Good job, Matt.
Rich
Alton Junction
"What makes a loco travel in the wrong direction?"
A1: An improperly set turnout.
A2: Road Forman in the bushes with a radar gun.
A3: A washrack or RIP track.
A4: A hand written order from a Dispatcher with no sense of direction.
A5: The sight of either of our 2 oceans beyond the 'End of Track' warning sign just ahead.
A6: Natural disaster (or is this too much an obvious one?)
crossthedogAll good. I ran it around with a yellow-box RS-1 and they run about the same speed, so I put them in a consist.
This is so good that you got it fixed.
I wish I would have taken a closer look at your picture sooner than I did. I feel terrible for sending you in the wrong direction when the answer was right in front of me.
Happy railroading.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
All good. I ran it around with a yellow-box RS-1 and they run about the same speed, so I put them in a consist. Someday I'll get some warmer headlights, but all in all I'm happy. With your help, I managed to rewire a locomotive!
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
richhotrainThis is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear).
I color code everything I do.
Maybe not to NMRA RP, but I keep 12 colors of each 24 through 18 gauge wire on hand for projects. It sure makes life easier.
The top picture, the top chassis is a HO Yellow box Atlas RS1 with a gray Kato DC Lamp bracket (board) #707107 and one light bulb in the center and the model is made in Japan with the so called Kato drive. The bottom chassis is a HO Black box Atlas Classic RS1 ''F'' on the long hood with a green DC pcb #885120 on the parts sheet and #824-X001 on the pcb and has two light bulbs on the ends and the model is made in China.
The bottom picture, with the chassis's in the same order as above, notice the motors are switched end for end, brushes are at different ends. The bottom chassis has a''F'' on the long hood. Also notice the flywheels, both of mine have stepped down ends and the OP's are full size.
Yes you can flip the motor end for end in the chassis.
The Yellow box mainframe/chassis part #707400 are the same for the Atlas RS3 and RS11.
The Black box Classic RS3 mainframe/chassis is better then the Yellow box RS3 mainframes/chassis, being that the Black box mainframe/chassis have a metal coupler pad and the Yellow box RS3 has the couplers mounting to the plastic running board/walkway.
The mainframe/chassis for the Atlas RS1 is very different and is part #810400.
The pcb keeps the wires from making contact with the flywheels. Your flywheel looks like it has rub marks on it.
Just like real Railroading, the loco goes into the shop for repairs or upgrades, take out the DC pcb and upgrade to a Atlas DCC pcb #340 D-MD, #341 or #342 D-M4F then maybe at some point that goes out for a WOW sound decoder.
Okay, it's not as bad as I'd thought. I removed the shell and replaced it, making sure the wires weren't pinched. Not sure whether that did anything. The loco moves, and will go at a good clip, it just seems to take more throttle than usual to get it started. It lights up correctly, too. So my wiring seems to be correct now.
To those wondering about a board: I do believe this product originally came "DCC ready". So yeah, serious ransacking has occurred here. I'm not great with the soldering iron, otherwise I'd probably just redo all the connections. I may be imagining it, but it feels like my solder connections were not shiny enough and that's making the motor sluggish.
I dunno. Good enough for my present skill level. Case closed.
cross the dog:
Looking at the pic you posted above. That engine has been seriously tinkered with inside at some point.
There's no light board -- at all.
Looks like a previous owner ripped it out and rewired by hand. Or perhaps it had a dcc decoder that was removed, and the wiring just patched together to make it usable again.
It might be possible to find the correct analog light board that will fit into this one. Then wire it up that way, with the motor wires arranged to make it go "the right way". I believe there are two vertical plastic "posts" on either end of the engine. The board snapped onto the top of these.
Someone in the forum may even have one laying around.
Hm. I wonder if the wires themselves are actually impeding the spinning of the gears. I know they were tucked up pretty high originally. I wonder if the wires got pinched between the shell and something trying to turn. I'll check that out. But I won't report back unless that was actually the cause.
-Matt
Good news bad news. What's that? You want the good news first? Okay, it took me about three minutes to reverse the soldered motor wires. I put the loco back on the track and it ran correctly, reverse and forward the same way the other locos run.
But...
The lights were now wrong. The the short hood light came on when I was moving forward (long hood forward -- yes, I know, NP ran them SHF) and the long hood light came on when I reversed. So -- and here's the bad news -- I cut the black and white wires coming from the trucks to each light, and reversed each one. That is, I made the black wire coming from the front truck go to the wire at the back light, instead of the front light as it was before. And so with each of the other three wires. Now the lights are correct: when I throttle up in forward the forward light comes on. When I throttle in reverse, the back light comes on. However, the locomotive does not move now. it wants to; it makes a little whine, but no gears are turning.
