Getting back into the hobby after a long lay off. I had a Tyco HO set when I was a kid but didn't have the space to build a layout. About 15 years ago I picked up a cheap LifeLine HO set for the kids and me to play with on a table I built.
I want to build a layout an HO. I've got a decent size space maybe around 10 feet by 5.5 feet.
My vision for my layout is a modern urban setting. I'd like to run a three or four trains - freight, commuter diesal, commuter light rail and possibly Amtrack. To start off I want to buy a DCC Controller that can grow as I build my layout. I will probably also start with a DCC locomotive as well.
While starter sets can jump start my process I'm not sure that is really good value for me as I already have a lot of rolling stock and track. I would say I want to be quasi realistic so I don't mind mixing a modern BNSF locomotive with the older rolling stock that I have. I have read good things about the NCE Power Cab System.
The NCE Power Cab system is a great starter and fully expandable based on what you want to accomplish. I outgrew my Power cab system and bought the Powerhouse Pro 5 radio system. I still use my Power cab system for programming engines on an isolated track on my layout.
As far as mixing rolling stock; it's your railroad, do what you want to do!! I mix my modern and 60's/70's rolling stock in as well...
Good luck and welcome back to the hobby!!
Neal
Hi Otis,
to the forum!
Digitrax and NCE both make very good DCC starter sets. I'm partial to the Power Cab, as that has been my DCC system since 2006. For me the throttle is very intuitive and I can control the direction, speed buttons & thumbwheel, horn/whistle, bell, headlight, and emergency stop with just my thumb AND often w/o needing to even look at the throttle.
I like the ergonomic changes with the newer Digitrax Express. The button shapes help visually identifying the function buttons rather than being all the same size - like on the original Zephyr and Zephyr Xtra. It's a stationary controller so you'll need another throttle if you want to move around your layout. The Power Cab is more mobile but it still needs to remain connected to your layout.
With the Power Cab you can upgrade it with the SB5, which is a 5A command station/booster. The Power Cab can then become truly mobile, as it can be disconnected and re-connected around your layout using UTP panels w/o shutting the layout down. You can also upgrade to a PH-Pro and use the Power Cab as an extra throttle. So, no loss in the upgrade path.
In conclusion, you can't really go wrong with either manufacturer and both have their pluses and minuses. That said, I've been very happy with my Power Cab.
As far as your layout, what size min. radii curves will you have? Six-axle locomotives will need at least R22" curves. If you can larger, your locomotives and rolling stock will both look and operate better.
HTH,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I have the NCE 5 amp wireless PH-Pro, but the NCE 2 amp Power Cab might be just right for you. As Tom points out, you can always upgrade later to the PH-Pro.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hello All,
to the forums and your return to this great hobby!
Your first few posts will be reviewed by the moderators so there will be a delay in seeing them.
I came back to this hobby in 2014.
Not understanding what DCC was I built an HO 4'x8' DC pike with 16 blocks, some as little as a single 9-inch section of track.
Trying to run two (2) trains simultaneously was akin to, "playing the piano with boxing gloves."
When I finally converted to DCC I harvested enough wire from those 16 blocks to pay for an entry DCC system.
My first foray into DCC was the Bachmann Dynamis wireless system.
I had expanded this "dead-end" system to its full potential and it still did not suit my needs.
Knowing my power (amperage) requirements and seeking a wireless system I chose the NCE Power Pro 5 Amp wireless system.
Despite the diminutive size of my pike, I run several trains with 3- and 4-unit consists.
These consists are frequently "broken" into smaller consists or single units.
The way the NCE system makes and breaks consists suited my needs better than other DCC systems.
Being left-handed, the ergonomics of the controller just felt right to me over others.
Many have derided my choice of a 5-amps for a 4'x8' pike- -"You'll never need that much power", "Five Amps is 'overkill' for that size" etc., etc., etc.
If "She Who Must Be Obeyed" ever allows me to expand- -highly doubtful- -I have enough power to suit my future needs.
On a side note- -95% of the decoders I use are Digitrax; both sound and non-sound. I also use TCS decoders and ZIMO (European).
Because of the way NCE handles consists the Digitrax decoders need to have CV 57 set to a value of 102 or the consist won't react properly to the speed commands.
All in all, I'm extremely satisfied with my choice of NCE and wish I had made this my first choice for a DCC system.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Welcome to the forums. A lot of information available from the members here. Don't be afraid to ask.
