Hi Eveyone,
My name is Jason and I'm new to this forum. I have a old 4'x8' HO "The Yardmaster" layout track that my dad built for me when I was a kid. He used Atlas track and equipment and this all DC with several DC loco's. Fast forward 25 years... The track and layout are still in pretty great shape with some things not working, like the bell on the tyco train crossing, two turnouts don't work (have to move manually). The trains do work around the outer loop and the figure eight but it's DC power, so it's not nearly as smooth as DCC and hard to run two trains at once. I would love to get this layout up to date. Sounds like DCC is the way to go? I know very little about DCC. I am looking for suggestions, ideas, how to's, don't do, equipment that I would need to convert, and any and help would be greatly appreciated. My kids (8 and 6) love driving the train as is, but I would love to make this better with a couple of new modern locos to have even more fun. Thanks to all for help. I attached a few pics for you to get an idea of what I have.
Jason
Welcome to the forum. You'll be amazed at the wealth of modeling information this group offers. Although it was quite some time ago, I also converted from old school DC to the wonderful world of DCC.
Converting a DC layout to DCC is usually pretty simple. If the layout is powered by a single DC power pack, disconnect the two wires from between the track and the power pack, then connect those two wires to the "track" terminals of the new DCC Command Station/Booster. That's it! If your trains slow down on a particular section of track, you might want to run a few new feeder wires between such sections and the DCC unit. However, it really is just two wires.
If the layout is set up for cab control DC operation (multiple trains), flip all of the track block switches to one "cab", then connect the track wires for that power pack "cab" to the new DCC unit. Again, that's it. Yes, you will hear from all sorts of modelers that it's not that simple. Yet I am part of the crew that operates multiple trains on an 8 1/2' by 11' HO scale double decked layout that was converted from the old Atlas style cab control to a Digitrax DCC system in just this way with no upgrades to the wiring sizes. In fact, the old Atlas Selector switches are still in place but taped over. This layout was featured in Model Railroader a few years ago and it continues to run quite well.
As far as which system to use, OH BOY will that start an argument! Many forum members will swear by one brand of DCC system which could just become the system you only swear at! I have used Atlas, Bachmann EZ Command, CVP, Digitrax, MRC and NCE DCC systems and all have their own advantages and disadvantages as well as price points. The Atlas and Bachmann systems are very basic but do provide actual DCC operation. The Atlas (Lenz) system might be a little hard to find anymore but the Bachmann EZ Command system is available both new and used. A cheap used unit could be a good way to introduce yourself to DCC without spending a lot of money. It will also show you how far the basic DCC features will take your layout while also exposing it's lack of features you might truly desire in a future upgrade system. The only problem with these basic systems is the difficulty in setting up multiple throttles for multiple operators (both you and your kids). It may be better to spend a little more to purchase a more full-featured starter system and add a second throttle. However, this is where things get sticky. Whatever approach you choose, get some hands on experience with actual DCC systems of different brands. The systems all work similarly so it really comes down to which throttles you like. Some throttles make you wish you had three hands while others are so well designed that you never need more than one hand. Visit local hobby shops near you to see what they use on their display layout. Visit a local club or two for the same reason. If possible, visit a few private layouts to see what systems they use. Your kids will probably learn the systems faster than you will so get their opinions, too.
Finally, one of the most popular systems also seems to be the most glitchy. I have attended several operating sessions where this brand of DCC system glitched so badly that the session had to be cancelled because the trains would no longer function properly. Yes, I have experienced glitches with other brand systems but never so bad that the session had to be aborted. Ask lot of questions. The more you know the better choices you can make. Most importantly, ask the question, "If you could go back and start all over again, which DCC system would you buy?"
You will have to install decoders in your existing DC loco fleet but that's not difficult if you have a little basic electrical knowledge and decent soldering skills. I would start by converting one or two locos with non-sound decoders (you can always add sound later). There are plenty of "how-to" videos on-line. The decoder wires are all color coded which makes the task much easier. Keep in mind that DCC will not make a poor running loco run better so make sure your locos run as well as possible on DC before your convert them.
Good Luck!
Hornblower
One more time. to the forum. Your initial posts are delayed in moderation.
