, but I have jpg and bmp versions of the file as well. Don't pay any attention to the right side (steel mill complex), I got that, it's the reversing units and turnouts I'm most concerned about. I can see a thousand places for short-circuits and would have no idea how to begin troubleshooting. And thanks, for all that have responded. Keep the suggestions/advice/warnings coming; I appreciate them all. Jeff
rrebell Just post the plan here, DCC can be easy depending on what you want. How do I post a plan? I don't see how I can upload a file or pic
I have a lot of older locos (including some brass and my favorite steamer a PRR J1 brass n scale) and I don't want to risk damaging them or hacking them apart to install decoders, keep alives, and modern motors. That's honestly the only reason.
I don't think my plan is overly complex (some of you may look at it and laugh at how simple it is, but I'm intimidated by turnout crossovers, the turntable, and the yard. I guess I could just put insulators in all the crossovers and just run straight loops, but I'd like to try my hand at some operations instead of just train watching.
I was in the exact same spot as you. It's VERY easy to get overwhelmed with DCC. Hang in there. One option is you could find a local hobby shop or nearby MR club. Plenty of resources out there, but I can understand the steep learning curve.
To the OP: How many DC engines do you have? If it's only a handful, seriously consider just adding decoders to them and going pure DCC. It would likely cost less than going with both DC and DCC.
If you've got a big roundhouse full of DC engines that still work well, you will have decisions to make. Each engine conversion to DCC will cost between 20 and 100 dollars, depending on desired features, with on-board sound being the big one.
Hello All,
Too old for N ScaleI'm posting my plan (if I can figure out how to do it).
To post an image; photo or JPEG, read the first post in "General Discussions " > How to Post a Photo to the Forums
Many people go with a photo hosting site, I use Google Drive (A feature of my Google(.)com email account.
If you want to use your Google Drive account I can post a link on how to do it.
Too old for N ScaleMy original reasoning was that some of my favorite locomotives are brass and DC, and I don't really want to mess with them to install decoders. My N Scale PRR brass J1 is my pride and joy, and it will suck not being able to run it, but I'd rather park it at the roundhouse than burn it up.
Be aware that not only do DCC and DC don't mix, parking a DC-equipped locomotive on a track with DCC power to it can still do damage.
One clever hobbyist- -with the same conundrum- -decided, rather than relegating his favorite DC locomotive to "Shelf Queen" status, he modeled a railroad history park with his pride and joy as the centerpiece of the display on an isolated piece of track.
This allows you to admire your favorite motive power on your pike, and- -if in future, you want to upgrade to DCC- -there won't be any damage to the electrical components.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Thanks to JJDamnit for great advice and path to upload a drawing of the layout. Again, today it was JD, but all of you have given some great advice and issues to address, so thank you all! I'm glad I decided to post here. Please look at the layout, and see if anyone you know would be willing to do wiring diagrams as a contractor. I looked at Tony's Train Exchange website, and the myriad PC boards doesn't make me feel any less anxious. Thanks again.
If your plan is simple enough you can do both DC and DCC but when you get into advanced DCC stuff like auto reversing blocks and frog juicers, you have to lock them out in DC as they will not work or worse.
Too old for N Scale Please look at the layout, and see if anyone you know would be willing to do wiring diagrams as a contractor. I looked at Tony's Train Exchange website, and the myriad PC boards doesn't make me feel any less anxious.
Please look at the layout, and see if anyone you know would be willing to do wiring diagrams as a contractor. I looked at Tony's Train Exchange website, and the myriad PC boards doesn't make me feel any less anxious.
You essentially have a 3-track mainline - - blue, orange and green - - and a long red siding that enters and exits the blue mainline. The red siding poses no particular wiring issue since it is in phase with the blue mainline. However, if you intend to run trains in both directions on the three mainlines, the crossovers raise issues of reverse polarity. Also, some of those turnouts could be eliminated in favor of double slips. I have a somewhat similar track plan on my layout.