I have a basic NCE set up, love it. However, the suggestion I was given, I thought was a good one. If there is a club or other operators in your area, see what they have. By having similar systems you can easily ask questions or get ideas about your system or join in on operations at a larger layout with your equipment.
Just a thought.
Good luck,
Richard
One thing about the PowerCab: it can be used as a regular throttle, if there is another NCE command station on the system. So you can bring your own throttle to that club layout.
I did Digitrax as it plays well with what I have which is older stuff and is simple to use on a smallish layout and it can be gotten used on the cheap as the people with bigger layouts or more complicated needs tend to go with NCE.
richhotrainI have the NCE 5 amp wireless PH-Pro, but the NCE 2 amp Power Cab might be just right for you. As Tom points out, you can always upgrade later to the PH-Pro.
even with the PH-Pro wouldn't it be useful to have a PowerCab that can be used to program decoders on a separate track from the layout rather than risk inadvertently affecting more than one loco on the entire layout?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc(E)ven with the PH-Pro wouldn't it be useful to have a PowerCab that can be used to program decoders on a separate track from the layout rather than risk inadvertently affecting more than one loco on the entire layout?
Well...yes and no...
With the PH-Pro there is an auxiliary output from the booster/command station to facilitate a programming track- -stand-alone or built-in to the pike.
One of the drawbacks of the PowerCab is a stand-alone or built-in programming track is not possible "out of the box."
NCE offers the Auto SW which is their solution for a built-in programming track using the PowerCab.
This differs from Programming On The Main (POM) which the PowerCab does support.
Using the PowerCab for a built-in programming track requires adding UTP and a Dual Pole Dual Throw (DPDT) toggle switch to be able to "drive" the locomotive on and off the built-in programming track (Pg. 78-79 NCE Power Pro System Reference Manual; V. 1.1.13).
Getting ...
For programming, I use JMRI DecoderPro on my Mac Mini using a Digitrax PR3 (superceeded by the PR4) to a standalone programming track on my workbench/computer desk.
I also added the NCE USB interface for PowerCab and downloaded the full version of WiThrottle to my iPad so I can also run two (2) trains simultaneously from my iPad via WiFi along with the wireless ProCab.
Now I'm getting ahead of what the OP asked.
I think you are missing Greg's point, which is "from the layout". This to me is at a work bench, in another room, or an entirely different location. That wouldn't be very practical with the PH Pro and a ProCab throttle setup.
The Power Cab can indeed be used as a stand-alone programmer out of the box. You have everything you need: Power Cab, PCP panel, 6-connector flat cord, and wall transformer. Hook it up to a piece of track and you are ready to program.
And you have a choice to use it stand-alone...or in conjunction with the NCE USB module and a computer installed with JMRI because you're going to need the PCP panel in either case.
I use DecoderPro primarily for storing my CVs and occasionally for programming. In most cases I find programming directly from the Power Cab quicker and more convenient. Once I'm happy with the changes, I can copy them to my locomotive roster in DecoderPro.
Absolutely!
another use for a PowerCab for programming PSX and PSX-ARs. they have CVs that can be configured using DCC commands.
at least on the club layout, they can easily be disconnected from the booster using knife switches. a pair of wires with alligator clips connected to the PowerCab can be cliped to the PSX rail connection and the PowerCab used to configure the PSX.
i assume the PowerCab could also be convenient to configure a stationary decoder. again, isolated from the layout to avoid inadvertently programming anything else on the layout bus.
tstageI think you are missing Greg's point, which is "from the layout". This to me is at a work bench, in another room, or an entirely different location. That wouldn't be very practical with the PH Pro and a ProCab throttle setup.
Respectfully, I do get Greg's point.
It just seems expensive to dedicate an entire PowerCab system for a stand-alone, off the layout, programming track when there are cheaper options.
A Digitrax PR4 USB to LocoNet Interface with Decoder Programmer will only set you back about $80.00, a 6' USB 2.0 printer cable (M-A to M-B) about $10.00, and JMRI DecoderPro is free versus the PowerCabb system at $180.00. (Not factoring in the cost of your computer.)
My programming track is three (3) pieces of 9" sectional track; straight, rerailer, and straight, attached to a 30" piece of 1"x4".
The PR3 (superceeded by the PR4) sits next to my computer and is wired to the portable programming track.
When not in use it is stored next to the computer desk where I don't need to disconnect the wires.