I suggest a beginner book on DCC from Kalmbach. DCC has a learning curve and is not intuitive.
Your track plan can be googled but I am frustrated by errors in trying to post to this obsolete forum. Being obsolete, we can't see your pics. There is a sticky on how to post photos, which usually work.
Anyway there are no reversing loops that would cause special considerations. Running two trains at once can be challenging from purely a concentration viewpoint. DCC purists like a track bus and feeders every 6'.
Modern HO engines are a) highly detailed, b) expensive and c) fragile considering the age of your children. Conversion to DCC makes more sense, and less expensive if you don't go for sound.
I don't know what the "glitchy" system is that Hornblower refers to. I have an NCE Powercab and am happy but NCE owners would welcome an upgrade to the ergonomic but old design.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Hi there. DCC is great, but expensive. Your old locos will not run well on DCC and new locos cost about 80$ minimum. So, if it's for you, I would say do your homework first. If it's for your kids, i'd say stick with DC and let them have fun..
Simon
snjroyYour old locos will not run well on DCC and new locos cost about 80$ minimum
If they run well on DC, that statement is not true. There are articles about "tuning up" Athearn Blue Box's. Stewart and LifeLike Proto don't need no stinkin' tuneup.
I would not recommend running old DC locos for prolonged periods of time (i.e. with kids) on a DCC layout. The motors will burn out.
I had trouble too Henry, I think it's because this thread was moved from the Gneral Discussion to here while we were trying to respond.
I had a long respons to his thraed which is gone, maybe I'll try again later. Getting tired of these problems. This happened in the diner the other day too.
Mike.
My You Tube
Hello All,
to the forums.
As has been noted your first few posts will be moderated, so be patient.
The track plan you are referring to is still produced by Atlas:
The Yardmaster
MilehighRR...my dad built for me when I was a kid.
As with all things sentimental- -restoration can sometimes be more costly than a complete upgrade.
That's a decision you should consider.
In regards to the physical makeup of the track- -modern track rails are made of Nickle-Silver, while older rails were made of Brass.
Restoring Brass track is not impossible but will take some effort to get whatever locomotive you are using, running reliably.
Regarding the turnouts (switches) many people don't use the remote switch machines and throw them manually.
At this point, I would not dwell on them unless they are causing derailment issues.
With the motive power (locomotives)...
If they don't run reliably on DC converting to DCC won't help and might exacerbate the problems.
Before committing to DCC determine if the present pike (layout) is worth upgrading or should you focus your effort and money on restoration.
If this were my project I would opt for the restoration path.
Keep the pike DC.
This will simplify the restoration of the motive power.
There are plenty of great folks on these forums to guide you on this path.
During this project you will be exposed to many facets of this great hobby- -some you may enjoy and some- -not so much.
Go the restoration path if your focus is on reviving this fallen pike to its former glory.
If your wish is to upgrade this classic to modern standards consider a complete rebuild with more modern and reliable DC components now, with an eye towards DCC in the future.
Keep the questions coming, let us know of your progress, and as always...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
As alluded to by Hornblower, if you ask a question of 5 Model Railroaders, you’ll more than likely get 6 answers. In MY experience, the Digitrax Zephyr DCC All in one Control Station has done sterling service on the Clubs portable layouts. Depending on how your layout was wired, connecting in DCC should b easy; I see Henry has already mentioned there is no reversing loop. I would suggest that as a starter, that buying a DCC ready sound equipped locomotive, while coming at with a cost, maybe less frustrating than converting your existing locomotives.
Rich
Alton Junction
I don't see where you mention which locos you have. That can make a difference if it is worth the aggravation of converting them. If they are older trainset engines. Dcc is finikey. With dirt and connections. Best bet. Find one or two basic dcc equipped engines To start. Worry about converting the old ones once you better understand dcc and the wiring system. It is laid out simple. And color coded. I too converted from dc to dcc back in 93. When it was a tougher thing and no standards were around. And did convert trainset style engines over. To get you started I recommend first replacing the the wire and connections so those will not be and issue for you. Get one or two dcc equipped locos and the digitrax zypher. That seams to be the one most recommended to beginners. Get some of the books on dcc That should get you running. There is a learning curve
once running then delv into learning the dcc stuff more and maybe convert the old locos and such once you have learned more. the nationAl model railroad association I'd another good source of info once you get going.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
MilehighRR I have a old 4'x8' HO "The Yardmaster" layout track that my dad built for me when I was a kid.
