ATLANTIC CENTRALNo Greg, the route on 12 that connects to 9 does not need to be powered off,
not suggesting that it is
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Dave, thanks for the clarification. And happy I could offer a "streamlined" solution.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI am assuming he wants to park locomotives and not have them idling all the time.
Hi Sheldon,
That is exactly what I am trying to do. I want to have a switching locomotive parked on the spur west of turnout #15. Theoretically I will use that locomotive to move cars throughout the 16, 14, 12, 13 and 15 turnouts instead of bringing other locomotives onto the ladder, although there will be locomotives that pass through the ladder to drop cars off.
I'm still playing with the locations for the uncouplers (the orange circles) by the way.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave may not need to isolate 13 and 15 as shown on his original drawing if 12 isolates that whole leg.
He is not running DC, He uses DCC, so he has no control issues with multiple locos on the 12, 13, 15 stub. But I am assuming he wants to park locomotives and not have them idling all the time.
Another feature of DCC that I don't like and just brings us back to conventional wiring to shut them off.
And they said in the beginning DCC would only require two wires.......
gregc hon30critter The spurs coming off of turnouts 16, 14 and 12 will be powered off. The powered off section from #12 includes turnouts 13 and 15. All the spurs are dead ended. since both diverging track from #12 need to be unpowered at the same time, it looks like the diverging path thru #11 is the switch to turns all the spurs off
hon30critter The spurs coming off of turnouts 16, 14 and 12 will be powered off. The powered off section from #12 includes turnouts 13 and 15. All the spurs are dead ended.
since both diverging track from #12 need to be unpowered at the same time, it looks like the diverging path thru #11 is the switch to turns all the spurs off
No Greg, the route on 12 that connects to 9 does not need to be powered off, only the dead end route from 12 needs to be powered off. 14 and 16 will kill their dead end spurs.
On his original sketch Dave indicated which tracks need to be able to be isolated.
13 and 15 need to isolate their sections, but they need to get their power feed thru 12, so that the whole zone is dead if 12 is aligned to 9.
That will give the same full flexibility shown on Dave's original drawing allowing the stub past 13 to be isolated and both legs at 15 to be isolated.
I was going to ask a question but I actually figured out the answer by myself! Shocking!! (But hopefully not electrically shocking!)
Hi Greg,
Here is the diagram again. The spurs coming off of turnouts 16, 14 and 12 will be powered off. The powered off section from #12 includes turnouts 13 and 15. All the spurs are dead ended.
Here is the whole layout again so you can see where the above panel fits in. The view is from the south side. Click on it twice to get a better view:
it's not clear to me which tracks are to be powered off. i can understand that there is some switch to the mainline tracks through which power can be routed. wouldn't that be #11?
gregc hon30critter I also want to put dwarf signals indicating the power status. Sheldon obviously has a better idea of what is desired. gregc of course you can wire the tortoise switches in series to only provide power to the select ladder track, but then one spur will always powered. without adding a single additional power switch, isn't one spur always powered?
hon30critter I also want to put dwarf signals indicating the power status.
Sheldon obviously has a better idea of what is desired.
gregc of course you can wire the tortoise switches in series to only provide power to the select ladder track, but then one spur will always powered.
without adding a single additional power switch, isn't one spur always powered?
To you question about one spur always being powered, no, not based on my understanding of the track diagram. Again, turnout 12 needs to isolate that whole leg.
hon30critterI also want to put dwarf signals indicating the power status.
Yes, that should work fine.
Just keep in mind that on turnout #12, it should turn off the whole switch back siding on its straight thru route.
That will make #13 and #15 slaves to #12, leaving nothing on that leg powered when #12 is set to the ladder.
This fixes Gregs's concern that something would be left powered when it should be off.
I want to bump this post up because I have changed the wiring diagram for the power shutoff to the spurs.
Is this correct?
I may have to move the spur + lead from Tortoise contact #2 to #3.
Thanks,
gregc how do the dwarf signals get wired? only one should be green, right?
how do the dwarf signals get wired? only one should be green, right?
I'm pretty sure Dave just wants them to indicate turnout position, so it depends on where he wants to place them and are they three color or two color?
In any case they should be able to be wired to the directly to the Tortoise machine by one of several wiring schemes.
Wiring diagram edited:
gregchow do the dwarf signals get wired? only one should be green, right?
The dwarf signals have a bi-colour red/green LEDs. I'm going to power them through the Tortoise motor feeds the same as any other LEDs would be wired for signals or track indication.
This is the power shut off wiring diagram. Does it work? I may have to move spur + feed from Tortoise #2 to #3:
maxman I haven't been following this thread too closely, but I'm not sure why power on/off swithches are needed for these dead end sidings. If you were to use power routing turnouts would that not solve the on/off issue? And if you have live turnouts could you not just use the extra Tortoise contact to provide power when the turnout is thrown?
I haven't been following this thread too closely, but I'm not sure why power on/off swithches are needed for these dead end sidings.
If you were to use power routing turnouts would that not solve the on/off issue?
And if you have live turnouts could you not just use the extra Tortoise contact to provide power when the turnout is thrown?
Clearly you have not been following it. I recently suggested using the switch machines to power the sidings and Dave likes that idea.
Hi Overmod,
Sheldon's solution meets my needs perfectly and it doesn't require any additional components, other than perhaps a few more feet of wire. Most importantly, I understand it! I won't have dedicated track power indicators or switches on the control panels, but that will make them considerably less cluttered which is a real bonus.