I don't think Greg was implying that the Power Cab be a "dedicated" throttle. You would have the option of using it on both the off-layout programming track AND on the layout as an extra throttle with the PH-Pro. Plug in/unplug where needed. No addtional expense required.
I think the point is that if the OP already has the Power Cab and eventually upgrades to a PH-Pro system down the line, the Power Cab can be used dual-purpose. I'm presuming you were looking at it from the OP purchasing the PH-Pro outright then adding the Power Cab later? I took it from the viewpoint of the OP choosing a starter set (e.g. Power Cab) rather than the PH-Pro.
FWIW,
Let me add this to the discussion.
Although I have owned a PH-Pro system for years, I remain tempted to buy a Power Cab as an off-layout programmer and tester with the advantage of using it as an additional throttle on the layout.
tstageI'm presuming you were looking at it from the OP purchasing the PH-Pro outright then adding the Power Cab later?
Yes!
Or...
As Rich wrote...
richhotrainI have owned a PH-Pro system for years, I remain tempted to buy a Power Cab as an off-layout programmer and tester with the advantage of using it as an additional throttle on the layout.
I already own an iPad Mini, WiFi router, and run JMRI DecodePro, so going with the NCE USB Interface for Power Cab and the full WiThrottle App essentially added two (2) throttles to my pike for under $65.00, for a total of three (3) throttles.
With the full WiThrottle App, two (2) trains can be controlled from one device.
Full disclosure, CV programming is not available with the WiThrottle App.
My experience with setting up new decoders with my NCE Pro Cab has not been as successful as using the programming setup I listed in my previous post.
I prefer the graphic interface of JMRI DecoderPro and the ability to quickly adjust CVs for best running and/or completely reprogram decoders quickly.
For approximately $150.00 I got two (2) additional throttles and a standalone programming track.
That's cheaper than adding a single ProCab- -with its limitations.
Skip the train starter set and go to train show. Pick up what you need for the era you want to model. If you are not into ultra detail, you can pickup used rolling stock weathered, with KD couplers
I am a satisified with a PowerCab for my needs. That said, on the NCE forum there is some unhappiness with the slow evolution of their systems. While customer service is good, their webpage and help page are a bit dated too.
If I wanted a larger layout eventually I would strongly consider the TCS wireless system, Tony's Trains has a special XMAS price.The Powercab as a dedicated programmer makes a lot of sense if:
Otherwise, it is justifying $180 (current price) that you can't use anymore for it's intended purpose.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddySkip the train starter set and go to train show.
I totally agree with "...go to (a) train show."
As the OP has said...
Otis in TexasI already have a lot of rolling stock and track.
My concern would be with the makeup of the rails of the older track being brass.
The rolling stock can be updated but the track might need to be scrapped.
A train show might be just the ticket to replacing the older track.
However...
Model Train show bargains
Thanks for all the replies. Just now getting back to this thread. I assumed my post got caught up in the ether but it was just in mod review.
Lots of great info here and I will do my best to absorb it. I will probably have a series of follow up questions.
I'm also glad to see this forum has much in common with my college's sports forum where posters will have good natured banter and periodically get off topic. That's meant to be a compliment.
I live in the Dallas area. There's a train show in Plano on 1/20-21. I attended a long time ago after the kids and I started playing with that LifeLine set. I plan to go so I can observe a number of layouts and get some ideas.
I'm also hoping to find some "local" locomotives and rolling stock. My vision for my layout is a modified downtown Dallas setting. So I'd love to find some DART (local light rail) and Trinity Rail Express (diesal commuter between Dallas and Fort Worth) for my layout.
After the train show I plan to settle on a DCC controller and pick up a DCC locomotive and some flex track. I'm going to start by building a 4x8 table and start laying track and running the train(s). I'm a visual learner and I also utilize a lot of trial and error. So being able to play around with different ideas will help me settle on my final design. I appreciate the comment on the older track. I also plan to use this phase to test all the old track. I found a couple of turnouts from my youth at the bottom of the box. They still switch manually but who knows if the track will conduct current. (Forgive me if I use any wrong terms....still getting up to speed).
Here's my first follow up question. With the two controllers that got the most discussion in this thread, NCE Power Cab and the Digitrax, how many HO trains can I run on each of those before I need to add or upgrade? I'd like my first controller to be able to operate 2, and preferably, 3 trains. Frankly I may never get to 4 but who knows.
I model in N scale, so I went to NCE's website, ncedcc.com, to get information on HO scale. They estimate that the two-amp Power Cab can run four HO locomotives, at a half-amp per locomotive.