Is this the plan I found on the Atlas web site, "HO-10, the Yardmaster" ?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-44183-ho-10-the-yardmaster.aspx
If so, they also have a DCC wireing plan, there is a link on the web site, under the plan description:
https://shop.atlasrr.com/DCC/Layouts/DCC_Wiring_HO-10.pdf
Your getting great advice, so please read everyone's response.
MilehighRRbut it's DC power, so it's not nearly as smooth as DCC
Coverting your old locos to DCC will NOT make them run smoother, as others have said, and I personally wouldn't try to convert a Tyco locomotive to DCC, and I wouldn't suggest trying to run your old Tyco DC locos on a DCC layout.
You will be far better off buying a DCC equipped locomotive, or a DCC "ready" locomotive. The "ready" means that you need to "unplug" the DC jumper, and "plug in " a DCC decoder. Sound is optional, and will add considerable cost to the locomotive.
Read the suggested articles and books, and do some home work, you'll be fine.
I was one of .those who didn't find any advantage to DCC and then the the sound got better which needed well powered frogs. Found Digitrax to be the most rugged and simple but NCE for more advanced stuff. The Bachmann stuff is real simple too but I was not a fan because as you learn you want it to do more stuff but the Bachmann DCC control stuff can be bought real cheap second hand.
NVSRRGet one or two dcc equipped locos and the digitrax zypher. That seams to be the one most recommended to beginners.
When deciding on a DCC system (Manufacturer) there are many factors to consider rather than just, "Brand 'X' is a popular choice."
The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) is an organization dedicated to the standards and recommended practices of model railroading, primarily in North America.
In the early years of digital control, there were many components that weren't interoperable.
Putting it simply, one manufacturer's DCC system wasn't compatible with another's decoders.
The NMRA standardized the interoperability of DCC components. Today you can use Digitrax decoders with an NCE system with no issues.
My first DCC system was the Bachman Dynamis. It is known as a "Dead End" system. The expansion possibilities are limited and it does not interface with the "beginner" E-Z Command® Plus DCC Controller.
(This system is no longer supported by Bachmann and is only available on the used market in North America.)
The major North American manufacturers of DCC systems won't mix and match with other manufacturers.
You can't use an NCE throttle (controller) with Digitrax boosters (power sources). Yes, there are exceptions.
If you choose Digitrax you will need to stick with their throttles (controllers) and boosters (power packs). As stated above you can use other manufacturers' decoders, but the components of the DCC control system need to be the same.
The ergonomics of the throttle can be a deal breaker for some.
Bachmann Dynamis throttles are similar to a video game controller.
Digitrax throttles have two (2) speed wheels at the top, in a dial configuration, so you can control two (2) separate trains simultaneously. While the previously mentioned Zypher system looks more like a DC controller with a rheostat-type (large knob) speed controller.
NCE has the speed wheel placed in the center of the throttle in a thumb wheel configuration along with push-button speed control.
MRC has a single speed wheel at the bottom of the throttle in a dial configuration.
If, in the future, you are planning on joining a club or participating in operating sessions purchasing the same system used is important.
However, if you are only going to run your pike ("lone wolf") then choose the system that meets your budget, needs, and ergonomics.
The Bachmann Dynamis system is not bad but I found I needed a system with more functions and expandability.
I went with NCE for the ergonomics and consisting methods.
As I suggested in my earlier post, get the DC system running and then consider which DCC system best fits your needs.
Keep the questions coming, keep us appraised of your progress, and as always...
jjdamnitYou can't use an NCE throttle (controller) with Digitrax boosters (power sources).
jjdamnitIf you choose Digitrax you will need to stick with their throttles (controllers) and boosters (power packs).
I believe that these statements are incorrect. Boosters are basically power supplies.
I think what you meant to say was throttles and command stations.
maxmanI believe that these statements are incorrect. Boosters are basically power supplies.