I am very discouraged. The wires were short and difficult to work with, and I couldn't get my strippers in there, so it was a job just getting bare wire to solder together, and then the electrical tape I used was very gooey, and I regretted using it at all. It's a mess. But I figured that the connections were good. I have no idea what went wrong, unless my solder joints were not clean.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL including the extra wires for the lights, which in this case appear to be LED's for directional lighting? Maybe some resistors hidden in some shrink wrap?
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL So he will be connecting the red wires to the orange motor wire, and the black wires to the grey motor wire, and the blue, yellow and white wires to to the already multi colored splices of red/orange and black /grey depending on the rest of the lighting circuit (diodes, resistors, etc). He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can can otherwise simply observe? I rewire locos all the time after removing pesky decoders, I don't keep a stock of a dozen wire colors..... I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care. Sheldon So, why not just wire a DC loco with nothing but black wire? For that matter, why not do the same on a DCC Ready loco when installing a decoder? By the way, when you look at that awful wiring in the photo, I believe that a relative novice cannot look at it and simply observe where all that wiring goes and what function it performs? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So he will be connecting the red wires to the orange motor wire, and the black wires to the grey motor wire, and the blue, yellow and white wires to to the already multi colored splices of red/orange and black /grey depending on the rest of the lighting circuit (diodes, resistors, etc). He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can can otherwise simply observe? I rewire locos all the time after removing pesky decoders, I don't keep a stock of a dozen wire colors..... I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care. Sheldon
So he will be connecting the red wires to the orange motor wire, and the black wires to the grey motor wire, and the blue, yellow and white wires to to the already multi colored splices of red/orange and black /grey depending on the rest of the lighting circuit (diodes, resistors, etc).
He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can can otherwise simply observe?
I rewire locos all the time after removing pesky decoders, I don't keep a stock of a dozen wire colors.....
I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care.
Sheldon
So, why not just wire a DC loco with nothing but black wire? For that matter, why not do the same on a DCC Ready loco when installing a decoder?
By the way, when you look at that awful wiring in the photo, I believe that a relative novice cannot look at it and simply observe where all that wiring goes and what function it performs?
I often do just use all the same color wire if I am starting from scratch.
You see an awful wiring job, except for the motor leads being switched, I see typical pre DCC loco wiring that served this hobby for 60-70 years?
How hard is it to see wires coming out of same side of the trucks and know they are for the wheels on that side of the loco, and that the similar wires on the other side of the loco are for the wheels on that other side of the loco?
And, there are a number of those old fashioned things called books that have these very basic wiring diagrams well documented, including the extra wires for the lights, which in this case appear to be LED's for directional lighting? Maybe some resistors hidden in some shrink wrap?
crossthedog Ugh. Once again I seem to have ignited a flame-war. Sorry guys. I thought this would be simple. I do hear the recommendation for correctly color-coding the wiring in locomotives, but as EVERYONE here knows, I'm sort of a permanent newbie, and I'm not looking to be a hero. For now, I just want the engine to run the direction it's supposed to, so I appreciate the simpler solution Sheldon has offered. But I don't resent anyone telling me they would bring the model up to NMRA standards. What I really want to avoid is damaging the engine. So to review, I think I am going to switch the red and black shorties. Again, thanks to all of you.
Ugh. Once again I seem to have ignited a flame-war. Sorry guys. I thought this would be simple. I do hear the recommendation for correctly color-coding the wiring in locomotives, but as EVERYONE here knows, I'm sort of a permanent newbie, and I'm not looking to be a hero. For now, I just want the engine to run the direction it's supposed to, so I appreciate the simpler solution Sheldon has offered. But I don't resent anyone telling me they would bring the model up to NMRA standards. What I really want to avoid is damaging the engine.
So to review, I think I am going to switch the red and black shorties.
Again, thanks to all of you.
Matt, the effect is the same, yes if it is easier to swap the two motor wires, that should fix it.
Wo. I go away for ten minutes and all the answers are here.
I was just going to add this photo to make things easier to see...
I've read through the DC Experts' comments several times.
Kevin, you seem to be saying reverse the connections of the short red and black wires (I assume these are what is meant by "motor wires").
Sheldon, I think you're saying that I should reverse connections on the wires coming up from the trucks. (These are all heat shrunk into unions with other wires, one end connecting to the short motor wires and the other end connecting in a menage-a-trois wires with the lighting wires and some green extensions that simply continue the lines between the trucks.) Will it have the same effect either way I do it?