Otis in TexasHere's my first follow up question. With the two controllers that got the most discussion in this thread, NCE Power Cab and the Digitrax, how many HO trains can I run on each of those before I need to add or upgrade? I'd like my first controller to be able to operate 2, and preferably, 3 trains. Frankly I may never get to 4 but who knows.
Otis,
That's really contingent on what the current draw is for each locomotive. Most new/newer locomotives outfitted with a sound decoder will generally draw 0.25A or <. However, 0.5A is usually a good & conservative rule of thumb to follow.
The Power Cab has 1.7A continuous/2.0A peak output. The Digitrax Zephyr Express has 3A output. By your criteria, either system should operate three trains simultaneously. Keep in mind that any lighted passenger cars will also have a current draw.
Here's a photo of each controller:
Suggestion: At the upcoming train show next month, see if a vendor or one of the club layouts will let you hold and/or try either system. How it feels in your hand and how intuitive it is to you will help in your decision making process. Although I still like and prefer my Power Cab throttle, I think the button layout on the new Digitrax Zephyr is much more intuitive than the originals.
Lost in A2 I model in N scale, so I went to NCE's website, ncedcc.com, to get information on HO scale. They estimate that the two-amp Power Cab can run four HO locomotives, at a half-amp per locomotive.
For a fairly small layout, both NCE and CVP make DCC units that have two throttles built into it. With both you can add walkaround and/or radio control later. But at the start you'll be able to run two locomotives / trains independently.
FWIW, CVP is in Texas....
CVP Products EasyDCC System (cvpusa.com)
Otis in TexasJust now getting back to this thread. I assumed my post got caught up in the ether but it was just in mod review.
Yes- -the moderators will review your first few posts which will cause a delay in seeing and responding to them.
Otis in TexasHere's my first follow up question. With the two controllers that got the most discussion in this thread, NCE Power Cab and the Digitrax, how many HO trains can I run on each of those before I need to add or upgrade?
As has been posted the NCE ProCab system is limited to 1.7A continuous/2.0A peak output while the Digitrax Zephyer is 3 Amps.
OK, so what do those numbers mean?
tstageMost new/newer locomotives outfitted with a sound decoder will generally draw 0.25A or <. However, 0.5A is usually a good & conservative rule of thumb to follow.
Calculating Amperage is the easiest formula in electronics.
You don't need to know what "Amperage" is you just know how to add.
Amperage is calculated by adding up the values of each electronic component.
For example...
Let's presume the individual breakers in your electrical panel in your home are 15 Amps each.
If you have a 10 Amp microwave and a 1.5 Amp toaster on the same circuit the amperage draw is 11.5 Amps (10A + 1.5A = 11.5A) when both are running.
Now, if you add a mixer that pulls 5 Amps to that same circuit you have overloaded the circuit and the breaker will trip; 11.5A + 5 A = 16.5 A, with all three running.
There is also what is known as "Peak or Start-Up" Amperage.
When the washing machine in your home starts up there is a momentary Amperage spike to get the motor started, then the amperage drops to the "running" or continuous Amperage.
Unfortunately, model train manufacturers don't list the amperage draw of their locomotives.
Locomotives fitted with sound and Energy Storage Units- -ESUs- -(AKA "Keep-Alive" or "Power Extenders", tend to have a startup draw and then a continuous running draw.
Older ESUs tended to create "false shorts" as the power booster saw the rapid spike in amperage to charge them as a short.
Newer ESUs have circuitry that slowly draws the current to charge them so a power spike is not created.
You posted that you might eventually want to...
Otis in TexasI'd like my first controller to be able to operate 2, and preferably, 3 trains. Frankly I may never get to 4 but who knows.
When you say "train" do you mean a single locomotive pulling a string of cars; which can be referred to as a "train."
Or, several locomotives; known as a "Consist" ("Multiple Unit" [MU]) or "DMP" (Distributed Motive Power) where locomotives are at the head, middle and rear, pulling a string of cars also known as a "train"?
The amperage draw of each locomotive being run simultaneously needs to be factored into the total draw.
This is why many modelers will build cutoff switches into their staging tracks to reduce the amperage draw of sitting locomotives.
Muting the sound will also save power.
bear in mind it's not what the PowerCab is rated at, it's what the wall wart is rated at. i think mine is only 1.3A
(I've read the PowerCab plastic can melt when operated at the rating of its electronics)