IDK but you can't mix and match starter systems. However a 4x8 layout running 2 trains, doesn't need a separate booster. That was a point I tried to make, which may have been lost in the Internet. The starter books have diagrams of 5 boosters and separate power districts. That is for a mega railroad, not a 4x8.
Welcome! I'll make this simple. I started with a 4x6 HO, DC layout. Very simple to switch over to DCC.
As for brand, ask around your area what other people have. See if there is a club or other group. Check at your local hobbyshop. (If you have one.) By finding out what is popular in your area other folks can help you out and if you get into a group you can take your controlller along to their layut to share in the fun.
Have fun,
Richard
Edit: Be sure your track and wheels are clean. Can make quite a performance difference.
edit: Be sure your track and wheels are clean. Can make a real performance difference.
People, including myself, have said that if it doesn't run well in DC, it won't in DCC. However at a very low speed step, with good track and wiring, a loco will positively crawl with DCC.
mbinsewi...they also have a DCC wireing (SIC) plan, there is a link on the web site, under the plan description...
The problem with the Atlas DCC wiring conversion(s) is that they rely on the Atlas #205 Connectors and a DC Cab (power supply) rather than using a DCC power bus with feeders and a wall wart to power the turnout motors.
Converting the Yardmaster pike to DCC would be much simpler than what Atlas suggests.
With the turnouts; Atlas Snap Switches, the frogs cannot be powered for more reliable DCC operation.
As I suggested, restore this pike to its former DC glory and then decide if upgrading to DCC is cost-effective, or would starting from scratch and possibly refining the track plan, be a better option.
jjdamnitIf, in the future, you are planning on joining a club or participating in operating sessions purchasing the same system used is important.
This is not entirely true as most clubs/private operating sessions have extra throttles available or you can use your cell phone as a throttle. If neither of these options are available, you only need to purchase a throttle to use at the club. If it turns out the club uses a system you don't really like, you don't have to purchase the same system for your home layout.
DCC decoders have "Back EMF" which is sort of like a cruise control in a car, only you don't have to turn it on and off. So once you set the engine to a certain speed, it keeps running at that speed whether going upgrade, downgrade, around a curve, etc. until you change the throttle setting.
Many also have "keep alive" capability, where the engine will keep going for up to 10 seconds if it loses power. That is very helpful in older steam engines where the engine picks up power from one rail and the tender from the other, and if you have a layout with unpowered frogs.
I would argue that with these two things alone, it is possible that a DC locomotive will run better if changed to DCC.
Nice explanation, Stix.
Great info. I agree about the cost of converting to DCC. I think the best idea with this layout is to replace a couple of the turnouts and keep everything as orgianlly built and run it on DC? The train do operate on the fairly well. Seems like the locos will slow down/loose power when going into a new power section. Also, I do have a problem with some of the cars de-railing. Do you have a recommendation for this? Add weight? Any other recommendations you have for getting DC to operate better?
They are all Tycos I believe maybe one or two Bachmans.
Thanks very much for the information. Great stuff. I think I would like to restore the layout to its former glory. Won't take too much much, because everything already 'mostly' works. An6 recommendations for restoration?
Yup this is the layout.
What kind modern and more reliable DC components are you referring to upgrade this DC layout? I am going to keep this layout DC with the possibility to make a new modern DCC layout. The wife will 'love' another train board....
Is there a way to post pics on here to show you guys the layout and etc?
Go to the General Discussion forum, on top of the list is Steve Otte's "sticky note" on how to post pictures.
MilehighRR Seems like the locos will slow down/loose power when going into a new power section
If you mean: entering a different block, then I would suspect your feed to the track is inadequate, or you are depending on rail connectors to transmit electrons or your track is dirty. I am not a fan of soldering all the rail connectors because I once experienced kinked track. We are big into feeders with DCC.
As for the derailing we need more information. Old and new cars are often underweight by NRMA standards. Put a light flat car in the middle of the train and you will get a stringlining derailment. It also could be just certain cars or related to the direction of travel. A NMRA gauge is very useful to detect wheel sets that are out of spec. We had one person who asked a similar question and he posted pics of his layout and there were obvious kinks.