Someone asked about the lights. They work correctly, lighting in reverse and forward motion, otherwise off.
Here is a schematic I sketched, in case there is still any question about what we're looking at:
richhotrain Sheldon, was that last post really necessary? Color coding makes a lot of sense, and that is at least one reason why the NMRA has such standards. If that loco was color coded correctly in the first place, it would be a lot easier to explain the wiring requirements now instead of that mess shown in the photo. Rich
Sheldon, was that last post really necessary? Color coding makes a lot of sense, and that is at least one reason why the NMRA has such standards. If that loco was color coded correctly in the first place, it would be a lot easier to explain the wiring requirements now instead of that mess shown in the photo.
NMRA color coding is geared toward DCC.
If the OP wants to color code, it would make MUCH more sense to wire the whole right side an positive terminal of the motor with red, and the whole left side with black, in keeping with the forward polarity.
But again, I would not be disassembling those trucks just to change those pickup wires from black to red. That is like inventing unnecessary work for ones self.
I'm sorry, I'm off my meds right now. If one more person says you just need to turn the loco around to make it run the other way, I could be like Goerge Carlin's guy who gets a bottle of Scope in the mail box.
richhotrain jjdamnit Hello All, What a challenge- -indeed! The color coding on the existing wiring would be a nightmare to diagnose/troubleshoot. I would completely disassemble the locomotive and upgrade the wiring to current NMRA standards, even if the final assembly is for DC. This is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear). Rich
jjdamnit Hello All, What a challenge- -indeed! The color coding on the existing wiring would be a nightmare to diagnose/troubleshoot. I would completely disassemble the locomotive and upgrade the wiring to current NMRA standards, even if the final assembly is for DC.
Hello All,
What a challenge- -indeed!
The color coding on the existing wiring would be a nightmare to diagnose/troubleshoot.
I would completely disassemble the locomotive and upgrade the wiring to current NMRA standards, even if the final assembly is for DC.
This is good advice on the color coding on the wires. Follow the NMRA standards and completely rewire the locomotive. Red wire for the right side power pickups (front and rear trucks), black wire for the left side power pickups (front and rear trucks). Orange and gray for the motor wires, blue, yellow and white for the lights (front and rear).
Why? He is not hooking it to a decoder?
He has no circuit board, he has no decoder? - that color code does little that he can otherwise simply observe?
I also rewire DC locos if I don't care for the type of lighting circuit it came with. Mostly I reuse what ever wire is there - the electrons don't care.
Respectfully, we are not wiring the space shuttle here. We are not even wiring a modern DCC locomotive with sound and ditch lights.
Worrying about NMRA color codes is a little over the top.
This is simply three wires on one side, and three wires on the other side that need to be correctly matched up - plus any lighing circuit which is likely also pretty simple.
I know a lot of technical stuff, and I also know what I don't know. When I don't know, I say I don't know, or I keep my mouth shut.
But I'm just a guy with a pickup, a gun and red tractor, who's little trains don't have any brains.
The OP asked what should have been a simple question, a legitimate question for a newby, once again muddied by missinformation?
Yes, it makes me a little testy when people make things harder than they are.
crossthedog "What could possibly go wrong"? There's no screw holding the trucks on. There's a kind of plastic cover over the axles, but not a clearly indicated means of removing this. Stix' diagram shows this cover but doesn't show any screw going through it from the bottom or anywhere else, that I can see. I've tried just pulling on the trucks, and prying at the cover, but don't want to break anything. Nothing is evident in the way of a fastener from the top side (under the hood) either. Does anyone know how to get these trucks off?
"What could possibly go wrong"?
There's no screw holding the trucks on. There's a kind of plastic cover over the axles, but not a clearly indicated means of removing this. Stix' diagram shows this cover but doesn't show any screw going through it from the bottom or anywhere else, that I can see. I've tried just pulling on the trucks, and prying at the cover, but don't want to break anything. Nothing is evident in the way of a fastener from the top side (under the hood) either.
Does anyone know how to get these trucks off?
How do you intend to swap the trucks without disconnecting the wires?
Swaping the trucks is not the answer. I don't own that model, or any Atlas locos, but I did work on a few years ago.
And from what I remember there is a pickup plate and wire coming from each side of the truck. If you hook up up the same wires in the same location after swaping the trucks, the loco will still run backwards.
Looking at your picture, those small black wires coming from the trucks, simply follow them up to where they join with each other and the motor wire.
Disconnect that connection for each side, and reconnect them to the opposite motor wire.
Is there lighing hooked up? does it work? What does it do when the engine runs?