Overmod Why doesn't he just get one humongous latching relay for each set of feeders he wants to energize, and then wire as many momentary-contact pushbuttons to it as he wants "power on-off buttons" for that section. Each time you press any button, it toggles the relay -- if it was on, it will turn off; if it is off, it will turn it on. Then just have one big power-on LED per section, perhaps in something like a CTC board that shows the track layout, where you can see it.
Why doesn't he just get one humongous latching relay for each set of feeders he wants to energize, and then wire as many momentary-contact pushbuttons to it as he wants "power on-off buttons" for that section. Each time you press any button, it toggles the relay -- if it was on, it will turn off; if it is off, it will turn it on. Then just have one big power-on LED per section, perhaps in something like a CTC board that shows the track layout, where you can see it.
Regular relays are easily latched and unmatched with simple circuits, but using turnout position automates the process and streamlines the controls.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL If so, wire one of the power leads to the siding thru the contacts on the switch machine so that when the turnout is alligned against the siding the track power is off. those contacts are really just rated to provide intermittent power. others have added micro-switches to the machines the other thing is these are spurs in a ladder and both spurs from a switch may be off. of course you can wire the tortoise switches in series to only provide power to the select ladder track, but then one spur will always powered.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If so, wire one of the power leads to the siding thru the contacts on the switch machine so that when the turnout is alligned against the siding the track power is off.
those contacts are really just rated to provide intermittent power. others have added micro-switches to the machines
the other thing is these are spurs in a ladder and both spurs from a switch may be off. of course you can wire the tortoise switches in series to only provide power to the select ladder track, but then one spur will always powered.
Not according to the manufacturer. They specifically say they can be used for powering frogs and routing power.
I have never had a failure using them in those ways.
I think a few guys found a way to overload them and then it became like an urban myth that you could not use them for track power. I had a friend years ago that mounted all those extra switches, I never saw the need.
And somehow don't see Dave running 4 powered units pulling 50 cars and running that current thru the Tortoise contacts.
Looking at Dave's diagram above there is no problem with my plan. If the top turnout 12 is set to the ladder, and 14 and 16 are set thru to 9, all the dead end tracks will be dead. 12 will be the origin feed for 13 and 15, so that whole leg will only be powered when 12 is alligned in that direction.
Easy Peasy, like we have always done in DC.
Kevin,
I can't forget about your help either. Thanks.
I just went back to my panel drawings and eliminated all the toggle switches and LEDs for the track power shutoffs. That is a total of 72 items that will not be on the panels (18 toggle switches plus 18 LEDs x 2 sets of panels = 72 fewer holes in my head holes in the control panels)! Thanks again Sheldon!!!
ATLANTIC CENTRALIf so, wire one of the power leads to the siding thru the contacts on the switch machine so that when the turnout is alligned against the siding the track power is off.
I want to thank you again for all your help, but I think that Sheldon has come up with the perfect solution. I have included LEDs for signals in the Tortoise circuits so I can use the dwarf signals in a more prototypical manner. I don't know why I didn't see that before.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo Dave, am I correct in understanding that all these tracks are dead end sidings and that their turnouts are all controlled with Tortoise switch machines?
Yes.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAm I correct in understanding there will be duplicate controls for these turnouts on each side of the layout?
Sheldon, thank you for offering such a simple solution! In fact, I can eliminate the power shutoff switches and indicators on the panels entirely and just look at the turnout LEDs to see whether the power is on or not.
ATLANTIC CENTRALJust my opinion, but I think your control panels will be very cluttered and hard to read with all those switches and separate LED's in such a small space.
I will know the answer to that question as soon as I build the first trial panel. I'm trying to keep them small because I will be sitting most of the time when running the layout. I don't want them protruding above the fascia and I don't want them hanging too far below the fascia either. I can stretch them lengthwise without having to make them taller if they are too crowded.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy other opinion, while the "three way" light switch wiring works, I do not like the idea that the switch position is not consistant with the "action".
That is a compromise that I can accept. I will be focusing on the LEDs anyhow because that is how my brain works.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI use circuits that use LED lighted pushbuttons, so a turnout simply has two pushbuttons and the selected route is lit up. And I can put duplicate buttons on as many different control panels as I want - 2 locations, or 20.
I have already purchased all the toggle switches so I'm going to work with what I have.
Again, thanks for all the input! I can scratchbuild things easily but wiring makes my brain hurt.
So Dave, am I correct in understanding that all these tracks are dead end sidings and that their turnouts are all controlled with Tortoise switch machines?
How about an even simpler approach to this whole problem.
Am I correct in understanding there will be duplicate controls for these turnouts on each side of the layout?
If so, wire one of the power leads to the siding thru the contacts on the switch machine so that when the turnout is alligned against the siding the track power is off.
Modelers have been doing this in DC since model trains were invented.
Are your dwarf signals LED's? In any case they could be wired using the other set of contacts on the switch machine.
Just my opinion, but I think your control panels will be very cluttered and hard to read with all those switches and separate LED's in such a small space.
My other opinion, while the "three way" light switch wiring works, I do not like the idea that the switch position is not consistant with the "action".
I use circuits that use LED lighted pushbuttons, so a turnout simply has two pushbuttons and the selected route is lit up. And I can put duplicate buttons on as many different control panels as I want - 2 locations, or 20.
Dave, your diagram shows the LEDs wired in series with track power instead of between some DC power source (tortoise power) and ground.
these would be DPDT switches where the one pole powers the track and the other pole powers the LEDs
if both LEDs are wired in series, only a single resistor is needed
Hi Kevin,
Yes, all the tracks with power shut offs are dead end spurs.