When I get more time, I can come back with a more detailed analysis.
richhotrain wjstix Unfortunately it's easy to be intimidated by wiring, in part because of all the books and articles on it with a lot of information. But really, it's not that hard. As mentioned, with DCC, it's very easy. You really don't need to even do any separate blocks unless you have a reverse loop, and then with DCC there are gizmos you can put into the circuit to automagically reverse the section. True, but depending upon the size and complexity of the layout, he may want to create power districts on a DCC powered layout plus circuit breakers to control the power districts. Rich
True, but depending upon the size and complexity of the layout, he may want to create power districts on a DCC powered layout plus circuit breakers to control the power districts.
This short post by Rich should be noted and considered carefully. My layout was mostly around-the-walls in a 24x24 foot space, with one decent-sized yard and a few smaller ones, plus sidings. I built it all just planning on one big layout with DCC. I later realized that separating the layout into power districts with circuit breakers would be wise, but I still had one overly large section. As I expanded the layout, I added breaker-isolated sections.
It may be tempting to just use one big block with a lot of power, but that can be dangerous. It's safer to set each breaker to 2 or 3 amps than to use a big 8 amp supply for everything, because that's a dangerous amount of power which could all rush to one point. My layout uses 4 circuit breakers plus two auto-reversers which are also breakers.
When you do get a short, it is much easier to find it with a number of breakers because the first steps in fault isolation are already done.
You don’t need to buy and install breakers right away, but it's a lot easier to isolate sections of the track right away and wire them as if you had breakers, but wire them together initially. Of course, if you're creating DC blocks as you go, you will already be isolating track sections.
Thank you for the updates on your progress and posting a track diagram.
It seems that you have decided on DCC only.
Have you considered a DCC system?
I chose NCE because of the way it makes and breaks consists.
The ergonomics of the throttle also was a plus for me.
Even though I use an NCE DCC system most of my decoders are Digitrax.
The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) standards of interoperability ensure that all North American manufacturer's DCC products "play well with others" with different DCC systems.
I also have some European DCC-equipped locomotives that work on two (2) rail systems.
Keep us informed on your progress, keep the questions coming and as always...
When you have two parallel tracks with a crossover, the polarity on each section of track will match. Using red and black lines to simulate rails, the following diagram illustrates this siuation in the left side drawing.
However, if the track loops, there will be reverse polarity where the looped track returns to the point of the crossover, as iillusrated by the two circles in the center drawing. This situation will cause a short.
To remedy this situation, you need to create a "reversing section" with some sort of device to immediate recognize the mismatched polarities and reverse them to match, thereby avoiding the short.
The right side drawing illustrates a full loop. Using circles to illustrate gaps, cuts in the rails or plastic rail joiners, you isolate both ends of the loop, and each end of the loop becomes a separate reversing section. By doing this, the center of that looped track can then use parallel wired tracks with crossovers without causing a short, similar in wiring to the left side drawing.
The most efficient way to wire the end loops, i.e., the reversing sections, is to install "auto-reverser" devices, solid state circuit boards that automatically detect and correct reverse polarities.
There is something curious about reversing sections and that is that one end of the reversing section always has matching polarities with the adjacent non-reversing section. However, once a train has entered the reversing section, the polarity of the rails on the other end of the reversing section no longer matches the polarity of the adjacent non-reversing section.
Moving from left to right among the three drawings in that diagram, if you follow the arrows which represent the movement of the train, you can see where the mismatched polarities occur. For this reason, it is critical that the reversing section be long enough to accomdate the entire train, Otherwise, if portions of the train are still entering the reversing section as the lead loco exits the reversing section, a short may occur.
On your planned layout, you use a number of turnouts to create crossovers from one track to another. This arrangement is ideal because it permits trains to operate in both directions on any of the three mainline tracks. I do this on my 4-track mainline.
However, this requires the use of 8 turnouts on each side of your track plan, using up valuable space and resulting in the formation of the dreaded S-curves which can cause derailments. My solution to these two issues is to replace the inner four turnouts on each side of the track plan with double slips, saving valuable space and eliminating the dreaded S-curves. I have done this on my layout and the result is trouble-free operation. The attached drawing illustrates the two arrangements and the circles identify the position of the double slips.