So now that Kevin and I both have told you the same thing, and we BOTH are experianced DC operators, there you have it.
And for all the rest of you who never wired a DC layout, it is as simple as Kevin's diagram. If you are looking at the track, and rail closest to you is +, the train will move to your right, without ANY regard for what is the front or back of the loco.
If the rail farthest from you is +, the loco will move to your left.
This "East/West" fact of DC is why I choose to design my layouts so all viewer positions are from the same side of the track. Left is always west, right is always east.
All viewers are standing on the south side of the tracks, effectively looking north.
Even if I used DCC, I would design my layout this way to make understanding the flow of traffic easier for operators.
crossthedog"What could possibly go wrong"?
Matt... I looked closer at your picture... your locomotive was originally either DCC, or DCC ready, and someone either removed the light board or decoder. The frame is not part of the electrical circuit. This is clear because there are two lead wires on each truck.
You will need to reverse the leads directly on the motor.
Removing the trucks will be of no use at all, sorry.
I did not see this before because the wires, trucks, frame, and walkways are all black. Fortunately your picture was in good resolution,and when I blew it up, the situation became clear.
Found my graphic:
SeeYou190No. In DC operation, the rail which has positive effects which direction the locomotive runs. If the right rail is positive, the locomotive should run forward. Now imagine that you turn that locomotive 180 degrees, but do not change the direction switch on the power pack. Now positive is on the left rail so the locomotive will run backwards. Since the locomotive is facing the opposite way, physically it will move in the same direction. If the locomotive wiring is somehow reversed, it will run the "wrong" direction no matter which way it is facing.
P.S. I'm logging out of "work" in a minute, and unless I run into trouble swapping the trucks <insert Gif of some action movie hero saying "what could possibly go wrong" here> we will have more info shortly.
Got it. Thanks, Kevin. I started out ever so briefly in DC and then quickly, within a few weeks, switched to DCC. So, that directional issue always confused me.
richhotrainWouldn't turning the loco 180 degrees as Selector suggested have the same result as swapping the trucks which would be more time consuming?
No. In DC operation, the rail which has positive effects which direction the locomotive runs.
If the right rail is positive, the locomotive should run forward. Now imagine that you turn that locomotive 180 degrees, but do not change the direction switch on the power pack. Now positive is on the left rail so the locomotive will run backwards.
Since the locomotive is facing the opposite way, physically it will move in the same direction.
If the locomotive wiring is somehow reversed, it will run the "wrong" direction no matter which way it is facing.
selector If this engine goes in the same direction, no matter which way it is lifted, turned 180, and set back on the rails, it is a DC setup.
If this engine goes in the same direction, no matter which way it is lifted, turned 180, and set back on the rails, it is a DC setup.
SeeYou190 If it has a one piece frame, and the motor has one lead "grounded" to the frame, then most likely the trucks are reversed. Swap the trucks with one another and it should be OK.
If it has a one piece frame, and the motor has one lead "grounded" to the frame, then most likely the trucks are reversed. Swap the trucks with one another and it should be OK.
crossthedogVirtually all the Kato locos had a split frame. Although... this is made in China (says so on the chassis), so even though it's Atlas it wouldn't be a Kato engine, right? It would be the Sino-knock-off.
My Stewart F Units have Kato drives and split frames in HO. I do not know for sure if any other Kato built HO drives have split frames or not. The split frame was on all of my N scale Kato units, and it was a wonder. It allowed for a much heavier frame in N scale.
My Kato/Atlas RS-3 in N scale was a game changer. It was a smaller hood style locomotive that ran and pulled very well. They followed this up with the first good-pulling N scale GP ever.
In HO scale, the advantages are less obvious, and the additional concerns of a split frame might not be worth it.
A quick Google search found a picture of the Kato N scale RS-3 frame.
You can plainly see the two halves of the frame, and how this would be a miracle in N scale. Look at all the weight!
The split frames I have seen in HO are a lot less solid.
If you reverse the trucks on a split frame it will have no effect. If you reverse the trucks on a "typical" frame the locomotive will run reversed.
I would try swapping the trucks front-and-rear first. If that is the problem, it is a straightforward fix for the problem.
crossthedog I just a while ago said I was going to try reversing the trucks, but I wanted to get an answer about what a "split frame" is before I try that. Kevin said if it's a split frame then reversing the trucks won't work, and that virtually all the Kato locos had a split frame.
I just a while ago said I was going to try reversing the trucks, but I wanted to get an answer about what a "split frame" is before I try that. Kevin said if it's a split frame then reversing the trucks won't work, and that virtually all the Kato locos had a split frame.