Man! These three posts are exactly the type of information I need. It makes sense to me now. I knew I'd hit reverse polarity with crossovers and trains running in opposite directions, but I didn't know how to fix it. I think I get it. Now, all I have to do is go back to my plan and see if I can make your drawings match my drawings. Where to place the reversing units is still a concern to me, but I hope now I can figure it out. Great simple drawings for a simple-minded person like me! Thank you. Jeff
Too old for N Scale I think I get it. Now, all I have to do is go back to my plan and see if I can make your drawings match my drawings. Where to place the reversing units is still a concern to me, but I hope now I can figure it out.
I think I get it. Now, all I have to do is go back to my plan and see if I can make your drawings match my drawings. Where to place the reversing units is still a concern to me, but I hope now I can figure it out.
Let me look more closely at your track plan, so I can suggest where to place the gaps.
OK, I took a good look at your track plan.
If it were me, I would place gaps, to create reversing sections on the left side of your layout, immediately above and below the complex of crossovers, just before the curves headed east, so to speak.
On the right side of your layout I would place gaps right after the curves turn south, just before that first crossover.
At the bottom of your layout, I would place gaps just to the left of where that red colored siding branches off the blue colored track.
That would effectively create six reversing sections, two for each of the three mainlines.The advantage of this specific gapping arrangement is that none of the yards or sidings would be in a reversing section. That said, if it were me, I would set up the non-reversing sections of the layout into separate power districts, each protected by its own circuit breaker, such as a PSX unit. Maybe one power district for the engine servicing facility (the gray section where the turntable and roundhouse is situated) and one power district for the siding complex in the center of the layout on the peninsula.
Sorry for so many replies, but it just seems easier to organize this discussion into separate issues.
The best advice is to create reversing sections longer than the longest train. That said, the reversing sections should not be much longer than the longest train in order to have the non-reversing sections as long as possible. If you are operating as a lone wolf, this should not necessarily be a problem. But, if you plan to have multiple operators running trains at the same time, the possibility increases that one train, running on the same track as another train may be entering a reversing section while another train has yet to fully exit that same reversing section. So, keep your reversing sections as short as possible, just longer than the longest train.
While we are on this particular subject, what trips the auto-reverser is the first set of powered wheels on the lead loco. If you are running a consist, the last loco has to exit the reversing section to avoid potential shorts. If you have lighted passenger cars or a lighted caboose, or a "powered" caboose, that last car needs to exit the reversing section. Now, I have some ABBA passenger consists and seven passenger cars, butt none of the passenger cars are lighted or otherwise powered. But those passenger cars have metal wheels, so I have to take those cars into account.
Dang. This is incredible help! How much can I pay you? It's worth every dime! Venmo, PayPal, cashier's check?
Too old for N Scale Dang. This is incredible help! How much can I pay you? It's worth every dime! Venmo, PayPal, cashier's check?
Keep us posted on your progress. That is quite a layout that you are about to build.
Well, to start with the last comment, there's really nothing you can do to 'burn up' a locomotive with DCC. If you completly mess up the installation, the worst that can happen is you fry the decoder. Not the engine.
Second it's not that hard to add a decoder. With older engines, including older brass, you have to isolate the motor from the chassis. You unscrew the motor mounts, put down black electrical tape, or a thin layer of plastic sheet, and use plastic/nylon screws (available at the hobby shop) to screw the motor back into place. Then connect the appropriate two wires from DCC decoder's harness to the motor leads. (The wires are color coded so you know which is which.)
Start by installing a nine-pin decoder harness. Once you believe it's all OK, plug in a basic / inexpensive non-sound decoder and try reading a CV back on the programming track, like the decoder ID. Programming tracks don't have enough electrical power to damage the decoder, so always do the programming track check first. If it can't read it, there's a short or some other problem you need to fix. If it comes back with the ID (03 or 0003), then it's OK.
p.s. given brass prices / value, it might be worth it to pay someone to install a decoder if you're really hesitant.